Politicians and Government Cringe Thread

Spartan303

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Osaul
It's still terrible framing for CPAC to use.

Simply demanding that equal funds be sent to secure our own border would make the point just as aggressively, without also pissing off the parts of the right that support the war in Ukraine.

Perhaps. But that's not a make or break deal. And maybe CPAC should clarify or fix their messaging. I don't know. I'm certainly sympathetic to Ukraine and what they're going through, but I'm tired of the NeoCons and Neolibs constantly doing this shit to us. People aren't just frustrated about this. People are angry.


I understand that phrasing the annexation and current status of those areas as 'Ukrainian occupied' helps lend legitimacy to Putin's claims and acts like those regions now belong to Russia.

I also understand 'fiscal conservatism' and complaints around it are a mostly a farce, and have been since we went off the Gold Standard to fiat currency the Federal Reserve can manipulate at will to do whatever they want.

The old ideology of 'fiscal conservatism' being the old standby for GOP rhetoric doesn't hold much sway outside the hardcore GOP base, and when the complaint is made to seem like aiding Ukraine is 'gift-giving', it makes it so much easier to paint the GOP as the party of Russia appeasers to much of the public, particularly after the years of the 'Trump-Russia Collusion Hoax' was spammed by the media.

Except annexation is exactly what Putin has done. And they'll stay annexed until they're liberated. That's not appeasement, that's just reality. And I resent the accusation. You are deliberately taking the worst possible take on this and running with it as fact. I thought you weren't a Leftist anymore? Cause they're the only ones who really do that.

As for Fiscal Conservatism not holding sway outside the core GOP base...well, that's part of the fucking problem, now isn't it? Do people not understand how money works? We are so in debt that our grand children will be middle age by the time it's paid off. If it's ever paid off. Spending and printing money has been so reckless and out of control we are in serious danger of an economic collapse that makes the great depression look like a day at the park. I bet you it'll suddenly be on everyone's mind then when every penny and dime is precious. As it damn well should have been from the start.

Ukraine will be a forgotten sideshow if and when that happens.
 

Sobek

Disgusting Scalie
Yeah this sounds stupid. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that most people worried about the domestic time bombs and problems piling up aggressively don't give a shit. Of those on the GOP side who do care about Ukraine, most would be ok with the message out of a realpolitik sense of not antagonizing the larger block of the party who might still help Ukraine if you pay more attention to home, whole the other side of the coin are the Neocons, Cheneys and Bushes who desperatly want it to be 2004 again.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Except annexation is exactly what Putin has done. And they'll stay annexed until they're liberated. That's not appeasement, that's just reality. And I resent the accusation. You are deliberately taking the worst possible take on this and running with it as fact. I thought you weren't a Leftist anymore? Cause they're the only ones who really do that.
They are not 'annexed' in anyone's view but Russia's, and I guess CPAC's, and treating the farce of the referendum's as anything close to legit is a massive mistake on CPAC's part.

And this isn't me being a 'Leftist', this is me existing outside GOP echochambers most of the time, and seeing how this sort of messaging is likely to give the Left a wonderful chunk of ammo to add to their (previously mostly fictional) array of 'The GOP are Russia appeasers/Russia-friendly' stories.

PR doesn't have to be true to be effective, the Dems have proven that for years, and now CPAC just handed them a weapon against GOP that needs no spin or lies to push, just basic reading comprehension.

This was a massive unforced error and the Dems are likely to have a field day with it.
As for Fiscal Conservatism not holding sway outside the core GOP base...well, that's part of the fucking problem, now isn't it? Do people not understand how money works? We are so in debt that our grand children will be middle age by the time it's paid off. If it's ever paid off. Spending and printing money has been so reckless and out of control we are in serious danger of an economic collapse that makes the great depression look like a day at the park. I bet you it'll suddenly be on everyone's mind then when every penny and dime is precious. As it damn well should have been from the start.
This again ignores the role the Federal Reserve plays in screwing around with money via interest rates and their leverage on Wall Street, the impacts of going off the Gold Standard to fiat currency, and ignores that sovereign debt is not the same thing as personal debt.

It is also once trying to make this about the populace you and other parts of the old school GOP wish you were dealing with, instead adapting GOP messaging and tactics to the populace you actually have to deal with. Just because something plays great with Boomer-cons and the old school GOP base does not mean it is the same situation for the general election and the wider populace.
Ukraine will be a forgotten sideshow if and when that happens.
I highly doubt it.

Particularly given Putin's nuclear saber rattling and Ukraine's current bid for expedited NATO membership.

We also are no where near that sort of economic collapse; short of actually having a nuclear exchange or natural catastrophe that destroys the physical infrastructure keeping things going, the Federal Reserve and their tools will keep our economy chugging along, even if not 'well'.
 

Spartan303

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Osaul
They are not 'annexed' in anyone's view but Russia's, and I guess CPAC's, and treating the farce of the referendum's as anything close to legit is a massive mistake on CPAC's part.

And this isn't me being a 'Leftist', this is me existing outside GOP echochambers most of the time, and seeing how this sort of messaging is likely to give the Left a wonderful chunk of ammo to add to their (previously mostly fictional) array of 'The GOP are Russia appeasers/Russia-friendly' stories.

PR doesn't have to be true to be effective, the Dems have proven that for years, and now CPAC just handed them a weapon against GOP that needs no spin or lies to push, just basic reading comprehension.

This was a massive unforced error and the Dems are likely to have a field day with it.


I don't like it any more than you do, but reality on the ground is what it is. Is this annexation legitimate? No. From the looks of it, CPAC isn't saying that either. But Russia just came in and took that land and made it their own because they had the strength and will to do it. Then tried to legitimize it with a joke of a referendum. No one is buying it, bur until the Ukrainians can mount the strength to retake their stolen lands then that's the situation as it is. All I see is CPAC acknowledging that. Even Dr. Steve Turley, a man I respect and admire is stating the obvious. He certainly sounds like he's shilling for Russia at times but when you actually listen to what he's saying, he's most definitely not.




again ignores the role the Federal Reserve plays in screwing around with money via interest rates and their leverage on Wall Street, the impacts of going off the Gold Standard to fiat currency, and ignores that sovereign debt is not the same thing as personal debt.

It is also once trying to make this about the populace you and other parts of the old school GOP wish you were dealing with, instead adapting GOP messaging and tactics to the populace you actually have to deal with. Just because something plays great with Boomer-cons and the old school GOP base does not mean it is the same situation for the general election and the wider populace.

I'm not a fan of the Federal Reserve, so you're barking up the wrong tree. But you seem to have an issue with Populism. Let me tell you, Populism seems to be the way to go as it's winning elections, and when Trump was in office, gave us the strongest economy in decades. That's not something you just casually sneer at like you seem to be doing.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
I don't like it any more than you do, but reality on the ground is what it is. Is this annexation legitimate? No. From the looks of it, CPAC isn't saying that either. But Russia just came in and took that land and made it their own because they had the strength and will to do it. Then tried to legitimize it with a joke of a referendum. No one is buying it, bur until the Ukrainians can mount the strength to retake their stolen lands then that's the situation as it is. All I see is CPAC acknowledging that. Even Dr. Steve Turley, a man I respect and admire is stating the obvious. He certainly sounds like he's shilling for Russia at times but when you actually listen to what he's saying, he's most definitely not.
It does not matter if Russia recognizes them as such, and saying "Ukrainian Occupied" instead of "illegally occupied Ukrainian soil" gives implicit legitimacy to Russia's annexation claims, even as battles continue in those regions.

And making it seem like an 'either/or situation' for aid for Ukraine or funds for the border, when you know that it's not Ukraine's fault the Dem's are shitheads about border security here, and treats the critical aid to Ukraine as 'gifts'...it's like the GOP wants to completely ignore the ongoing PR impact of the 'Russian Collusion Hoax'; we know it's bullshit, but a lot of the public doesn't.
I'm not a fan of the Federal Reserve, so you're barking up the wrong tree. But you seem to have an issue with Populism. Let me tell you, Populism seems to be the way to go as it's winning elections, and when Trump was in office, gave us the strongest economy in decades. That's not something you just casually sneer at like you seem to be doing.
This isn't about liking or disliking populism, and thinking it is completely misses the point.

The Federal Reserve is what effectively governs US monetary and economic policy, not the White House or Wall Street, and sovereign debt does not operate like personal/household debt, and hasn't since at least when we broke from the Gold Standard towards the fiat USD/petro-dollar.

Populism is still a winning move, however that does not mean the GOP/CPAC cannot make bone headed moves that sour the populace to them all on their own, with no help or twisting from the Dems, as they did here.
 

Spartan303

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Osaul
It does not matter if Russia recognizes them as such, and saying "Ukrainian Occupied" instead of "illegally occupied Ukrainian soil" gives implicit legitimacy to Russia's annexation claims, even as battles continue in those regions.

And making it seem like an 'either/or situation' for aid for Ukraine or funds for the border, when you know that it's not Ukraine's fault the Dem's are shitheads about border security here, and treats the critical aid to Ukraine as 'gifts'...it's like the GOP wants to completely ignore the ongoing PR impact of the 'Russian Collusion Hoax'; we know it's bullshit, but a lot of the public doesn't.


You're arguing semantics and perception which can dispelled by asking pointed or open ended questions. Still, at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you think or even what I think. Russia came in like a bully who stole Ukraines land. They took it, they currently own it and Ukraine hasn't yet taken it back. I'm sure they will given time, bur for now you're arguing semantics that may no longer apply in a few weeks.
This isn't about liking or disliking populism, and thinking it is completely misses the point.

The Federal Reserve is what effectively governs US monetary and economic policy, not the White House or Wall Street, and sovereign debt does not operate like personal/household debt, and hasn't since at least when we broke from the Gold Standard towards the fiat USD/petro-dollar.

Populism is still a winning move, however that does not mean the GOP/CPAC cannot make bone headed moves that sour the populace to them all on their own, with no help or twisting from the Dems, as they did here.

I've made myself clear on my thoughts in the Federal Reserve several times now. I'm not going to defend them and think it should be dismantled. But if your saying that populism misses the point then you sir are the one missing the point as it's at the very heart of all these issues. This is the people vs the establishment. For Decades the Establishment has governed in its own interests at the expense of the people. Trump changed that, which is why he's so dangerous to them.

Ukraine is at the heart of what the Establishment wants. Because there's some crooked shit going on there, which has been brought up concerning Joe Biden, his Son and Burisma. I'm almost certain wlthats only the tip of the ice berg too.

I'm rooting for Ukraine and so are many on the right as I think what's happening to them is wrong. But I'm tired of the lies and excuses our own government is giving us in order to send money we don't have and will never get back to fight a proxy war that has the potential to go Nuclear. Right now our own government looks more like a threat to our freedom and livelyhood than Russia does.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Umm spartan you do realize that Putin saying those annexed areas are Russia is dangerous? If the war was over it’s one thing, but if Ukraine moves in on what Russia considers “Russian land” they might use nukes to defend “their territory” that is the danger.
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
And? If you has even bothered to pay attention to anything Republicans say you'd know the answer to this already. We've sent to Ukraine between 15 to 30 Billion in aid for them to defend their border, yet the Demonrats in Congress and their Rino allies couldn't be bothered to spare 10 Billion to secure our own! We are also 30 Trillion in debt and Congress is spending our money like they don't have a care in the world or any fucks to give about how we feel on it. We can not afford this, yet they don't care. Our Economy is in the toilet and yet Biden just gave tens of billions to help the Ukrainian economy out of its slump! At our expense, when we can't afford it. Do you not get it!? Is this so hard to understand? People are fucking tired of this shit! We have sympathy for Ukraine and what they're going through, but we can't help anyone of we can't help ourselves. And we are struggling. Meanwhile our Congress critters and the Donut in Chief are happy to pillage our economy for everything they can get before they lose control of it.

Is this simple enough for you to understand?
How much is your future generation going to pay for that?
 

Sobek

Disgusting Scalie
Umm spartan you do realize that Putin saying those annexed areas are Russia is dangerous? If the war was over it’s one thing, but if Ukraine moves in on what Russia considers “Russian land” they might use nukes to defend “their territory” that is the danger.

The sad truth is might makes right on this bitch of a earth. Ukraine had a good thing going on for 20 years after the fall of the USSR, then the West and Moscow started playing tug of war over Kiev and now they got fucked.

I aggressively don't give a shit.
 

Marduk

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Umm spartan you do realize that Putin saying those annexed areas are Russia is dangerous? If the war was over it’s one thing, but if Ukraine moves in on what Russia considers “Russian land” they might use nukes to defend “their territory” that is the danger.
And? Does that mean everyone should automatically recognize territorial claims made by nuclear powers?
Nice try Xi.
They are not 'annexed' in anyone's view but Russia's, and I guess CPAC's, and treating the farce of the referendum's as anything close to legit is a massive mistake on CPAC's part.
Just because one calls areas annexed doesn't mean legal recognition or approval of said annexation.
Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining), in international law, is the forcible acquisition of one state's territory by another state, usually following military occupation of the territory.[1] It is generally held to be an illegal act.[2] Annexation is a unilateral act where territory is seized and held by one state,[3] is distinct from conquest[a][6][7] and differs from cession, in which territory is given or sold through treaty.

Annexation can be legitimized if generally recognized by other states and international bodies.[3][8][1]
Gee, seems like the perfect term for the situation at hand.
 
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Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
The sad truth is might makes right on this bitch of a earth. Ukraine had a good thing going on for 20 years after the fall of the USSR, then the West and Moscow started playing tug of war over Kiev and now they got fucked.

I aggressively don't give a shit.
That's what defines the lines on the sand doesn't it?
 

Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
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Osaul
Umm spartan you do realize that Putin saying those annexed areas are Russia is dangerous? If the war was over it’s one thing, but if Ukraine moves in on what Russia considers “Russian land” they might use nukes to defend “their territory” that is the danger.

Putin can say all he wants. Few will actually listen. And if Ukraine can take it back by force then what he says means nothing if he can't back it up. The Ukrainian counter offensive these past weeks has shattered the myth of Russia as a competitive super power state. I'm not even sure they're in a position to hold on to what they have now. Time will tell.
 

Sobek

Disgusting Scalie
And? Does that mean everyone should automatically recognize territorial claims made by nuclear powers?
Nice try Xi.

Just because one calls areas annexed doesn't mean legal recognition or approval of said annexation.

Unlike Winnie the Pooh, Putin has actual boots on the ground and a administration working on the areas he has claimed. Also gonna go on a limb and guess that Putin is far more accepted in those regions than Xi in Taiwan, even on the least russian-slanted statistics.
 

Marduk

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Unlike Winnie the Pooh, Putin has actual boots on the ground and a administration working on the areas he has claimed. Also gonna go on a limb and guess that Putin is far more accepted in those regions than Xi in Taiwan, even on the least russian-slanted statistics.
a) In both cases, they care more about their yesterday dinner than whether the local population accepts them. And wouldn't be so sure which is less accepted after few months of the pleasantries of "Russian world" occupation.
b) Xi will establish a CCP administration for Taiwan as soon as he decides to give the word.
c) Russia doesn't control a portion of the claimed territories too.
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
You're arguing semantics and perception which can dispelled by asking pointed or open ended questions. Still, at the end of the day it doesn't matter what you think or even what I think. Russia came in like a bully who stole Ukraines land. They took it, they currently own it and Ukraine hasn't yet taken it back. I'm sure they will given time, bur for now you're arguing semantics that may no longer apply in a few weeks.
I am dealing with things as they are now, not as I hope they will be at some point in the future.

I've made myself clear on my thoughts in the Federal Reserve several times now. I'm not going to defend them and think it should be dismantled. But if your saying that populism misses the point then you sir are the one missing the point as it's at the very heart of all these issues.
I never said populism misses the point, I said thinking this is about me liking or disliking populism is missing the larger point I was trying to make.

I like populism, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to how the PR game works or how bad the GOP/CPAC have been at it for years.
Ukraine is at the heart of what the Establishment wants. Because there's some crooked shit going on there, which has been brought up concerning Joe Biden, his Son and Burisma. I'm almost certain wlthats only the tip of the ice berg too.
Yes, I'm well aware of the shady Burisma shit and how the Dems lied about the phone call with Zelensky to attack Trump.

I was even fine with Rand Paul's desire to have an OIG inspector oversee the aid to Ukraine.
I'm rooting for Ukraine and so are many on the right as I think what's happening to them is wrong. But I'm tired of the lies and excuses our own government is giving us in order to send money we don't have and will never get back to fight a proxy war that has the potential to go Nuclear. Right now our own government looks more like a threat to our freedom and livelyhood than Russia does.
Again, sovereign debt doesn't operate like personal debt, and the money and equipment going to Ukraine is an investment in not having to fight the Russians at full strength in the future, while also helping solidify Ukraine's long-term prospects via ongoing aid.

The Biden admin is slowly destroying this country, if they haven't rendered us a banana republic already, and is riddled with corruption; this is true. It is also true that cutting aid or support for Ukraine at this point is not going to happen without those doing so or advocating for it getting called Russia-appeasers. More than one thing can be true at the same time, and it feels like many parts of the Right don't get that supporting Ukraine does not necessarily mean supporting Biden or his admin.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
And? If you has even bothered to pay attention to anything Republicans say you'd know the answer to this already. We've sent to Ukraine between 15 to 30 Billion in aid for them to defend their border, yet the Demonrats in Congress and their Rino allies couldn't be bothered to spare 10 Billion to secure our own! We are also 30 Trillion in debt and Congress is spending our money like they don't have a care in the world or any fucks to give about how we feel on it. We can not afford this, yet they don't care. Our Economy is in the toilet and yet Biden just gave tens of billions to help the Ukrainian economy out of its slump! At our expense, when we can't afford it. Do you not get it!? Is this so hard to understand? People are fucking tired of this shit! We have sympathy for Ukraine and what they're going through, but we can't help anyone of we can't help ourselves. And we are struggling. Meanwhile our Congress critters and the Donut in Chief are happy to pillage our economy for everything they can get before they lose control of it.

Is this simple enough for you to understand?

unlimited sympathy for the outsider absolutely none for their fellow americans.

This has happened before a man named Profio Diaz had a similar policy ask the mexicans how well that worked for them.
 

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