Only what 3 black people were named?
So apparently some Army bases are getting renamed
- Thread starter King Arts
- Start date
And how many Natives?
Airedale260
Well-known member
Yeah, that’s what I mean. Lee is the only one I really object to (Cavazos…well, Hood was a complete idiot as well so eh). Eisenhower is a no-brainer, but I think Hood should have been named for Pershing given that Pershing was a cav guy.
Airedale260
Well-known member
So, I saw this point on another site, but someone pointed out that the current names, with the possible exception of Fort Lee, aren’t generally associated by Army personnel (or most people, really) with Confederate officers.
Fort Bragg: Home of the airborne and special forces.
Fort Hood: Home of the cavalry
Fort Benning: Home of the infantry and the Rangers.
Fort Rucker: Home of Army Aviation
Fort Gordon: Home of…the Eisenhower Medical Center? “Fort what?”
Fort Pickett: Home of…the Virginia State Police Academy.
Fort A.P. Hill: Home of…some training area for the Army and the Virginia National Guard in particular.
Fort Lee: Okay, maybe. OTOH Lee personally was a very competent officer and also the only guy in West Point history to not get ANY demerits.
Fort Polk: Really, it’s better known as “Fort Puke.” How exactly is that honoring a Confederate? Or anyone, for that matter?
Edit: If they were really serious, they’d go for names like Ridgway (Who, I’d point out, was commanding general of the 82nd and a war hero), Pershing, Patton, Murphy…but this is about “sticking it to the Confederates” more than anything else. They basically looked up “OK let’s look for any women or minorities who did something of note” rather than actual serious consideration. Of course, the fact that it’s a Navy officer overseeing this makes me wonder if said officer actually cares or is just sticking it to the Army deliberately (sorry, @Sailor.X but I really don’t think Navy telling Army what to do in this case is really credible).
Fort Bragg: Home of the airborne and special forces.
Fort Hood: Home of the cavalry
Fort Benning: Home of the infantry and the Rangers.
Fort Rucker: Home of Army Aviation
Fort Gordon: Home of…the Eisenhower Medical Center? “Fort what?”
Fort Pickett: Home of…the Virginia State Police Academy.
Fort A.P. Hill: Home of…some training area for the Army and the Virginia National Guard in particular.
Fort Lee: Okay, maybe. OTOH Lee personally was a very competent officer and also the only guy in West Point history to not get ANY demerits.
Fort Polk: Really, it’s better known as “Fort Puke.” How exactly is that honoring a Confederate? Or anyone, for that matter?
Edit: If they were really serious, they’d go for names like Ridgway (Who, I’d point out, was commanding general of the 82nd and a war hero), Pershing, Patton, Murphy…but this is about “sticking it to the Confederates” more than anything else. They basically looked up “OK let’s look for any women or minorities who did something of note” rather than actual serious consideration. Of course, the fact that it’s a Navy officer overseeing this makes me wonder if said officer actually cares or is just sticking it to the Army deliberately (sorry, @Sailor.X but I really don’t think Navy telling Army what to do in this case is really credible).
I mean a few of them are actually not PoC.
A few are white MoH recipients.
Also Fort Gordon is Home of Cyber
bintananth
behind a desk
My wife thinks that Lee was actually worse than McClellan because he couldn't actually defeat McClellan's caution and thinks that he was way worse than JE Johnston (i.e.:"Retreatin' Joe") because Lee turned JE Johnston's plans for the Seven Days into a clusterfuck where the Union was already retreating into pretty much nothing but Confederate losses.
Yeah it's just massive virtue signaling. And honestly the renames are pretty junk in general and have nothing to do with the Fort's purpose, history or location.
Only ones that seem somewhat relevant renaming Fort Benning after Colonel Hal Moore... I don't mind that renaming. He actually served there and was an iconic for the Army in Helicopter Operations, Airborne and Infantry in general. And Fort Hood. I guess General Cavazos is at least from Texas so that's something.
But seriously, they are renaming Fort AP Hill after some random fucking New Yorker because she happens to be a Woman "first" (First Female Military Surgeon). There's apparently no militarily significant Virginians to rename the Fort after. Fort AP Hill has nothing to do primarily with Battlefield Medicine so that's even more bizarre.
The firt hood new name at least is from Texas
bintananth
behind a desk
Brevet Lieutenant General Winfield Scott was from Virginia. The second person promoted to Lieutenant General after George Washington. The third was US Grant.
"Old Fuss and Feathers".
He was in charge of the entire US Army for two decades and the Union basically followed his outline of "here's what we need to do" (i.e.: The Anaconda Plan) during the Civil War. In 1861 he was to old for field command and had to retire.
Airedale260
Well-known member
That was sarcasm about Gordon, although I thought Meade was home of Second Army/USARCYBER. Anyway…
Novosel is an excellent choice to rename Rucker, given what Novosel actually did, especially how he became a CWO4 to serve in Vietnam. And my main objection to Cavazos is you’re naming the home of the Cavalry after an infantry officer. If anything, Benning would be a better pick to honor him, and renaming Hood for Moore would fit since Moore did command both part of the 7th Cav and commanded 1st Cavalry as well. OTOH, Moore is buried at Benning (Cavazos is buried at Fort Sam Houston/JB San Antonio).
Henry Johnson to replace Polk I’m fine with as well -the guy was a badass (TR Junior even recognized the guy as such). The problem is that Polk is a dump, so it’s kind of like “Maybe rename A.P. Hill or Lee after him instead.”
But Mary Walker, even though she was brave in going back and forth between lines, I’m not sure she really fits. In fact the Army tried rescinding her MoH because her actions didn’t actually meet the criteria*, but there were complaints about it so the Army reinstated it.
*-She was never in direct contact with the enemy, which is an absolute prerequisite for the MoH. From what I understand, it should have been a DSM but I’m not sure that that existed at the time. Also, Civil War MoHs seem to have been handed out more often than during WWI and on, so it’s almost like a separate decoration.
Gregg and Adams…yeah, they had tough careers battling racism and whatnot (and Gregg’s logistics work is impressive, I’ll be the first to agree), but it’s not like Cavazos, Moore, or Johnson where you can point to impressive acts of valor during their careers. This one just feels like pandering.
And honestly, Bragg should be renamed for Ridgway (or maybe Alvin York, but Ridgway has close connections to the Airborne and was a senior commander in wartime, etc. Eisenhower fits as a replacement for Gordon, given that Ike was a staff/support guy (which is what Gordon is home to), but I’m conflicted because Ike has a friggin’ carrier named after him already.
Lee was a better battlefield commander, and indeed one of the best on either side. The problem he had was that Confederate logistics, like the Confederacy itself, was absolute shit. So even when he won, he couldn’t capitalize on any gains.
McClellan was basically the opposite…excelled at logistics but was a shit tier commander. And he’d been billeted as “The Young Napoleon” coming out of West Point, which he most definitely was not. But he had enough political clout to make it difficult for Lincoln to replace him until he fucked up so bad even his most ardent supporters had to concede he wasn’t the man for the job.
So, “better general” is subjective. As far as the Seven Days campaign went, my understanding is the basic plan was sound enough, but McClellan didn’t do what Lee expected, and Lee hadn’t given any thoughts to contingency planning, which is a glaring problem. But that is mainly arrogance being his undoing, rather than McClellan being a better general.
I’d argue that Grant was Lee’s superior, though, because even if he wasn’t the battlefield genius Lee was, Grant was still rock solid and knew how to adapt (as well as not only having superior logistics but the sense to know how to best use them).
But that’s kind of OT.
See my comments above on what’s relevant and what isn’t, I just think Walker, Gregg-Adams, and “Liberty” are the only truly objectionable ones. Meanwhile, yes, they had Marshall, Ridgway, and Bradley on their lists as well, but not Patton, Pershing, or MacArthur (who all had controversies, sure, but not to the degree of “Actually took up arms against the U.S.”). Or, for that matter, Audie Murphy, who in addition to being a Texan is widely considered one of the biggest badasses in all of American history. So much so that pretty much every soldier knows who he was.
Like, I’m not opposed in principle to the renamings. The problem I have is the more I dig into this, I get the sense that they missed the forest for the trees (like Gregg and Adams, who were logisticians and so it fits for Lee, which is a logistics oriented location), but ignored names like George Marshall, who not only was a five-star general but the author of the Marshall Plan and who restored military faith in civilian control over DoD after Louis Johnson (and Truman) completely shat the bed. And he was still a serving Army officer at the time, as five-stars were permanent active duty. Sure, Marshall wasn’t logistics focused per se, but he’s George Fucking Marshall.
Fort Gordan is home is US Cybercom and Fort Meade is home of the NSA/SIGINT.
I only know own this as it is my field yo know these two and are very common places we go.
I think York would have been great for Bragg because 82nd, same woth Murphy for Hood, since Murphy is so well known there is a whole society based around him, and he is basically a Texas state hero.
I don't mind Ike being there for Gordon. Just I think should pick people from that state.
bintananth
behind a desk
One of McClellan's greatest strengths was logistics. The Union didn't really need to worry about things like "do we have enough shoes in the proper sizes so that everyone has a pair" at a time when mass produced shoes didn't come in right-and-left pairs.
Gettysburg happened because the Confederates were looking for supplies.
General Henry Heth said:
Lee absolutely so sucked at logistics that my wife probably wouldn't give him the time of day when it comes to preparing a meal.
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Still doesn't mean naming the Bases after the City or Region they are located is bad idea.
Army has never done that, they have always been named after someone.
bintananth
behind a desk
Fort Vincennes would disagree with that statement ...
Vincennes was the first Capital of Indiana.
You mean a fort that was a joint base and not uniquely american?
bintananth
behind a desk
No. I mean the 18th century one that was used during the American Revolution. Vincennes, Indiana was the first Indiana state capital.
For someone claiming to be military intelligence ... you are a complete idiot.
Airedale260
Well-known member
It depends, sometimes they do but for the most part it’s individuals. The Army can’t exactly name ships after people.
Fort Huachuca disagrees with you, as do Fort Indiantown Gap and (former) Fort Monmouth.
It’s rare but it happens.