Scooby Doo
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So you're saying a 40mm Grenade Launcher Machine Gun would Trump a bolter?
Kinda sussy...
Warhammer 40K Plausible 40K equipment: "Imperial" Bolter
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Kinda sussy...
Bolter would have significantly greater range due to ballistic coefficients, and you'd be able to carry way, way more ammunition.
Think M14 vs M16.
Edit: Also there are no 40mm grenades with 100mm of penetration, the HE-DP get about 40-50mm of penetration IIRC.
It's not an autocannon. It really is a small, rapid firing, rocket launcher.
Not really. Considering the barrel lengths, weights and the firing effects, those are more like something between gyrojets and rocket assisted projectiles than rocket launchers.
Gyrojet is likely the proper term for our frame of reference.
In that case bolters would have no excuse to be as big and heavy as they are. Gyrojets had next to no recoils and very little barrel heating and pressure compared to normal firearms, in fact lighter than normal guns due to it. Bolters? The most explanatory option seems to be that they are a two stage system, like modern RAP artillery shells - they work like a normal gun for an initial kick of velocity, also ensuring decent effectiveness at short ranges, and then the rocket engine starts to add extra range and velocity.
Bolters do have a kicker charge.
In per round damage effect, probably. 40 mm is dramatically bigger. A 75 cal bolter warhead has something like 8-10 cubic cm of volume. Likely around 50 grams of payload.
A 40 mm has closer to 70 cubic cm, and a similarly designed shell would hav roughly 400 grams of mass. A round optimized for shrapnel rather than high velocity/armor penetration would be closer to 300 grams.
Or at least, a 40 mm that was "full". 40 mm grenades actually have a lot of empty space, due to trigger mechanisms and such. Which highlight the engineering difficulties with scaling even as small as large as 40 mm.
(could not attach picture do to link issue)
This thing overall weighs 230 grams, with 30 grams of explosive filler. That allegedly is enough for a 5 meter kill radius, and a 130 m casualty radius. A 75 cal bolter comparatively has maybe 5 grams of explosive, which leads to the question of how impactful that explosive would actually be on an area target.
On a linear analysis, 5 grams of explosives being 1/6th the amount of a 40 mm suggests a kill radius of .80 cm, and a casualty radius of maybe 20 meters? But with so little shrapnel availble per round, I'm not sure exactly how dangerous that 20 meter radius would actually be: it might simply be the radius of how far shrapnel can travel, rather than a true danger zone: so, you might still be hit by a piece of shrapnel from a bolter at 130 meters, but because there's only 20 grams of shrapnel shooting out across a circumference of 800 meters, the actual chance of being hit is very low.
This all suggests the benefit of a bolter scale round would primarily be
1) Lethality on target: if it hits, you will do catastrophic damage.
2) Penetration of armor or cover: a concrete wall that will protect you from 50 cal fire might not protect you from 20 mm fire.
It is not however strongly subjective of strong area of effect effects. This would especially be the case where you don't have fancy proximity fuses or such: either it will hit the target, or not hit the target and fly on past and explode somewhere behind them.
Those are pretty bad assumptions. 5 grams of explosive weaksauce WW2 20mm standard. 6-12 is about the norm for WW2 20mm. 17 is 20mm mineshell.
Modern 20mm HEI used in US aircraft has 10g and 2g incendiary, also giving casulty radius of 2m and hazard radius of 20m, while, as you can see, the design isn't even optimized for fragmentation, and showing some advances in round design. Who knows what kinds of crazy materials and explosive they shove into ammo for Astartes.
But the targets in 40k are going to be relatively tougher, which certainly will counteract advanced materials/explosives.
A lot of targets require APHE (or even nastier) 20mm bolts to the torso to kill in 40k.
A lot of targets require APHE (or even nastier) 20mm bolts to the torso to kill in 40k.
Again, loose assumption. Some targets are just still plain people who also die to normal crappy guns.
Also fragmentation doesn't need to immediately drop targets to be worthwhile. If it bleeds...
But...Those targets will die to practically anything in 40k.
Instead of fragmentation rounds why not just load 20mm cannister/shot-shells?
Canister inherently has crap range, while bolters can accurately shoot to several hundreds of meters at minimum.
So the ideal would be AHEAD style munitions, bursts in front of target releasing pre-made fragments/spheres, automatically fuzed based on laser/technobabble mounted to the gun.
Not going to lie that'd be pretty horrifying, 30 round magazine weapon slinging 20mm shotgun shells which explode a couple meters in front of your face.
A bolter done right?
1) A railgun that directly interfaces with Astartes Power Armor for energy (has its own capacitor but generally powered by the armor) and tied into the armor/Black Carapace DNI for targeting and control.
2) An "under barrel", high powered Las weapon for utilization against "minor" targets without the need to worry about ammo usage.
3) A "standard" bolter round is an armor piercing, high explosive, micromissile. The railgun accelerates it up to high mach speeds while the missile drive generally handles fine targeting and/or range extension as needed. The round is hypersonic and thus generates its own plasma sheath in atmosphere, which effectively negates most laser point defense systems in addition to the increased damage. Once inside the target, the round detonates and the round body turns into armor piercing, mono-molecular, fragments explosively launched along the programmed pattern.
A bolter is an incredibly versatile weapons system that can, in the hands of an astartes, do everything from landing a precision headshot on a hostage taker without any collateral damage to clearing out a modern battlefield from a continent away when the Astartes does a time on target ICBM strike with his hand weapon.
"Dumbed down" Bolter's don't have the electronics to allow them to perform at that level and are basically just impact detonated AP frag grenades that can be fired rapidly from all manner of platforms.
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Because the Bolter as shown in a lot of 40k, especially in the Great Crusade? It's a crap weapon.
Las weapons make sense, they let you avoid the logistics issues. That Astartes power armor doesn't have integral Las weapons is beyond farcical.
Most of the "exotic" weapons make sense given their yields/special capabilities.
But the Bolter as the standard issue weapon? Zero fucking sense. Unless you actually take advantage of the benefits a micro missile, DNI, and highly capable sensors make possible when used in conjunction.
But then, this is one of the broader problems with how Astartes are portrayed. Go read In Fury Born/Path of the Fury by David Weber, the entire Shallingsport arc is about the absolute best portrayal of what Astartes should be in all of fiction. Period.
1) A railgun that directly interfaces with Astartes Power Armor for energy (has its own capacitor but generally powered by the armor) and tied into the armor/Black Carapace DNI for targeting and control.
2) An "under barrel", high powered Las weapon for utilization against "minor" targets without the need to worry about ammo usage.
3) A "standard" bolter round is an armor piercing, high explosive, micromissile. The railgun accelerates it up to high mach speeds while the missile drive generally handles fine targeting and/or range extension as needed. The round is hypersonic and thus generates its own plasma sheath in atmosphere, which effectively negates most laser point defense systems in addition to the increased damage. Once inside the target, the round detonates and the round body turns into armor piercing, mono-molecular, fragments explosively launched along the programmed pattern.
A bolter is an incredibly versatile weapons system that can, in the hands of an astartes, do everything from landing a precision headshot on a hostage taker without any collateral damage to clearing out a modern battlefield from a continent away when the Astartes does a time on target ICBM strike with his hand weapon.
"Dumbed down" Bolter's don't have the electronics to allow them to perform at that level and are basically just impact detonated AP frag grenades that can be fired rapidly from all manner of platforms.
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Because the Bolter as shown in a lot of 40k, especially in the Great Crusade? It's a crap weapon.
Las weapons make sense, they let you avoid the logistics issues. That Astartes power armor doesn't have integral Las weapons is beyond farcical.
Most of the "exotic" weapons make sense given their yields/special capabilities.
But the Bolter as the standard issue weapon? Zero fucking sense. Unless you actually take advantage of the benefits a micro missile, DNI, and highly capable sensors make possible when used in conjunction.
But then, this is one of the broader problems with how Astartes are portrayed. Go read In Fury Born/Path of the Fury by David Weber, the entire Shallingsport arc is about the absolute best portrayal of what Astartes should be in all of fiction. Period.
Las weapons are commonly regarded as being weaker than bolters, even hot-shot lasguns aren't ideal against the bigger beasties.
I'm not sure if the imperium can even make handheld railguns, they're intentionally incompetent for story purposes.
I'm not sure if the imperium can even make handheld railguns, they're intentionally incompetent for story purposes.
Las weapons being weak isn't a problem.
The average human dies just as well to a single Las bolt as they do to a bolter.
Las weapons powered by the fusion plant in Astartes armor? Built to the same quality tier as Astartes armor? They would be just as effective as a bolter against the chaff that make up most of the opposition.
Make them integral to the armor and tie them into the armor auspex and you very much should also have integral air defense that will be able to shoot things like grenades and rockets out of the air.
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Bluntly? Either Las weapons aren't able to deal damage against most enemies and so shouldn't actually be issued at all or they are able to deal damage and should be standard issue to Space Marines simply because of the ammo savings.
Bolters are a crap weapon for any kind of long duration conflict because you can only carry so many rounds. You either need a supply point, steady resupply, Space Marines to carry literally entire cargo containers of ammo on their backs for reloads, or enemy armies that conveniently limit themselves to a few thousand foes (at best). Otherwise it becomes a melee fight and those are really fucking stupid.
On the other hand, an Astartes with a Las weapon should be headshotting basically anyone within the kilometer or so range of a Las literally as fast as he can think the thought. No recoil, fusion power, power armor cooling systems, DNI triggering system, high end auspex targeting system. If you aren't drilling eyesockets as a Space Marine then you need remedial training.
The average human dies just as well to a single Las bolt as they do to a bolter.
Las weapons powered by the fusion plant in Astartes armor? Built to the same quality tier as Astartes armor? They would be just as effective as a bolter against the chaff that make up most of the opposition.
Make them integral to the armor and tie them into the armor auspex and you very much should also have integral air defense that will be able to shoot things like grenades and rockets out of the air.
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Bluntly? Either Las weapons aren't able to deal damage against most enemies and so shouldn't actually be issued at all or they are able to deal damage and should be standard issue to Space Marines simply because of the ammo savings.
Bolters are a crap weapon for any kind of long duration conflict because you can only carry so many rounds. You either need a supply point, steady resupply, Space Marines to carry literally entire cargo containers of ammo on their backs for reloads, or enemy armies that conveniently limit themselves to a few thousand foes (at best). Otherwise it becomes a melee fight and those are really fucking stupid.
On the other hand, an Astartes with a Las weapon should be headshotting basically anyone within the kilometer or so range of a Las literally as fast as he can think the thought. No recoil, fusion power, power armor cooling systems, DNI triggering system, high end auspex targeting system. If you aren't drilling eyesockets as a Space Marine then you need remedial training.
But is it worth it? How much of a las weapon can the armor's power pack handle piggybacking on without major drawbacks? If it's civilian laspistol level of energy output, no wonder Astartes would rather use melee.
Astartes do have actually decent las weapons, lascannons which some Astartes even use as a kind of anti tank rifle. But they explicitly cannot power that kind of weapon from their armor's power supply willy nilly, they need separate power packs just like guardsmen. And that's in addition to being simply huge, not something you could integrate into the armor without huge problems.
By that logic infantry should not be issued with assault rifles, because those are not effective against anything besides other infantry and even then other weapons can do better.
Astartes are expected to do a lot of fighting with better than average enemies, and more likely than not, operate more like force recon\special forces\shock assault units than sloggers who run out of ammo because they stick around behind enemy lines for ages. Las weapons or not, Imperium has to provide them with ammo logistics for other important weapons like missiles, grenades, and any artillery at all. Compared to the weight and bulk of these, gun/autocannon/bolter ammo is not major extra burden.
Also, looking at some FFG books, what i've noticed is that even most vehicle mounted las weapons have to be fed power packs or have internal ones that are charged during maintenance. The exceptions? Some rare tank variants, titans, and larger spacecraft.
If that's the power balance between imperial las weapons and common onboard power generators, no wonder they don't make them more common than they already are.
It may be that it normally takes proper plasma reactors (aka needing an enginseer in crew to operate it) to have reactor powered heavy las weapons.
For proper combat they need resupply anyway, for grenades, missiles and all the heavier weapons that cannot be replaced by lasers in function.
Hm, your numbers actually line up roughly with mine, of roughly 1 meter and 20 meters. Keep in mind with the comparison to the 20x102 round you are talking about something a bit bigger than I was picturing: the statted out 75 caliber I made has an overall length of roughly 100 mm. the 102mm length on the 20mm refers just to the cartrige: confirmed that by comparing it to the size of a display 50 cal round I have, with a 99 mm case and overall length of roughly 140mm.
Overall the Vulcan round is roughly 170 mm, almost twice as long as my assumption for a the 75 cal bolter. The gyroget nature also means you can't flair out the cartridge for more propellant like the vulcan does, and is shorter due to handling limits: If you have tape measure, 100 mm is already pushing what can reasonably be handled as a magazine by normal human scale hands.
Given the smaller size, I'm actually quite happy with my estimate. You may be correct about danger range, and them being dangerous: 1 meter kill zone more or less guarantees any hit anywhere is instantly lethal, useful against tougher enemies or even in modern situations with good medical care to guarantee a kill, rather than a recoverable wounded.
10-20 shrapnel danger range is also quite significant comparing to terrain features: checking on google maps intersections and street widths in built up areas, the streets and intersections are only about 20-30 meters wide, building to building. One bolter then, as long as it has some trigger to explode properly, could thus cover the entire street in some light shrapnel, suppressing the entire area single handedly. A lot of houses are also in the 20-30 meter overall dimensions, so depending on penetration of the rounds bolter round exploding in a house have a better chance of wounding someone in the house than basic fire.
Getting the most of any of these does require getting the right fusing, either to detonate at a certain distance, or after the right resistance (detonating after penetrating glass or vehicle armor probably takes a different sensitivities). But, that's just points to the advantage of having adjustable fuses like bellow, or building different classes of bolter ammo with differently optimized fuses. This is very old tech, so not out of question at all.
It would be quite useful is the bolter could adjust the fuses on the fly: for example, a range finder pointed at the target measures distance and programs the bolter explode at that distance, so even if the target somehow dodges, the bolter round will still explode in close proximity to the target. Or dial in a range so when supressing a street or intersection all the bolters air burst right in that intersection, rather than having to do arching fire or make sure there's some target to hit.
I could see space marine bolters have such a feature. More questionable with the Guard. Then again, adjustable fuses are WWI-II tech, and I believe WWII did have guns which could automatically set time fuses during the loading process. So it wouldn't be totally out of place for at least heavy bolters to have some programable detonation range the gunner can set detonation to.
Would also help justify the bulkiness if there was a fuse programmer in that big brick. Also go a long way to justify one reason why bolters might be considered preferable to lasgun fire when available.
In hindsight now I am wondering if fin stabilized bolts are a good choice or not.
Gyrojets can be hard to make because the stabilizing rocket holes are to put it bluntly, a pain in the ass.
Fins are less accurate but also way, way easier to make, and allow for a longer projectile. AKA, more filler, propellent, etc.
Basically less a 'fires big rocket propelled bullets' and more 'fires miniaturized hydra rockets'.
Concern however is that such rounds are going to need a LOOOOOOONG magazine. Benefits is they're going to have ludicrous range and payload relative to a 'bolt'.
Gyrojets can be hard to make because the stabilizing rocket holes are to put it bluntly, a pain in the ass.
Fins are less accurate but also way, way easier to make, and allow for a longer projectile. AKA, more filler, propellent, etc.
Basically less a 'fires big rocket propelled bullets' and more 'fires miniaturized hydra rockets'.