Operation Sealion Megathread...

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Because what AH subforum would be complete without this pandora boxs of controversy? šŸ¤£

This is the thread devoted to talking about Sealion and any POD that might make it possible or even remotely feasible...šŸ˜ˆ
 

stevep

Well-known member
In June 1940 Britain is replaced by its 1900 version? That should make it possible, perhaps even likely.;)

In terms of a non ASB one then you need possibly some political collapse in Britain or some very drastic changes in Germany and/or Britain several years pre-war.
 

Buba

A total creep
There is a reason why making a new Sealion thread is a banning offense on AH ;)
Indeed, there is a gazillion of them (some quite well argued and evidenced), as every few months a new member - and not even necessarily a wehrabo - asks about Sealion. How much dead equine flogging and regurgitation of long dead matter can a board take?
Another such abomination are "Japan using non existing shipping and high school children armed with bamboo sticks captures and holds Hawaii after attack on Pearl Harbor. How does this change the war?!?" threads ...
 

ATP

Well-known member
German keeping attacking airfields,and when british fighter widraw send airborne troops.But even then they would lost ,becouse they have no navy to send enough troops through channel.Paratroopers alone would be no enough.

So...maybe all this plus Churchill killed by random bomb,replaced by Halifax who shouted "mommy help" and surrender ?
Becouse even Halifax need viable reason to do that.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Give Germany Norway's, Russia's and France's merchant and military fleets intact and full cooperation for the greatest SINKEX in history!
 

ATP

Well-known member
Give Germany Norway's, Russia's and France's merchant and military fleets intact and full cooperation for the greatest SINKEX in history!

Norway fleet was arleady given to England,french mostly sunked by England,but soviets were Hitler ally since 1939.If they gave their merchant ships to them,it should worked.

Problem is - soviet from beginning was fake allies.They wanted France and Germany bleed each other,so they could come after few years and take entire Europe.Which would worked,but France heroically surrender after 42 days of fighting.
And save Europe that way.Entire Western Europe and Africa should made monuments of french soldiers tossing their weapons - without them,soviets would take them all.
 

Buba

A total creep
So...maybe all this plus Churchill killed by random bomb,replaced by Halifax who shouted "mommy help" and surrender ?
Something I learned from Sealion threads on AH-com is that the above is a myth produced by a self-serving Churchill/need for national "unbowed, unbent, unbroken" mythos.
The fat drunk was just as ready as Halifax to do a negotiated peace.
British propaganda always has been excellent!
 
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ATP

Well-known member
i just remembered,that german decided - maybe not abadonn,but slow their work on heavy bomber in 1936.If they do not do that,Battle of Britain could be win by them.Maybe ?
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
What do they remove for their heavy bomber? Ju-88? Me-110? Bf-109? The problem all bombers in WWII is their escorts, if Luftwaffe can't escort the well enough to target, then they are just as much of target as light and medium bombers, it's just that the loss of every bomber is heavier blow than loss of medium bomber.
 

ATP

Well-known member
What do they remove for their heavy bomber? Ju-88? Me-110? Bf-109? The problem all bombers in WWII is their escorts, if Luftwaffe can't escort the well enough to target, then they are just as much of target as light and medium bombers, it's just that the loss of every bomber is heavier blow than loss of medium bomber.
So,if Germans choose He112 with better range instead of Me 109,they would win Battle of Britain ?
And those heavy bombers could be built instead of ,let say,half of their medium bombers.
 

Buba

A total creep
Not that it would change the outcome ... there is no need for a "Me109 for He112" swap to have Luftwaffe fighters prancing all over England.
Drop tanks. Already around.
Plus free sweeping Me110.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
So,if Germans choose He112 with better range instead of Me 109,they would win Battle of Britain ?
No, because first of all Luftwaffe would have suffered worse casualties in the Battle of France than OTL (there is a reason why Bf-109 won), it wouldn't remove the fact that the British have superior Command&Control system, the the British are outpacing them in aircraft production and pilot training, that Germans have much higher ratio of nonrecoverable losses... To make the Germans win the Battle of Britain you need straight out magical intervention and winning it still wouldn't be enough to make the operation Sealion feasible, you would need even more of ASB to make that happen.

And those heavy bombers could be built instead of ,let say,half of their medium bombers.
Which means that Wehrmacht will sorely miss those medium bombers. The Luftwafe doctrine was centered around tactical support, enabling Wehrmacht to achieve quick victories, switching to strategic bombing means less tactical support, which just might translate in the French holding the front at Sedan long enough for reinforcements to arrive. And then Germany is super fucked.
Also these kind of shifts don't work in real life like they do in Hearts of Iron.

Drop tanks. Already around.
German drop tanks were made of aluminium which was in short supply for them, so not an option, it's why they used them mostly on the ferry missions.

Plus free sweeping Me110.
If you mean the conventional Me-110 tactics, then it's just more notches for British pilots. If you mean the later tactics that the 210th Group pioneered, it would be troublesome at the start, but it could be countered.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
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Osaul
Maybe, if you magically gave the germans a bunch of free naval torpedo bombers, this might be doable early in the war. But just getting to the beaches is only the first problem. You'd also have to maintain connection with those on the beachhead as well, then do it all over again with Ireland (make no mistake, if this happens, Ireland gets basically taken by the british as a last holdout).
 

stevep

Well-known member
There is a reason why making a new Sealion thread is a banning offense on AH ;)

Is it now. That seems a bit harsh. Been a decade or so since I was on there regularly and it used to be a point of fun when a newbie started such a thread. "Heritic, burn him at the stake" etc, but generally in good humour and with an explanation as to why such a thread was getting such a response.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Not that it would change the outcome ... there is no need for a "Me109 for He112" swap to have Luftwaffe fighters prancing all over England.
Drop tanks. Already around.
Plus free sweeping Me110.

As well as the comment about aluminium made above the problem with drop tanks is that, unless your prepared to accept a real disadvantage in combat, they have to be dropped when enemy fighter turn up. Which given Britain's radar and C&C system is going to be pretty damned near the coast. The F109s can fight fairly well but lose their ability to go much deeper inland than say London. Which could be bad for the capital but if the Luftwaffe tries daylight raids on deeper inland while No. 11 group will suffer badly attempts to send bombers into parts of the country covered by 10 & 12 groups are likely to have unescorted bombers being intercepted by fighters and very badly mauled.

Steve
 

Buba

A total creep
On internal fuel the Me109's combat radius was London. I'd imagine that drop tanks (ingenius German engineers figure out some cheaper material for them) lasting more or less to the British coast would be a relatively big boost.
Also - with drop tanks maybe escorted bomber missions from Netherlands over East Anglia become possible, keeping 12 Group busy.
Still, Sea Lion fails :)
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Mathematical model shows how the Nazis could have won WWII's Battle of Britain

Now, historians and mathematicians from York St. John University have collaborated to produce a statistical model (docx download) capable of calculating what the likely outcomes of the Battle of Britain would have been had the circumstances been different.​
Would the German war effort have fared better had they not bombed Britain at all? What if Hitler had begun his bombing campaign earlier, even by just a few weeks? What if they had focused their targets on RAF airfields for the entire course of the battle? Using a statistical technique called weighted bootstrapping, the researchers studied these and other alternatives.​
"The weighted bootstrap technique allowed us to model alternative campaigns in which the Luftwaffe prolongs or contracts the different phases of the battle and varies its targets," said co-author Dr. Jaime Wood in a statement. Based on the different strategic decisions that the German forces could have made, the researchers' model enabled them to predict the likelihood that the events of a given day of fighting would or would not occur.​
"The Luftwaffe would only have been able to make the necessary bases in France available to launch an air attack on Britain in June at the earliest, so our alternative campaign brings forward the air campaign by three weeks," continued Wood. "We tested the impact of this and the other counterfactuals by varying the probabilities with which we choose individual days."​
Ultimately, two strategic tweaks shifted the odds significantly towards the Germans' favor. Had the German forces started their campaign earlier in the year and had they consistently targeted RAF airfields, an Allied victory would have been extremely unlikely.​
Say the odds of a British victory in the real-world Battle of Britain stood at 50-50 (there's no real way of knowing what the actual odds are, so we'll just have to select an arbitrary figure). If this were the case, changing the start date of the campaign and focusing only on airfields would have reduced British chances at victory to just 10 percent. Even if a British victory stood at 98 percent, these changes would have cut them down to just 34 percent.​
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Say the odds of a British victory in the real-world Battle of Britain stood at 50-50
There is no way actual odds were 50-50, they were skewed in British favor from the start.

here's no real way of knowing what the actual odds are
So, they can't calculate the odds from the historical data, but they can calculate the odds for the changes? Yeah, we can file this under ''Pseudoscientific bullshit people make up to pad up the papers''.
The only way the Luftwaffe can start the offensive earlier than in OTL is if they start it before they are fully prepared, which means much worse attrition for the units that open up the offensive.
And constant offensive against the airfields doesn't help either, even during the periods when they were doing it, the attrition rates were unfavorable to Luftwaffe and the British were able to repair the airfields faster than Germans could wreck them. Luftwaffe simply didn't have the numbers to push the RAF into death spiral. Just look at how long it took for Luftwaffe to be be defeated under much worse odds.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
There is no way actual odds were 50-50, they were skewed in British favor from the start.

Say the odds of a British victory in the real-world Battle of Britain stood at 50-50 (there's no real way of knowing what the actual odds are, so we'll just have to select an arbitrary figure). If this were the case, changing the start date of the campaign and focusing only on airfields would have reduced British chances at victory to just 10 percent. Even if a British victory stood at 98 percent, these changes would have cut them down to just 34 percent.

So, they can't calculate the odds from the historical data, but they can calculate the odds for the changes? Yeah, we can file this under ''Pseudoscientific bullshit people make up to pad up the papers''.
The only way the Luftwaffe can start the offensive earlier than in OTL is if they start it before they are fully prepared, which means much worse attrition for the units that open up the offensive.
And constant offensive against the airfields doesn't help either, even during the periods when they were doing it, the attrition rates were unfavorable to Luftwaffe and the British were able to repair the airfields faster than Germans could wreck them. Luftwaffe simply didn't have the numbers to push the RAF into death spiral. Just look at how long it took for Luftwaffe to be be defeated under much worse odds.

Niall MacKay is the Department Head for the University of York's mathematics department, so I don't think this should be dismissed out of hand on the basis of word choice in a news article covering it, rather than assessing the paper based on its own merits. It's linked to in the original post, and the authors did a very good job explaining their methodology. To quote a relevant section, however:

What critical threshold value would constitute the defeat of Fighter Command? As noted earlier, the crux of our method is not to attempt to answer this directly, but rather to calibrate it to prior beliefs using bootstrap methods. Imagine three historians of differing views. One of them believes that the British margin of victory was nil ā€“ that the battle was won on a coin toss ā€“ and thus that the Germans had a probability of victory. A second believes that the British had a modest margin of victory, that it would have taken a moderate amount of deviation from the expected (average) result for the Germans to win, and thus that the British probability of victory was , corresponding to one so-called ā€œstandard deviationā€ Ļƒ from the expected (average) value in a normal distribution (a ā€œbell curveā€). A third believes that a German victory was very unlikely, and would have taken double such a deviation from the average (a ā€œ2Ļƒ eventā€), and thus (on a bell curve) that the British probability of victory was . We then run a simple bootstrap on the Battle of Britain as actually fought, which results in a bell curve of outcomes centred on the actual outcome, and choose the three values of which generate the three historiansā€™ British victory probabilities specified above.​
We then use these three values of in our counterfactual scenarios, resulting for each scenario in three new probabilities. These are robust to small changes in the form of the victory criterion, since this merely mediates between the figures of interest, which are each historianā€™s belief (expressed as a victory probability estimate) about the actual battle, and the belief which it would then be rational for them to assign, on the basis only of the evidence from the actual fighting, to each counterfactual scenario.[1]
 

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