Fallout Perpetual Debate of Bethesda Versus Interplay/Obsidian Fallout World Design

[TyrantTriumphant]

Brahmin meat IS radioactive. It's only Bethesda lore where Brahmin milk has properties to cleanse radiation, by the canon YOU guys want Brahmins are radioactive and NCR people irradiated themselves every time they eat.

NCR sticks to Brahmins because surprise surprise it's canonically the only cattle which they've become dependent on, so the masses that can't afford rad away die from radiation poisoning according to non Bethesda lore. (If you want to use Bethesda lore then Brahmin milk cleanses radiation from the body so it cancels out the radiation)

Do you have a source for this? Because if they were radioactive then they would all be dead before they could reproduce.

Besides, even if it is true that Brahmin meat and milk are radioactive, and a lot of people eat it and live long enough to reproduce then by the same logic they are capable of using jet and not immediately dying.

Source? The Mojave shows multiple examples of the NCR troopers falling to drugs like Psycho whose to say they don't also use Jet?

SOME of them use it. Not all. Where is your source that everybody uses it? Some people using it does not mean that the whole society uses it.

That's the point Brahmin shit Jet would have never taken off realistically, that's why Bethesda retconning it into a prewar drug is good

Just like tranq wouldn't take off realistically? Of basically any other narcotic? They are all harmful to one degree or another and people still use them. What part of that do you not get?

You mean the less harmful Pre-War drug Jet not the Brahmin shit Jet.

Where's your source for this? Do you have any evidence that New Vegas uses Bethesda jet instead of Interplay Jet? Do you have any a list of the side effects from each variety of jet and evidence that Interplay jet is more harmful? And your stupid head-canon doesn't count.

In a post apocalypse society no one would use radioactive Brahmin shit they'd look for other drugs, Brahmin shit was just a stupid edge lord concept that I'm glad Bethesda retconned early all into FO3.

It would have been too lethal to be used wide spread and for it to be as famous as Fallout 2 made it to be the NCR the people would have to be literally retarded or suicidal and a large chunk of it to boot

Yes they would, just like in real society. Mostly because they can make more of it unlike the other drugs. And you don't need that many people hooked for it to be profitable. The whole point of making drugs is that junkies can't stop buying. They are the ultimate repeat customers.

Also, jet is not shown as being as lethal as you say it is in Fallout 2. What is shown on screen doesn't support that. All you have is your own head-canon.

Yeah the dung that people touch and shovel to burn, parasites CAN travel through fumes to not all of them but they can

In that case who is to say that the parasites that may or may not inhabit Brahmin are the type that cannot travel through fumes?

 

[Husky_Khan]

So yeah huffing Radioactive cow shit with parasites is Darwin Award worthy, thank god Bethesda retconned it makes the people less stupid.

Oh like you Danes should talk when it comes to huffing cow poo areas.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

Oh like you Danes should talk when it comes to huffing cow poo areas.

I nearly got eaten alive by one of these when I was jogging today, A cow sized dog running up on you is not fun.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

TBF the writer of New Vegas said more or less the same thing when some one questioned the Survival Skill being able to purify water in New Vegas and it making FO3 Purifying process redundant.

FO inconsistency existed before Bethesda.

I like how you don't see the issue here lmao. Purifying water is actually kinda easy, there's an entire industry around it in FO1, ghouls do it in FO1, and presumably by FO2 most cities can do it.
The plotline of needing a techno-macguffin to purify water in FO3 is the outlier, not the norm, it is the inconsistency, not consistency.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Yeah the dung that people touch and shovel to burn, parasites CAN travel through fumes to not all of them but they can

You're assuming there are parasites, you know what kills germs and parasites, weirdly enough? Radiation lmao. Granted brahmin are so mutated there might not even BE any organisms that are pathogenic inside of them.

Brahmin meat IS radioactive. It's only Bethesda lore where Brahmin milk has properties to cleanse radiation, by the canon YOU guys want Brahmins are radioactive and NCR people irradiated themselves every time they eat.

99% of food in Fallout is radioactive, but not to the degree that it will kill you, because everyone is still running around alive.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Did some napkin maths to figure out just how shit the FO4 weapon balancing (for a given caliber) is.
FO1-2 .223 small guns (Classic fallout doesn't have .308 with the given reason it was exceedingly rare)
-Hunting Rifle
-Sniper Rifle
-.223 Pistol

Respective damage per action point.
-Hunting Rifle: 4 damage
-Sniper Rifle: 5.6 damage
-.223 Pistol: 6 damage (technically has armor penetrate perk so it's even more in practice)

All righty so we have three weapons ranging from 'weapon you can find at the start of the game' to 'literal best .223 small gun in the game'.
Difference per action point? 50% bonus damage comparing the worst to the best. Against heavy armor it's even better, but against a naked target this is what you get.

Doesn't sound like much but that can be the difference between killing an enemy per turn, or every 2 turns. Which means you take double damage in return. This is very important.

Fallout 4 .308 small guns, same 'class' of 'punchy relatively slow firing guns'.
-Pipe revolver
-Bolt action pipe rifle
-Hunting Rifle
-Combat rifle

Respective damage per 10 seconds. (no perks, just base max-modded stats)
-Pipe revolver: 294
-Bolt action pipe rifle: 102
-Hunting Rifle: 165
-Combat rifle: 2793

Alrighty so we should see an obvious problem here, the worst weapon is doing 1/27th the damage of the best weapon, that is to say you need 27 times the time to kill an enemy despite firing the same rounds at them. Hypothetically lets say it's a rather tanky enemy who requires 30 seconds of concentrated fire to put down, this means it's going to take a fun 13 minutes to actually put down. Dear lord and hope it doesn't regenerate either.

Now granted the pipe guns are meant to be thrown away pretty quickly, shockingly the pipe revolver has three times the DPS of it's pipe rifle counterpart, and nearly twice the DPS of the actual proper maxxed out hunting rifle.

To make this clear, a fully upgraded 'actual firearm' is outcompeted by a fucking pipebomb waiting to happen.

The worst culprit of the .308 saga is the combat rifle, which utterly renders every other gun in it's ammo type worthless by a stupid degree, to get the same parity the fallout 1-2 .223 pistol would have to be doing some 540 damage per shot, which would 1 shot everything in the game aside from Frank Horrigan. That's how outlandish the scaling is.

Now granted obviously there are going to be disconnects between turn based and real-time combat systems, and DPS generally scales with fire rate. Except a proper competent game developer would ensure guns of a given caliber aren't doing 27 fucking times the damage of weapons in it's class, the combat rifle should not have been able to load .308, and the .308 weapons should've got a huge damage buff to counteract how slow they fire.

 

[DarthOne]

Did some napkin maths to figure out just how shit the FO4 weapon balancing (for a given caliber) is.
FO1-2 .223 small guns (Classic fallout doesn't have .308 with the given reason it was exceedingly rare)
-Hunting Rifle
-Sniper Rifle
-.223 Pistol

Respective damage per action point.
-Hunting Rifle: 4 damage
-Sniper Rifle: 5.6 damage
-.223 Pistol: 6 damage (technically has armor penetrate perk so it's even more in practice)

All righty so we have three weapons ranging from 'weapon you can find at the start of the game' to 'literal best .223 small gun in the game'.
Difference per action point? 50% bonus damage comparing the worst to the best. Against heavy armor it's even better, but against a naked target this is what you get.

Doesn't sound like much but that can be the difference between killing an enemy per turn, or every 2 turns. Which means you take double damage in return. This is very important.

Fallout 4 .308 small guns, same 'class' of 'punchy relatively slow firing guns'.
-Pipe revolver
-Bolt action pipe rifle
-Hunting Rifle
-Combat rifle

Respective damage per 10 seconds. (no perks, just base max-modded stats)
-Pipe revolver: 294
-Bolt action pipe rifle: 102
-Hunting Rifle: 165
-Combat rifle: 2793

Alrighty so we should see an obvious problem here, the worst weapon is doing 1/27th the damage of the best weapon, that is to say you need 27 times the time to kill an enemy despite firing the same rounds at them. Hypothetically lets say it's a rather tanky enemy who requires 30 seconds of concentrated fire to put down, this means it's going to take a fun 13 minutes to actually put down. Dear lord and hope it doesn't regenerate either.

Now granted the pipe guns are meant to be thrown away pretty quickly, shockingly the pipe revolver has three times the DPS of it's pipe rifle counterpart, and nearly twice the DPS of the actual proper maxxed out hunting rifle.

To make this clear, a fully upgraded 'actual firearm' is outcompeted by a fucking pipebomb waiting to happen.

The worst culprit of the .308 saga is the combat rifle, which utterly renders every other gun in it's ammo type worthless by a stupid degree, to get the same parity the fallout 1-2 .223 pistol would have to be doing some 540 damage per shot, which would 1 shot everything in the game aside from Frank Horrigan. That's how outlandish the scaling is.

Now granted obviously there are going to be disconnects between turn based and real-time combat systems, and DPS generally scales with fire rate. Except a proper competent game developer would ensure guns of a given caliber aren't doing 27 fucking times the damage of weapons in it's class, the combat rifle should not have been able to load .308, and the .308 weapons should've got a huge damage buff to counteract how slow they fire.

I suspect they really really wanted to push the pipe weapons because they’re more ‘post apocalyptic’. Nevermind that the ones in the game are ugly as sin, even for pipe weapons.


Edit: the autocorrect has been taken out and shot for its failure.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

I suspect they really really wanted to push the pipe weapons because they’re more ‘post apocalyptic’. Nevermind that the ones in the game are ugly as sin, even for pipe weapons.


Edit: the autocorrect has been taken out and shot for its failure.

Its a weird design choice because the pipe weapons almost universally become redundant the instant you find a 10mm pistol.

...Which is the first firearm you find in the game. X_X

The only usage for pipe-guns is wounding and explosive variants, which thanks to Bethesda also sucking dick at balance, exceed the power of 90% of guns in the game.

 

[Typhonis]

• Dust Storms (Perception Debuff, removed by short resting)
• Cold Temperature Drops (Agility Debuff, removed by short resting)
• High Temperature (Endurance Debuff removed by drinking water)
• Random Deathclaw attacks (Just "Hard" Fight)

How bout any of the following can happen?

If you want weather and terrain rules look up an item called Dirtside by Zozer games. It gives rules for hostile environments. Also it gives rules for damage taken by being in such conditions.

Dust/Sandstorms. Wearing protective clothing and eye protection is a must. Even then have the party make either a wisdom or intelligence check every hour to avoid getting lost.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

I use the above so I don't have to manually replace a bunch of shit myself in Xedit

Oh boy the wonders of altering weapon spawns in FO4...Such a nightmare. X_X

 

[Typhonis]

A real life pipe gun. The Sten gun.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

A real life pipe gun. The Sten gun.

D:> Whoah! Notice how it applies several rules of gunsmithing? Like the fucking magazine being in line with the bolt!? And what's this? It's not made of rusty nails and splintered wood!?

 

[Typhonis]

I blame lazy creativity on their part. I mean look at it. Swing the magazine down 90 degrees and you have a functional pipe weapon for Fallout and given the picture you already have two mods for the stock, 3 mods for the barrel. It also has a nice rugged look to it.

Another 'pipe' weapon from WW2. M-3 Grease Gun.

Stamped metal. Very little welding required. A bike shop could turn one out. Perfect for the wasteland. Also already has that 50's vibe.

And now for a real kicker....a pipe rifle perhaps?

M-1 Garand with folding stock.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

I blame lazy creativity on their part. I mean look at it. Swing the magazine down 90 degrees and you have a functional pipe weapon for Fallout and given the picture you already have two mods for the stock, 3 mods for the barrel. It also has a nice rugged look to it.

Another 'pipe' weapon from WW2. M-3 Grease Gun.

Stamped metal. Very little welding required. A bike shop could turn one out. Perfect for the wasteland. Also already has that 50's vibe.

And now for a real kicker....a pipe rifle perhaps?

M-1 Garand with folding stock.

Stampings are actually kinda hard to do for small-time gunsmiths, they require complicated and large stamping machines. For example even the soviet union post-war struggled to get the AKM operational and they were stamping all sorts of stuff beforehand.
Stamping is basically super awesome for production, but getting said production running is quite challenging. For post-war gunsmiths you're much more likely to find tube-receiver firearms and milled stuff. Relatively expensive, sure, but less difficult to make in return.
Granted the Greasegun shows up in at least 2 Fallout games, so obviously somebody figured it out postwar.

 

[Typhonis]

Still with 5 minutes on Google...I think I found better examples for 'pipe' weapons in Fallout.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

I mean look at it. Swing the magazine down 90 degrees

Funny story about that, because Bethesda is the laziest fucking company and reuses animations as much as possible despite having so many unique models and textures, two guns ingame use side mounted magazines all using the same reload animations.
Assault rifle and pipe pistol have the same animation despite being radically different guns. Also the reason why the game has no pump action or belt fed guns either, why bother making new animations when you can just reuse em?

Still with 5 minutes on Google...I think I found better examples for 'pipe' weapons in Fallout.

Yep, you sure did! <;3

 

[Typhonis]

A pipe assault rifle. Take the Garand and give it a 20 round box mag like a BAR. As for loading animation. A hand pushing down a 5 round stripper clip into the action then popping off the clip.Have it repeat twice for normal magazine and four time for 20 round magazine.

Craftable mod for ammo pouches...the BAR belt could hold 12 magazines.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

A pipe assault rifle. Take the Garand and give it a 20 round box mag like a BAR. As for loading animation. A hand pushing down a 5 round stripper clip into the action then popping off the clip.Have it repeat twice for normal magazine and four time for 20 round magazine.

Craftable mod for ammo pouches...the BAR belt could hold 12 magazines.

"Pipe" is something of a bad term to use for a gun so complicated, really you could call it 'hand-crafted' or 'garage-smithed' or something?

 

[Typhonis]

"Pipe" is something of a bad term to use for a gun so complicated, really you could call it 'hand-crafted' or 'garage-smithed' or something?

Survival? Implying it was designed by people low on resources?

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Survival? Implying it was designed by people low on resources?

"Survival Hunting Rifle"
"Survival Assault Rifle"
"Survival Revolver"

Yeah, those seem decent enough.