Philosophical-Social Discussion over Pornographic Materials

[Cherico]

What I’ve learned my other thread is that, if I’m for censorship of pornography, I am:

• Authoritarian
• Leftist
• A theocrat
• A moral crusader
• A hypocrite
• Responsible for making people leave the right wing
• Violating people’s rights
• And treacherous to the Constitution

Meanwhile, most of the legitimate arguments against my proposal come down to practical implementation. No other good arguments are given. None of my premises are challenged.

And people wonder why I believe in Thomism.

I don't think your a hipocrite.

But there is a reason why people think your left wing.


Imagine your religion stripped of its rules.

All that stuff that talks about forgiveness, charitity to others, the thou shalt nots? All those restraining bolts gone the faith gone replaced by a new faith that wants to remove all distintions, and this faith doesnt have all of the rules you have that prevent utterally monsterous behavor and does not belive in a higher power.

That is the social justice left.

....

Its the religious impluse perverted into the religion of socialsm.

Essentally they took the role that used to belong to you ursurped your rightful place in the world, thats why your conservative. But you have to remember that the right is more a collection of every one the left fucked over then a coherent philosphy.


Take Captain general (This isn't an insult by the way.)
The captians moral frame work is built upon the idea of stability her goal is a world that is stable where things are not on fire. If the religious impulse threatens said stability she's not going to like it. If the the liberty impulse disrupts that stability she's not going to like it.

My moral frame work is built upon liberty.
I like being free, I just want to live my life with a minimum of people intruding on my private sphere (AKA bossing me around)
I can and will dislike it when people do that.

These three impulses, Stability, Liberty and Equality/the religious impluse stand at a crossroads it is litterally impossible for them not to get in the way. That said for all of our disagreements we kind of have a problem the people who usurped your proper role in life are well.

Bug fuck insane and want to try their horrible ideas out again dispite them failing consistantly over and over again over a period of a hundred years and they are willing to commit any sin nessary for their utopia.


So for this coalition to work out we have to have priorities and for most of us survival beats out any worries about pornography.

 

[The Name of Love]

@Cherico I could argue that libertarianism is Leftist because it's also an a priori idea of politics that focuses on abstract ideas like "freedom" and is skeptical of traditional authority and traditional values.

 

[Cherico]

@Cherico I could argue that libertarianism is Leftist because it's also an a priori idea of politics that focuses on abstract ideas like "freedom" and is skeptical of traditional authority and traditional values.

ultimently I think we both agree that the left right dictomy really doesnt do a good job at discribing actual political, religious, or other values very well. Thats why I tend to view the political triangle as a better way of seeing things.

Im always going to be wary of any kind of authority in general, and be skeptical about rules and regulations. Its the foundation of who I am as a person.

Just like how your faith is the foundation of who you are as a person. I think we both can agree that its a bad thing for everyone that the current madness stolen your rightful place in the world.

 

[Terthna]

It can be both, to varying degrees by a situational basis, depending on the food and the person and the manufacturer. Is the heroin dealer at least a little to blame for a kid he sold drugs to dying?

Yes, because heroin is a poison, and he likely was aware of that fact; but pornography isn't.

Really? Can you show that in these studies? How do you know this?

Yes, I can. Because I read them. Here's just one example taken from the database; I've bolded the important part of the summary:

Demare, D.; Briere, J; and Lips, H. (1988). Violent pornography and self-reported likelihood of sexual aggression. Journal of Research in Personality. 22, 140-153.
222 undergraduate males were administered an attitudes survey examining pornography use, attitudes, and self-reported likelihood of rape or using sexual force. Nonviolent pornography was used by 81% of subjects within the previous year. Discriminant function analysis revealed that use of sexually violent pornography and acceptance of interpersonal violence against women were uniquely associated with likelihood of rape or using sexual force. It is hypothesized that the specific fusion of sex and violence in some pornographic stimuli and in certain belief systems may produce a propensity to engage in sexually aggressive behavior.

The findings in the study only shows that there is some sort of connection between a tendency towards violence against women, and the consumption of sexually violent pornography. However, at no point did they prove that the latter causes the former, instead of the former inspiring interest in the latter, simply as a matter of personal taste. They just made an assumption about cause-and-effect.

 

[FriedCFour]

Yes, because heroin is a poison, and he likely was aware of that fact; but pornography isn't.

It's actually an extremely effective painkiller and has those positive benefits.

The findings in the study only shows that there is some sort of connection between a tendency towards violence against women, and the consumption of sexually violent pornography. However, at no point did they prove that the latter causes the former, instead of the former inspiring interest in the latter, simply as a matter of personal taste. They just made an assumption about cause-and-effect.

So like "it's not porns fault the marriage failed, it's stigma around it." Just like "It's not cheatings fault the marriage failed, its stigma around cuckoldry."

 

[Terthna]

It's actually an extremely effective painkiller and has those positive benefits.

True, but it is very dangerous when not used properly; which is not true of pornography.

So like "it's not porns fault the marriage failed, it's stigma around it." Just like "It's not cheatings fault the marriage failed, its stigma around cuckoldry."

Did you even read the summary? No, it's more like correlation does not equal causation; to assume otherwise without evidence is anathema to reason itself.

 

[FriedCFour]

Did you even read the summary? No, it's more like correlation does not equal causation; to assume otherwise without evidence is anathema to reason itself.

I'm getting back to the point about how the study posted to say porn had no ill effects was because of stigma against it, which no one has justified as an actual argument because saying it's just people's stigma is flagrant bullshit.

 

[The Name of Love]

I'm getting back to the point about how the study posted to say porn had no ill effects was because of stigma against it, which no one has justified as an actual argument because saying it's just people's stigma is flagrant bullshit.

Here's my point on this. Assume the "stigma" narrative is correct. What does that prove? What if the stigma is biologically programmed? What if it's justified? What if we can't get rid of it without massive government re-education programs. Those who push this "stigma" narrative hardly ever address this.

 

[FriedCFour]

Here's my point on this. Assume the "stigma" narrative is correct. What does that prove? What if the stigma is biologically programmed? What if it's justified? What if we can't get rid of it without massive government re-education programs. Those who push this "stigma" narrative hardly ever address this.

That's my point. That's why I say if stigma is the fault, then you have to say stigma around cheating and polyamory is at fault and there isn't anything wrong with it except your reaction.

 

[Captain X]

Stigma is something that is socialized, not biological in nature. Advocating for it is what gets you called a moral busybody, FYI.

 

[Terthna]

I'm getting back to the point about how the study posted to say porn had no ill effects was because of stigma against it, which no one has justified as an actual argument because saying it's just people's stigma is flagrant bullshit.

My question it; why the heck are you even bringing that up? That's not what you asked me to prove, nor does the study I used as an example have anything to do with the subject of stigmas; here are some quotes to remind you of what that study was supposed to be an example of:

I feel it's necessary to point out that many of those studies assume the negative effects of pornography, or otherwise make correlations without proper evidence; mostly in the "bad people indulge in pornography, therefor pornography made them bad people" vein.

Really? Can you show that in these studies? How do you know this?

Yes, I can. Because I read them. Here's just one example taken from the database; I've bolded the important part of the summary:

Demare, D.; Briere, J; and Lips, H. (1988). Violent pornography and self-reported likelihood of sexual aggression. Journal of Research in Personality. 22, 140-153.
222 undergraduate males were administered an attitudes survey examining pornography use, attitudes, and self-reported likelihood of rape or using sexual force. Nonviolent pornography was used by 81% of subjects within the previous year. Discriminant function analysis revealed that use of sexually violent pornography and acceptance of interpersonal violence against women were uniquely associated with likelihood of rape or using sexual force. It is hypothesized that the specific fusion of sex and violence in some pornographic stimuli and in certain belief systems may produce a propensity to engage in sexually aggressive behavior.

The findings in the study only shows that there is some sort of connection between a tendency towards violence against women, and the consumption of sexually violent pornography. However, at no point did they prove that the latter causes the former, instead of the former inspiring interest in the latter, simply as a matter of personal taste. They just made an assumption about cause-and-effect.

Please stop trying to shift the goal posts; it's really starting to get annoying.

 

[FriedCFour]

Also, I can say "oh that's because it has stigmas attached to it" in regards to pornography disrupting relationships; because for the most part, it's the truth.

Please stop trying to shift the goal posts; it's really starting to get annoying.

All I'm trying to do is focus in on this statement.

 

[The Name of Love]

That's my point. That's why I say if stigma is the fault, then you have to say stigma around cheating and polyamory is at fault and there isn't anything wrong with it except your reaction.

Well, for the people doing the studies, the stigma is the problem because they want adultery and polyamory to be seen as normal in our society.

 

[FriedCFour]

Well, for the people doing the studies, the stigma is the problem because they want adultery and polyamory to be seen as normal in our society.

Well yeah, you could make the "the only harm is the stigma around it" about any number of things that would otherwise by appalling, like you could argue that the only issue with rape is that nonconsensual sex is stigmatized and if people just stopped caring about being raped then we wouldn't have any problems.

 

[The Name of Love]

Well yeah, you could make the "the only harm is the stigma around it" about any number of things that would otherwise by appalling, like you could argue that the only issue with rape is that nonconsensual sex is stigmatized and if people just stopped caring about being raped then we wouldn't have any problems.

In all fairness to them, they'd probably point out the physical and emotional harm nonconsensual sex causes. And I think that's the main point: they assume something like J. S. Mill's philosophy, particularly his harm principle and his opposition to prejudicial attitudes towards non-traditional lifestyles.

 

[FriedCFour]

In all fairness to them, they'd probably point out the physical and emotional harm nonconsensual sex causes. And I think that's the main point: they assume something like J. S. Mill's philosophy, particularly his harm principle and his opposition to prejudicial attitudes towards non-traditional lifestyles.

That's it, the emotional harm. Just stop caring and get society to no longer care and you no longer have any emotional harm.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Porn is bad, however a certain degree of bad things must be allowed to exist (with a certain level of pressure against them) for a stable society to continue. Being fat is bad, but we can't summarily execute the obese without knockon effects of that tyranny tearing the civilization to pieces.

 

[The Name of Love]

That's it, the emotional harm. Just stop caring and get society to no longer care and you no longer have any emotional harm.

A lot of libertarians praise Mill for his "harm principle," but if I remember him correctly, he thought that social stigma was more harmful than government coercion.

Porn is bad, however a certain degree of bad things must be allowed to exist (with a certain level of pressure against them) for a stable society to continue. Being fat is bad, but we can't summarily execute the obese without knockon effects of that tyranny tearing the civilization to pieces.

Right, so we must decide what the best way to deal with obesity or pornography. Although I would argue that something like an outright porn ban would probably work best.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

EDIT: consolidating double post
Social stigma is a good thing in the correct amount. There is a steady, regular amount of bullying necessary for a society to sustain itself.

Right, so we must decide what the best way to deal with obesity or pornography. Although I would argue that something like an outright porn ban would probably work best.

And I'd like to put everyone who enjoys Evangelion in a gulag but I'm forced to accept that in doing so I would have to create a regulatory body so powerful that it's acceleration into tyrannical overreach would be a near certainty.

 

[The Name of Love]

And I'd like to put everyone who enjoys Evangelion in a gulag but I'm forced to accept that in doing so I would have to create a regulatory body so powerful that it's acceleration into tyrannical overreach would be a near certainty.

Sounds like that's just a superstition of yours.