AnimalNoodles
Well-known member
Tolkiens Law is proven correct again
Amazon Prime Rings of Power: Lord of the Rings on Amazon
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Skallagrim
Well-known member
Thinking about it, I keep coming back to the conclusion that if they hate Tolkien so much (and they clearly do), they should just have the guts to straight-up adapt The Last Ringbearer. I completely disagree with the message espoused in that published fanfic, but at least it's a genuine deconstruction of The Lord of the Rings. It's way more honest than trying to poison the genuine article.
But then again, honesty should not be expected from the toxic creatures behind this project...
But then again, honesty should not be expected from the toxic creatures behind this project...
Im curious: what's that about?
Skallagrim
Well-known member
The Last Ringbearer is essentially published fanfic, and of dubious legality in the West. It was published in Russia, where copyright is a mere suggestion. The book aims to be a thorough deconstruction of Tolkien's work, depicting the elves and wizards as evil and manipulative. The humans and hobbits are their gullible stooges. Religious is all false, and a tool used to manipulate the masses. Mordor, meanwhile, is an atheistic paradise of science, progress, rationality and meritocracy. So obviously, the evil reactionaries want to destroy it.
If Robespierre and Marx had teamed up to write a book that tries to invert -- and, yes, subvert -- not only Tolkien's world-building but also his ethical and metaphysical premises... it would be The Last Ringbearer.
I'm about to post a bit more about it in the SW thread, because I see an interesting connection there. (And not the overly-obvious one, either!)
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
If somebody appears to be deliberately using a losing strategy over and over, chances are they're playing a different ruleset, possibly an entirely different game, than you think they are.
KilroywasNOTHere
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Let me make something clear right off the bat. Anytime you subvert or deconstruct a series you have to change some of the lore from the original intention of the author because people do naturally write their biases into their stories. Tolkien was devoted catholic, Lucas was a love child of the 60s and it shows in their respective works. With Star Wars in particular The EU did fundamentally change Lucas's narrative especially in terms of the nature of the force. Gone was new age "Property and attachment is theft and reproduction is abuse" and replaced with "No emotion and attachment are not what lead to the darkside, Obsession, narcissism and corruption do." and it worked because it made for better stories. *Cough cough clone wars and Mandalorian wars cough cough*
You could theoretically make LOTR more morally complicated, but you'd have to be extra careful and making sure to write nuance. if you simply reversed the alignments, you'd just be making the same "Writing mistakes" as the story your trying to deconstruct. Not to mention you'd have to make sure to explain what parts that "The forces of light" and by extension us were either missing or misunderstanding some key information and have Sauron straight own up to pass mistakes. Like getting the numanorians to try to invade the Undying lands.
It could be done. I'll try to list some examples off the top of my head.
Sauron attempted to conquer the free peoples of middle earth before the alliance of men and elves resisted him: Sauron conquered the east to stop the massive tribal infighting and when the men of the west saw this they feared that they would be conquered and convinced the elves to help them invade Morder in a preemptive strike not realizing that the East conquest of the East was mostly bloodless and the quality of life was greatly improved in terms of economy and infostructure (We don't see anything about the easterlings except for their armies so that gives enough of a blank slate to work with) and that Sauron really had no interest in the affairs of the west.
The orcs were once elves but became corrupted by Sauron: The Orcs that reside in Mordor were elves who fell in love with middle earth and wished to settle into middle earth and possibly intermarry with its inhabitants. However, their metaphysical and immortal nature made this impossible as all elves who do not give up their immortality or return to their homeland are destined to fade. Sauron was able to find a way to give the elves a more corporeal body that could bear their immortality, but the process by its nature greatly changed them. while the Wizards see this as a form of corruption, the orcs themselves take pride in their forms as it's an ultimate symbol of their resolve to keep that which they love, and they have a proud code of honor.
Keep in mind these are Mordor orcs specifically we are talking about, the goblins of the wild and orcs of Saruman are much more feral but neither Sauron's doing.
The Ringwraiths are shadows of the men they once were: This was primarily a way to punish them for misusing their rings of power and becoming arrogant and self-absorbed. They were turned into Ringwraiths to learn humility. Nearly all of them learned said lesson save one (the witch king) plus covert work is a lot easier to accomplish when you can move as swiftly and a silently as a shadow.
Sauron invaded Gondor:
1. Gondor declared war on Mordor first.
2. You have seen Denathor right?
The Ring of power corrupts the hearts of those that wield it:
Power does not corrupt it enables. The funny thing about power is that those who want it and take it for themselves are typically the ones who are not fit to use it. Meanwhile those who can use it without being "Corrupted" by it do not desire it or will use it openly. Golem was always a selfish slimy worm, Isildur and Boromir were always self-absorbed with an overblown sense of importance. Aragorn wisely rejected the temptation to bear the ring because he knew that part of him deep down wanted glory for himself and his people. Even Bilbo and Frodo for all of their virtues still desired glory and no wizard or High Elf would be fit to bear the ring as they see themselves as mighty Shepards destined to guide the poor mortal sheep.
Meanwhile those like Samwise and Tom Bombadil had little to no trouble resisting the ring as they had everything they could possibly want.
The story could be less a fairy tale about good and evil and more a debate and philosophical discussion. Is it better to be pure even if living in a constant state of pure goodness means living in ignorance and having no sense of the world around you while always living under someone's wing (As the hobbits lived) or is it better to be independent self-actualized and wise even if the journey leaves scared battle hardened and not near as pleasing to the eyes or pleasant to the ears? (As this new theoretical take on orcs would be) There doesn't have to be a blatant right or wrong answer in fact it may be better for the reader to decide for themselves.
to be fair I don't think Tolkien would shy away from exploring such a story. he was friends with the man that gave us this quote Afterall.
I just don't think it's a story he wanted to explore in LOTR.
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This is CS Lewis but other wise, absoultely excellent.
KilroywasNOTHere
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KilroywasNOTHere
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In truth my gripe isn't that these people are "Messing with the purity of Tolkien's work." my gripe is I don't trust these people to make remotely entertaining stories. We saw what happened to game of thrones when they ran out of source material and had to rely on their own talents. I don't care if this is an alternate universe or not. If it sucks, I won't continue to watch it.
On the matter of Galadriel, it is key to point out that while she is a background character in LOTR and mostly just *implied* to be powerful, the Silmarillion did give her a good deal more backstory.
She was a prominent and influential figure among the Noldorin elves in Valinor who defied the Valar and sailed to Middle-Earth; however, she did not join in Feanor's dread oath to recover the Silmarils at *any* cost, and instead joined the group of Noldor led by her uncle Fingolfin, who traveled separately from Feanor, did not participate in the Kinslaying, and were primarily motivated by wishing to carve out kingdoms for themselves as opposed to recovering the Silmarils. At the end of the First Age, she was the *only* remaining leader of the Noldorin elves who did not either die or accept the forgiveness of the Valar and return to the West, something she explicitly did out of her great pride and arrogance.
Despite having come to Middle-Earth with the intent of establishing her own realm, Galadriel did not actually do so until the Second Age, when she founded Eregion and ruled it until she was succeded at some point by Celebrimbor (yes, that Celebrimbor). After that she travelled through Khazad-Dum to Lothlorien and settled there. She became the ruler of Lothlorien after its last king (Amroth) chose to abandon his people and sail to the Undying Lands at the demand of his girlfriend.
In the Third Age, Galadriel mostly remains in Lothlorien and hence is mostly "offscreen". However, she *actually did* play a pivotal role in the founding of Rohan, using her power to drive back the darkness of Dol Guldur and allow Eorl The Young and his army of horsemen to pass safely from the North to Gondor. She scared the fuck out of the Rohirrim by her sheer power, and they pretty much quietly feared her ever after, something that we see lasting into references in LoTR. During the time of LoTR, Sauron launched three major assaults out of Dol Guldur against Lothlorien and Mirkwood, which were driven back by Galadriel's power. Galadriel subsequently counter-attacked Dol Guldur and ultimately annihilated it, personally shattering and razing the dark fortress.
In other words: while there is no basis in Tolkien's writings for the stuff they're adding now, Tolkien's writings *do* in fact establish Galadriel as a supremely capable warrior who *did* fight in battle (albeit rarely) and was one of *the* most powerful Elves in the entire history of the world -- so powerful in fact that it is explicitly stated that she could have only been defeated if Sauron himself directly took the field against her.
She was a prominent and influential figure among the Noldorin elves in Valinor who defied the Valar and sailed to Middle-Earth; however, she did not join in Feanor's dread oath to recover the Silmarils at *any* cost, and instead joined the group of Noldor led by her uncle Fingolfin, who traveled separately from Feanor, did not participate in the Kinslaying, and were primarily motivated by wishing to carve out kingdoms for themselves as opposed to recovering the Silmarils. At the end of the First Age, she was the *only* remaining leader of the Noldorin elves who did not either die or accept the forgiveness of the Valar and return to the West, something she explicitly did out of her great pride and arrogance.
Despite having come to Middle-Earth with the intent of establishing her own realm, Galadriel did not actually do so until the Second Age, when she founded Eregion and ruled it until she was succeded at some point by Celebrimbor (yes, that Celebrimbor). After that she travelled through Khazad-Dum to Lothlorien and settled there. She became the ruler of Lothlorien after its last king (Amroth) chose to abandon his people and sail to the Undying Lands at the demand of his girlfriend.
In the Third Age, Galadriel mostly remains in Lothlorien and hence is mostly "offscreen". However, she *actually did* play a pivotal role in the founding of Rohan, using her power to drive back the darkness of Dol Guldur and allow Eorl The Young and his army of horsemen to pass safely from the North to Gondor. She scared the fuck out of the Rohirrim by her sheer power, and they pretty much quietly feared her ever after, something that we see lasting into references in LoTR. During the time of LoTR, Sauron launched three major assaults out of Dol Guldur against Lothlorien and Mirkwood, which were driven back by Galadriel's power. Galadriel subsequently counter-attacked Dol Guldur and ultimately annihilated it, personally shattering and razing the dark fortress.
In other words: while there is no basis in Tolkien's writings for the stuff they're adding now, Tolkien's writings *do* in fact establish Galadriel as a supremely capable warrior who *did* fight in battle (albeit rarely) and was one of *the* most powerful Elves in the entire history of the world -- so powerful in fact that it is explicitly stated that she could have only been defeated if Sauron himself directly took the field against her.
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Note that Dol Guldur was Sauron's base of operations when he first returned to Middle-Earth as "The Necromancer" -- it's actually the same place that is portrayed in that scene from The Hobbit when Galadriel, Elrond, and Saruman rescue Gandalf from Sauron, although that scene was completely made-up for that movie and doesn't happen in the actual Tolkien timeline. In Tolkien's timeline, Gandalf was never actually captured by Sauron's forces; the entire White Council (Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Elrond, and Galadriel) attacked Dol Guldur (which was an intact and functional fortress, not an ancient ruin) and drove Sauron out of it.
It was originally the capital city of the Silvan elves (i.e. Thranduil and Legolas' people) during the First and Second Ages, but was abandoned prior to the War of the Last Alliance (i.e. the great war of the Second Age, climaxing in the prologue battle of LOTR when Sauron was defeated and lost the One Ring). Thranduil's father Oropher wished to avoid the growing threat of Mordor and distance his people from the dwarves of Khazad-Dum, so they moved northwards several times and ultimately settled in Mirkwood, where they remained throughout the Third Age.
Towards the end of Return of the King, Legolas comments that it would be useless to send for aid from his father's realm and/or the dwarves around the Lonely Mountain, as war was already coming to them. The former refers to the Sauron's orcs attacking Mirkwood and Lothlorien from Dol Guldur and the latter to the men of the Easterlings who were allied with Sauron, attacking the Lonely Mountain.
As I mentioned in my prior post, these attacks from Dol Guldur were repulsed by Galadriel, and she then led a counter-attack and single-handedly threw down the ancient fortress -- a rather more impressive showing than the situation in The Hobbit where she is cornered by Sauron and the Nine while trying to rescue Gandalf and has to be rescued in turn by Saruman and Elrond, then flares her power against Sauron only to pass out. The text says that she "threw down the walls and laid bare the pits" of Dol Guldur, and that there was nothing left of the entire fortress after she unleashed her power.
It was originally the capital city of the Silvan elves (i.e. Thranduil and Legolas' people) during the First and Second Ages, but was abandoned prior to the War of the Last Alliance (i.e. the great war of the Second Age, climaxing in the prologue battle of LOTR when Sauron was defeated and lost the One Ring). Thranduil's father Oropher wished to avoid the growing threat of Mordor and distance his people from the dwarves of Khazad-Dum, so they moved northwards several times and ultimately settled in Mirkwood, where they remained throughout the Third Age.
Towards the end of Return of the King, Legolas comments that it would be useless to send for aid from his father's realm and/or the dwarves around the Lonely Mountain, as war was already coming to them. The former refers to the Sauron's orcs attacking Mirkwood and Lothlorien from Dol Guldur and the latter to the men of the Easterlings who were allied with Sauron, attacking the Lonely Mountain.
As I mentioned in my prior post, these attacks from Dol Guldur were repulsed by Galadriel, and she then led a counter-attack and single-handedly threw down the ancient fortress -- a rather more impressive showing than the situation in The Hobbit where she is cornered by Sauron and the Nine while trying to rescue Gandalf and has to be rescued in turn by Saruman and Elrond, then flares her power against Sauron only to pass out. The text says that she "threw down the walls and laid bare the pits" of Dol Guldur, and that there was nothing left of the entire fortress after she unleashed her power.
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I don't argue otherwise, but it's plain that even if you are unable to see the obvious allegories what time period Lewis lived in when he wrote it.
KilroywasNOTHere
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Unpopular Opinion: So I looked up this "The Last Ringbearer or whatever it's called. The summary reads too much like a tongue & cheek parody to be a proper deconstruction ("crafting the Final Solution to the Mordorian problem." Really dude?) the Tolkien estate apparently considers it an abomination that disrespects Tolkien's legacy but honestly, it's hard to take the Tolkien-estate seriously about artistic purity after they put their approval stamp on things like this Amazon series or the Shadow of Mordor duology.
I mean I don't care about artistic purity myself; (the only way to keep something pure is to never let anyone see it) I just find it ironic and hypocritical on the part of Middle Earth Enterprises.
I mean I don't care about artistic purity myself; (the only way to keep something pure is to never let anyone see it) I just find it ironic and hypocritical on the part of Middle Earth Enterprises.
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Skallagrim
Well-known member
Christopher Tolkien ended up allowing certain things -- and regretting it.
But J.R.R. Tolkien himself surely cannot be accused of hypocrisy. He died before all this nonsense started, and there is no doubt at all that he'd never have put his stamp of approval on it.
KilroywasNOTHere
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I thought he was still alive when the animated movies was being made. Was that his son?
Skallagrim
Well-known member
He died five years beforehand.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
They actually asked him multiple times IIRC for a right to make adaptations, and he refused them every single time.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
Ah my mistake, sorry.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
In this context, the entertainment industry seems to be playing with the understanding that money is merely a means to an end; and that end, is power. Which can be gained more easily through other means, by controlling what the masses think. Besides; it's not like money is actually worth anything anymore. Not when their friends in the government keeps printing it whenever the establishment needs more.