I mean, they have even less...praying mantis.....
Yeah, so the Chinese navy has as much experience against a major navy as the modern US navy has.
I mean, they have even less...praying mantis.....
Yeah, so the Chinese navy has as much experience against a major navy as the modern US navy has.
The US Navy literally invented modern naval warfare and has a century of institutional knowledge in conducting large scale naval maneuvers. Meanwhile China is just copying tech developed by the US and has only been learning this stuff for a generation, having zero years of institutional knowledge and zero experience conducting naval warfare in a live scenario.praying mantis.....
Yeah, so the Chinese navy has as much experience against a major navy as the modern US navy has.
The US Navy literally invented modern naval warfare and has a century of institutional knowledge in conducting large scale naval maneuvers. Meanwhile China is just copying tech developed by the US and has only been learning this stuff for a generation, having zero years of institutional knowledge and zero experience conducting naval warfare in a live scenario.
These snarky comments of yours don't change this fact and makes it seem more like you have a petty grudge than any actual understanding of things.
The US Navy literally invented modern naval warfare and has a century of institutional knowledge in conducting large scale naval maneuvers. Meanwhile China is just copying tech developed by the US and has only been learning this stuff for a generation, having zero years of institutional knowledge and zero experience conducting naval warfare in a live scenario.
These snarky comments of yours don't change this fact and makes it seem more like you have a petty grudge than any actual understanding of things.
And your attempts at crystal ball gazing are supposed to not be a delusion?No, I am trying to wake people out of their post cold war stupor. This isnt the 90's anymore. China's navy is no longer a bunch of rinky dink missile boats. They are building an enormous blue water fleet of modern ships with an industrial capacity that dwarfs the USA. Unless we properly understand that the USA will lose its unquestioned naval supremacy in the next 15 years we will continue to act under a delusion.
How many times did the PLAN use an aircraft carrier in anger?praying mantis.....
Yeah, so the Chinese navy has as much experience against a major navy as the modern US navy has.
Praying mantis.
Oh you said major.
Nit since WW2 because no navy has been comparable not even the Soviet one
So, how many people who faught in Praying Mantis are still serving? Since it was 36 years ago, I'm sure the number isn't zero, but its close to. And anyone who was in any sort of leadership position then is likely well retired or dead.
In which case the way the current US Navy is "experienced" from this event is that the current people can read case studies and leasons learned documents. And given how much of this stuff is either open sourced or can be pretty trivially gotten by low level spy activities, the Chinese probably have those same case study documents, and their own lessons learned reports.
The advantage of direct combat experience tends to fall off pretty quickly. The US does do a bit better holding onto it it seems, compared to say, Russia, which generally has to relearn a fair bit with each new conflict it enters, but anything not practiced decays pretty quickly.
The US's advantage is in mostly doing exercises. Which the Chinese are doing quite a lot of too now, as they've gotten richer and can afford it. I'm not sure any combat done 40+ years ago would provide any relevant experience, at least in a way China doesn't also have.
*Looks at carrier operations for the last 20 years...*So, how many people who faught in Praying Mantis are still serving? Since it was 36 years ago, I'm sure the number isn't zero, but its close to. And anyone who was in any sort of leadership position then is likely well retired or dead.
In which case the way the current US Navy is "experienced" from this event is that the current people can read case studies and leasons learned documents. And given how much of this stuff is either open sourced or can be pretty trivially gotten by low level spy activities, the Chinese probably have those same case study documents, and their own lessons learned reports.
The advantage of direct combat experience tends to fall off pretty quickly. The US does do a bit better holding onto it it seems, compared to say, Russia, which generally has to relearn a fair bit with each new conflict it enters, but anything not practiced decays pretty quickly.
The US's advantage is in mostly doing exercises. Which the Chinese are doing quite a lot of too now, as they've gotten richer and can afford it. I'm not sure any combat done 40+ years ago would provide any relevant experience, at least in a way China doesn't also have.
And your attempts at crystal ball gazing are supposed to not be a delusion?
Yes, China's military buildup is a concern, but if you want to discuss it, talk technology and strategy, not throw around tonnage or ship numbers, that just shows you don't understand modern naval warfare. By tonnage and numbers WW2 US Navy is many times bigger than current US Navy, but there's no doubt which would win.
How many times did the PLAN use an aircraft carrier in anger?
How many times did US Navy?
Here's your institutional experience.
Not every conflict is a World War.In which case we seem to be talking about China's ability to win WWIII. Which seems to be a different issue than Peter's claim. If by Piracy Peter means WWIII, then he's choosing an extremely poor term for what he means.
The range of things China could do also seems to be dramatically underestimated.
*may*Its tonnage advantage comes from its carriers, which in the age of drones, hypersonic missiles and autonomous torpedoes may be going the way of the battleship. They may be useful for bullying 3rd rate powers, but how will they fair against a peer?
As i said, numbers and tonnage do not matter much, tech capabilities on ship matter a lot now.And that tonnage advantage is rapidly declining as china puts more and more modern ships into water at a rate the USA cannot match. The Chinese advantage in shipbuilding greatly exceeds the advantage the USA had over Japan in ww2!
They still lag, and carriers are almost as old as subs.The real advantage the USA has in terms of its fleet are its submarines, which are the best in the world. Submarines are the future, not carriers and China's sub fleet sucks. But, China is now starting to build good subs as well.
In civilian ships, not in warships, and the warships are of subpar quality. If they would start to just use civilian shipbuilding for the warships they quality would go down further. Steel is cheap, silicon is expensive, as i said, what's the point of more hulls if you don't have the means to equip and supply them as warships.The USA also has an advantage in tradition, which is not to be scoffed at. But when you can outbuild your competitor by a factor of over 200 times, you can afford to learn by doing.
Can you think of anything between now and then that might have carried that experience in running Carrier operations forward into the present?
Not every conflict is a World War.
Carrier Operations supported Gulf War 1 & 2, which means that there have been actual combat operations off of US Carriers in the last 20 years.In the last 20 years besides running exercises? Not particularly. I guess there's ISIS, but I'm not sure how much that really counts more than just running exercises.
The question is, does the US navy still have that level of training and skill? Or has it gotten complacent, suffering from poor training thanks to wokism and a lack of recruits? I’ve also heard stuff about how the US’s stock of motions has run low thanks to Ukraine.Carrier Operations supported Gulf War 1 & 2, which means that there have been actual combat operations off of US Carriers in the last 20 years.
Given Carrier Air Wings are generally commanded by pilots, this means that the current crop of CAGs are going to be veterans from those conflicts, and a number of said individuals are going to have been teaching in the time since then.
In other words, there is active institutional experience of how to fight off of a carrier in the US military in active service, and teaching the pilots currently working up through the system.
This is something China does not have.
Now a more significant question; why did this not occur to you?
The question is, does the US navy still have that level of training and skill? Or has it gotten complacent, suffering from poor training thanks to wokism and a lack of recruits? I’ve also heard stuff about how the US’s stock of motions has run low thanks to Ukraine.
Then you have wrong, and besides it would be wrong munitions, as since when do warships fight with GMLRS and 155mm artillery shells?The question is, does the US navy still have that level of training and skill? Or has it gotten complacent, suffering from poor training thanks to wokism and a lack of recruits? I’ve also heard stuff about how the US’s stock of motions has run low thanks to Ukraine.
Shh, don't point out we haven't been sending much in the way of naval equipment to Ukraine, and that the stocks needed for the Navy to wallop Iran haven't really been touched to help Ukraine; it might hurt the narrative the US is a paper-tiger that Darth wants to push.Then you have wrong, and besides it would be wrong munitions, as since when do warships fight with GMLRS and 155mm artillery shells?
Carrier Operations supported Gulf War 1 & 2, which means that there have been actual combat operations off of US Carriers in the last 20 years.
Given Carrier Air Wings are generally commanded by pilots, this means that the current crop of CAGs are going to be veterans from those conflicts, and a number of said individuals are going to have been teaching in the time since then.
In other words, there is active institutional experience of how to fight off of a carrier in the US military in active service, and teaching the pilots currently working up through the system.
This is something China does not have.
Now a more significant question; why did this not occur to you?