Plausible small arms in space

[Yinko]

In Elizabeth Moon's Vatta series she points out that, guns inside a spaceship are a dumb idea, bullets have a far higher chance of popping the envelope or ricocheting and destroying essential equipment. Instead she has her people (who at the time lack access to higher tech weapons) outfit themselves with knives and target crossbows.

Target crossbows are pretty non-lethal, but it would be very possible to use larger crossbows with little difficulty. Most of the deficiencies of the technology seem to have been solved (wide cross section, rate of fire, round capacity, etc).

If were were to go into space today, with largely our current tech base, can you see any reason why blades and fletched projectiles would not be the weapons of choice?

If they are the most plausible, then that would potentially create interesting implications, as it would make full armor viable again. So, basically space-knights...

 

[Bear Ribs]

In Elizabeth Moon's Vatta series she points out that, guns inside a spaceship are a dumb idea, bullets have a far higher chance of popping the envelope or ricocheting and destroying essential equipment. Instead she has her people (who at the time lack access to higher tech weapons) outfit themselves with knives and target crossbows.

Target crossbows are pretty non-lethal, but it would be very possible to use larger crossbows with little difficulty. Most of the deficiencies of the technology seem to have been solved (wide cross section, rate of fire, round capacity, etc).

If were were to go into space today, with largely our current tech base, can you see any reason why blades and fletched projectiles would not be the weapons of choice?

If they are the most plausible, then that would potentially create interesting implications, as it would make full armor viable again. So, basically space-knights...

The Vatta series is mistaken.

One need merely look at naval boarding actions, which use firearms. They do not worry that a stray bullet will punch through the hull or destroy critical parts of the ship. Unless the starships are somehow remarkably soft compared with modern vessels, there's no reason they wouldn't use firearms there as well.

If the starship is really that soft and weak, one need merely load something like Glaser rounds, which are used by air marshals on planes to ensure they do not over-penetrate to kill a passenger behind a terrorist and cannot shoot through the plane's skin.

 

[Bassoe]

Unless the starships are somehow remarkably soft compared with modern vessels

Weight is expensive. Balloons are a practical means of minimizing it.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Needle guns for ranged weapons within delicate spacecraft. Enough force to puncture flesh, not enough force to puncture any hard surfaces. Beware: if your spaceship doesn't have magic artificial gravity plating, then be careful not to fly into any floating needles that weren't picked up yet, lest you poke your eye out. You should probably use some sort of magnet to pick them all up.

Since needle guns wouldn't be able to puncture hard surfaces, this could justify melee combat, as people might don armor (or armored spacesuits) that could deflect the needles, meaning people would have to resort to using daggers or swords trying to stab each other in the gaps of their armor.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Weight is expensive. Balloons are a practical means of minimizing it.

Those aren't balloons in the context you're thinking of, they won't pop from being poked with a needle nor are they vulnerable to bullets (If they were crossbow bolts or needle guns wouldn't be any better).

BEAM, f'rex, is composed of multiple layers of Kevlar-like material with polymer cell structure in between. It won't be damaged by a bullet, and for good reason. Space is hella full of radiation so you can't just throw a thin layer of inflated rubber and expect to be alive tomorrow, it needs thick, heavy materials to absorb the incoming death rays so even inflatables are made of said heavy materials in thick layers. They also need a whipple shield to deal with impacts (also integrated in BEAM). This precludes any thin soft materials that are going to tear apart because somebody shot off a pistol inside.

Basically, the hull must be able to deal with the occasional micrometeor impact and must be able to deal with significant radiation of all kinds to keep the crew alive or you don't have a ship in the first place. Since random micrometeors are in fact far more energetic than bullets, any ship expected to do real work over any length of time is also going to be able to resist at least small arms fire.

 

[Marduk]

In Elizabeth Moon's Vatta series she points out that, guns inside a spaceship are a dumb idea, bullets have a far higher chance of popping the envelope or ricocheting and destroying essential equipment. Instead she has her people (who at the time lack access to higher tech weapons) outfit themselves with knives and target crossbows.

Target crossbows are pretty non-lethal, but it would be very possible to use larger crossbows with little difficulty. Most of the deficiencies of the technology seem to have been solved (wide cross section, rate of fire, round capacity, etc).

If were were to go into space today, with largely our current tech base, can you see any reason why blades and fletched projectiles would not be the weapons of choice?

If they are the most plausible, then that would potentially create interesting implications, as it would make full armor viable again. So, basically space-knights...

That's highly dependent of the tactical context of the boarding and the starship's structure.
Its one thing if the starship something like a small and highly delicate current day space station where every stray bullet has a decent chance to go through something relatively important, or a 40k starship which requires heavy artillery to accidentally damage anything truly important, or penetrate the hull for that matter.

That extreme avoidance of damage to the ship also applies mostly to boarding actions by poorly prepared combatants, criminals or covert ops who absolutely need the ship to remain 100% operational after the action, or police actions that absolutely need to avoid collateral damage or damage to the starship.
OTOH if it's a military action, the boarding force is wearing armored spacesuits, as such doesn't give a damn about ricochets or hull breaches, and shooting up most of the boarded vessel is acceptable casualties - if it wasn't shot to hell and back by anti ship weapons to enable the boarding in the first place, because boarding a maneuvering ship that doesn't want to be boarded would be a nightmare likely to end in a nasty collision.

Also contrary to meme level reasoning, a stray crossbow projectile that can neutralize someone through a spacesuit, especially a reinforced one, can still damage plenty of delicate technical things on a starship.
Basically, the problem is that as far as dedicated combat hardware goes, in most scenarios everyone would rather escalate to anti-armor weapons that might damage some parts of the ship than lose the fight because the other side did while they didn't.

 

[Yinko]

One need merely look at naval boarding actions, which use firearms. They do not worry that a stray bullet will punch through the hull or destroy critical parts of the ship. Unless the starships are somehow remarkably soft compared with modern vessels, there's no reason they wouldn't use firearms there as well.

You are probably right. The only argument against that I can think of is that, unlike airplanes and boats, spaceships are pressurized in the opposite direction. A bullet hitting the hull of a plane or boat will have some of its force countered by the pressure of the external fluid, while a bullet hitting the hull (or window) of a spaceship will be acting with the internal pressure, thus increasing its effect.
Not sure if that would actually make any real difference, but even if it did, those glasser rounds would probably work. Might also be easier to defend against though, which could still change the dynamic a bit.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Here's the thing, reality is apparently agreeing with Battletech of all settings for material science, given that we've discovered fucking EndoSteel back in 2016. So it is far more likely that you'll be using small arms in a spaceship anyway. The only real problem is the ZG conditions.

 

[Yinko]

fucking EndoSteel

What do we call that material?

 

[Aaron Fox]

What do we call that material?

Its real-life equivalent is Composite Metal Foam (basically a composite that has an aluminum backplate, a steel metal foam, and CBN faceplate) and we even got a video of it working in action:


The surprising thing is that ball .50cal ammunition did better than AP .50cal ammunition.

 

[Marduk]

Its real-life equivalent is Composite Metal Foam (basically a composite that has an aluminum backplate, a steel metal foam, and CBN faceplate) and we even got a video of it working in action:


The surprising thing is that ball .50cal ammunition did better than AP .50cal ammunition.

Would not be as surprised at that, its just a fancy version of the same principles that lie behind plain ol' spaced armor, which was used in tanks since the mid cold war, later mostly replaced by proper composite armors.

can stop ball and armor-piercing .50 caliber rounds as well as conventional steel armor, even though it weighs less than half as much.

So yet another competitor for titanium armor, ceramic armor and aluminum armor. May be potentially cheaper, even a bit lighter, but at visible price in multi hit endurance.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Would not be as surprised at that, its just a fancy version of the same principles that lie behind plain ol' spaced armor, which was used in tanks since the mid cold war, later mostly replaced by proper composite armors.

It's... not spaced armor. It's a composite armor but uses the metamaterial known as metal foam in its construction, something that kind of came out of nowhere in metalergy.

So yet another competitor for titanium armor, ceramic armor and aluminum armor. May be potentially cheaper, even a bit lighter, but at visible price in multi hit endurance.

Then again, this is basically either the V0 or V1 version. I wouldn't be surprised that we get some Battletech style shenanigans sooner than later...

 

[Marduk]

It's... not spaced armor. It's a composite armor but uses the metamaterial known as metal foam in its construction, something that kind of came out of nowhere in metalergy.

Then again, this is basically either the V0 or V1 version. I wouldn't be surprised that we get some Battletech style shenanigans sooner than later...

Having front and back plates is the norm for all sorts of fancier armor types that make it "technically composite", even steel armor in some WW2 tanks had a high hardness front plate. I'm talking of the metal foam itself. Which uses hollow cells. Empty space. Just on an orders of magnitude lower geometric scale than old spaced armor.

Might get some interesting applications, some searches mention aircraft wings, but as armor, for ground vehicles at that, i think the multi hit endurance problem is likely to make it merely just one of the competitors with older stuff.
If they can apply the same technology to other metals, or fill the hollow cells with something, it may get more interesting.

 

[Aaron Fox]

Having front and back plates is the norm for all sorts of fancier armor types that make it "technically composite", even steel armor in some WW2 tanks had a high hardness front plate. I'm talking of the metal foam itself. Which uses hollow cells. Empty space. Just on an orders of magnitude lower geometric scale than old spaced armor.

Might get some interesting applications, some searches mention aircraft wings, but as armor, for ground vehicles at that, i think the multi hit endurance problem is likely to make it merely just one of the competitors with older stuff.
If they can apply the same technology to other metals, or fill the hollow cells with something, it may get more interesting.

The thing is, this is similar to the description of EndoSteel to a T. Hell, the SB thread with this video has SB's BT population go out and say that this is similar to EndoSteel.

... which makes it very possible that Battletech armor isn't made of vampires...

 

[Knowledgeispower]

The thing is, this is similar to the description of EndoSteel to a T. Hell, the SB thread with this video has SB's BT population go out and say that this is similar to EndoSteel.

... which makes it very possible that Battletech armor isn't made of vampires...

Of course Endosteel in BT isn't used in armor

 

[Aaron Fox]

Of course Endosteel in BT isn't used in armor

However, the basic principles are. Does the 'titanium honeycomb' sound familiar to anyone here? It should because that's similar to titanium foam.

 

[Zachowon]

Having front and back plates is the norm for all sorts of fancier armor types that make it "technically composite", even steel armor in some WW2 tanks had a high hardness front plate. I'm talking of the metal foam itself. Which uses hollow cells. Empty space. Just on an orders of magnitude lower geometric scale than old spaced armor.

Might get some interesting applications, some searches mention aircraft wings, but as armor, for ground vehicles at that, i think the multi hit endurance problem is likely to make it merely just one of the competitors with older stuff.
If they can apply the same technology to other metals, or fill the hollow cells with something, it may get more interesting.

People say for Infantry armor

 

[Marduk]

People say for Infantry armor

Seems thick and bulky for what it gives, major issue for body armor, while ceramics already do it, with overall similar strengths and weaknesses otherwise.

I think the most plausible protective use for it, between the good properties for dual structure and armor use, is dual role structure\armor for aircraft, as in their circumstances multiple hits to the same spot are extremely unlikely, while being able to work as both structure and armor is an important for that role weight saving bonus.

 

[Doomsought]

As for recoil, you can basically just use a small-arms version of a recoilless riffle, with a metal shroud for the exhaust gasses that extends beyond the butt of the gun.

 

[UberIguana]

Boarding a spaceship will mean one of two things. Either it's surrendered, in which case shooting will be minimal, or you've had to thoroughly disable it first, meaning it's almost certainly already depressurised. Besides, unless you're planning a major firefight, any bullet holes will only lose a small amount of air. A 6mm hole will lose something like 0.5m³ a minute, assuming 1 bar of pressure. That's over an hour to empty a room. A few of those isn't a disaster as you can plug the holes easily enough.

However, let's assume you are engaging in an opposed boarding action (either side). If a ship is made out of materials fragile enough that small arms are a serious concern, then avoiding using guns means an enemy only has to wear armour equivalent to a thin ship hull in order to render your weapons impotent. Then they can use guns themselves with minimal collateral damage due to being able to end the fight quickly and decisively. Better to bring something heavy enough to penetrate and then plug any holes when you're done. Essential equipment on a ship you're boarding is probably much more essential to them than it is to you, which means a defender will also need the firepower to stand a chance. If you're looking to capture something vital that's on board? Well, we see circumstances like that on modern Earth and still use guns anyway.

If you insist on not penetrating the hull, baton rounds are probably a better bet. Blunt force isn't very good a piercing and any ultra lightweight hull is probably going to be balloon-like, only without the tendency to burst when pierced. Being flexible will help further reduce the impact of the baton round. Getting hit by one probably won't be fatal, but at close range it would be quite debilitating. Protecting against blunt force is also trickier than putting on a stab-proof vest.