On the net, do you believe that Communism was a good deal or a bad deal for Eastern Europe, excluding the former Soviet space?

[WolfBear]

On the net, do you believe that Communism was a good deal or a bad deal for Eastern Europe, excluding the former Soviet space? Obviously including the ex-Soviet space here would make Communism an extremely massive negative due to the extremely massive death, suffering, and misery that it caused. However, AFAIK, Communist rule in Eastern Europe was milder than it was in the Soviet Union and it also ensured that Eastern Europe would not be flooded with millions of Muslims like Western Europe was while also giving Eastern Europeans an extremely good "vaccine" against various forms of Leftism, including new forms of Leftism such as Wokeness. Western Europe was in a better position than Eastern Europe was during the Cold War, but it now has massive Muslim and Wokeness problems to deal with. On the flip side, though, Western Europe still produces much more elite science than Eastern Europe does even nowadays.

Anyway, what do you think? Was Communism, on the net, a good deal or a bad deal for Eastern Europe? @ATP @Marduk @PsihoKekec

 

[WolfBear]

FWIW, I myself would personally still prefer Western Europe's development path than Eastern Europe's development path. Western Europe still has a higher life expectancy even right now, after all:

And in theory, one can isolate oneself from the more troublesome Third World immigrants who live in certain parts of Western Europe, just like one can live in the US and never go into a heavily black neighborhood during one's entire lifetime. Frankly, I just don't think that Eastern Europe's relative pleasantness right now, excluding its still-existing but narrowing wealth gap with Western Europe, is enough to compensate for decades of prior Communist rule in Eastern Europe, even if it was in a relatively mild form there.

 

[Marduk]

Frankly, I just don't think that Eastern Europe's relative pleasantness right now, excluding its still-existing but narrowing wealth gap with Western Europe, is enough to compensate for decades of prior Communist rule in Eastern Europe, even if it was in a relatively mild form there.

No it's not. The long term social and economic damage is still there, and it will take generations to fix - see: differences between formerly communist parts of Germany and the rest.

On the net, do you believe that Communism was a good deal or a bad deal for Eastern Europe, excluding the former Soviet space?

It wasn't, and it wasn't a deal, because no one was asked if they want it, it was more of an offer they couldn't refuse.

Obviously including the ex-Soviet space here would make Communism an extremely massive negative due to the extremely massive death, suffering, and misery that it caused. However, AFAIK, Communist rule in Eastern Europe was milder than it was in the Soviet Union and it also ensured that Eastern Europe would not be flooded with millions of Muslims like Western Europe was while also giving Eastern Europeans an extremely good "vaccine" against various forms of Leftism, including new forms of Leftism such as Wokeness. Western Europe was in a better position than Eastern Europe was during the Cold War, but it now has massive Muslim and Wokeness problems to deal with. On the flip side, though, Western Europe still produces much more elite science than Eastern Europe does even nowadays.

That varies massively with specific western country. Wokeness spreads extra fast by anglosphere so let's leave that odd one out alone. But as far as the rest goes, there are massive differences. France and Belgium are among the worst immigration wise, Germany has its own baggage skewing all results, and Sweden has crazy amonts of wokeness, but Switzerland and Norway, not that bad at all.

 

[Aldarion]

Maybe, maybe not. Communism was evil, make no mistake, but it also delayed mass immigration and progressive wokeness claptrap that are plaguing the Western Europe right now.

So it may well have been a blessing in disguise, though I fear immunization it provided against leftism may not last sufficiently long.

 

[Cherico]

Maybe, maybe not. Communism was evil, make no mistake, but it also delayed mass immigration and progressive wokeness claptrap that are plaguing the Western Europe right now.

So it may well have been a blessing in disguise, though I fear immunization it provided against leftism may not last sufficiently long.

This is the decade where the world runs out of other peoples money.

Shit is going to start changing with in our lives its going to be a painful decades long fight but I'm pretty confident about the long run.

 

[ATP]

On the net, do you believe that Communism was a good deal or a bad deal for Eastern Europe, excluding the former Soviet space? Obviously including the ex-Soviet space here would make Communism an extremely massive negative due to the extremely massive death, suffering, and misery that it caused. However, AFAIK, Communist rule in Eastern Europe was milder than it was in the Soviet Union and it also ensured that Eastern Europe would not be flooded with millions of Muslims like Western Europe was while also giving Eastern Europeans an extremely good "vaccine" against various forms of Leftism, including new forms of Leftism such as Wokeness. Western Europe was in a better position than Eastern Europe was during the Cold War, but it now has massive Muslim and Wokeness problems to deal with. On the flip side, though, Western Europe still produces much more elite science than Eastern Europe does even nowadays.

Anyway, what do you think? Was Communism, on the net, a good deal or a bad deal for Eastern Europe? @ATP @Marduk @PsihoKekec

Still worst.West is committing suicide on their own,and we arleady have vaccine against leftism after 1920 war.
No matter who would rule Poland,it would be much richer country without muslims.

P.S Before war,Poland had economy like Spain,which was destroyed by cyvil war almost as bad as Poland by WW2.
Look at Spain GDP and our,and you have answer.

 

[WolfBear]

Still worst.West is committing suicide on their own,and we arleady have vaccine against leftism after 1920 war.
No matter who would rule Poland,it would be much richer country without muslims.

P.S Before war,Poland had economy like Spain,which was destroyed by cyvil war almost as bad as Poland by WW2.
Look at Spain GDP and our,and you have answer.

Poland is at around 90% of Spain's level right now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

 

[ATP]

Poland is at around 90% of Spain's level right now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Thanks to Spain leftist who fucked their economy.

 

[WolfBear]

Thanks to Spain leftist who fucked their economy.

Which one? Because Spain is almost at Israeli and Japanese levels even right now, so it can't be fucked up too badly.

 

[Scottty]

I think that Communism being imposed on much of Europe by the Soviets is a huge butterfly. Remove that, and you can't assume that Western progressive wokery would still be there.

A timeline in which Leftism got discredited much earlier might well have less of that nonsense all round.

 

[WolfBear]

I think that Communism being imposed on much of Europe by the Soviets is a huge butterfly. Remove that, and you can't assume that Western progressive wokery would still be there.

A timeline in which Leftism got discredited much earlier might well have less of that nonsense all round.

lol various leftist ideas have existed since at least the Enlightenment:

Noble savage - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Ultimately, communism has placed Eastern Europe in a much worse situation in that Western European companies are able to engage in a certain level of economic exploitation that may end up making things worse for certain nations of that region.

Major Austrian timber firm accused of illegal logging in Romania

Having the Bolshevik Revolution strangled in its crib would have been the best PoD for a human history without Bolshevism.

Paradoxically, the USSR itself, having suffered the German invasions, has the largest Neo-Nazi population in Russia. Weird, since the Nazis didn't really view Russians as human beings. However, there was that brief episode where the Nazis were actually allied to the Soviets.

Meanwhile, I came across several articles in the Balkan Insight site, where Croatia often protests against any symbols even remotely associated with socialist Yugoslavia, which is understandable, given that Bleiburg happened with the collaboration between the British Army and Yugoslav Partisans.

Red Star Monument in Rijeka Angers Croatian War Veterans

1990s War Veteran Urges Croatia to Cherish Anti-Fascist Legacy

 

[Scottty]

lol various leftist ideas have existed since at least the Enlightenment:

Noble savage - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Much earlier than that. Communism in the simple sense of abolition of private property (usually meaning other people's property, of course!) goes back a long way.

The essence of Leftism is an extreme, out-of-control egalitarianism, usually as a smokescreen for their own group taking everything from everyone else.

Paradoxically, the USSR itself, having suffered the German invasions, has the largest Neo-Nazi population in Russia. Weird, since the Nazis didn't really view Russians as human beings. However, there was that brief episode where the Nazis were actually allied to the Soviets.

Marxism-Leninism and National Socialism are at heart, very similar ideologies. Nazism is fundamentally a Leftwing ideology, only superficially disguised as Rightwing.

Consider:

"It is you, the common people, whose productive labour produces everything of value, but yet, you live in poverty. Why? Because of the Church, whose clergy steal everything from you!"

"It is you, the common people, whose productive labour produces everything of value, but yet, you live in poverty. Why? Because of the so-called Nobility, who steal everything from you!"

"It is you, the workers, whose productive labour produces everything of value, but yet, you live in poverty. Why? Because of the Capitalists, who steal everything from you!"

"It is you, the German people, whose productive labour produces everything of value, but yet, you live in poverty. Why? Because of the Jews, who steal everything from you!"

I'm literally just copy-pasting there, and editing a few of the words. But it's all the same template.

 

[WolfBear]

Much earlier than that. Communism in the simple sense of abolition of private property (usually meaning other people's property, of course!) goes back a long way.

The essence of Leftism is an extreme, out-of-control egalitarianism, usually as a smokescreen for their own group taking everything from everyone else.



Marxism-Leninism and National Socialism are at heart, very similar ideologies. Nazism is fundamentally a Leftwing ideology, only superficially disguised as Rightwing.

Consider:

"It is you, the common people, whose productive labour produces everything of value, but yet, you live in poverty. Why? Because of the Church, whose clergy steal everything from you!"

"It is you, the common people, whose productive labour produces everything of value, but yet, you live in poverty. Why? Because of the so-called Nobility, who steal everything from you!"

"It is you, the workers, whose productive labour produces everything of value, but yet, you live in poverty. Why? Because of the Capitalists, who steal everything from you!"

"It is you, the German people, whose productive labour produces everything of value, but yet, you live in poverty. Why? Because of the Jews, who steal everything from you!"

I'm literally just copy-pasting there, and editing a few of the words. But it's all the same template.

What's interesting about the Nazis is that they blamed Jews for both predatory crony capitalism AND Communism, with both of these things being viewed as tools of Jewish world domination.

 

[History Learner]

Without the Bolsheviks, there would've been 260 million Russians within the current Russian Federation's borders. Without Lenin artificially creating Ukraine, it (and Belarus) would have been culturally absorbed into Russia as a whole and we'd see a Russia that probably has 400 million people. At a GDP per capita of $10,000 that would be an economy of $4 Trillion.

 

[WolfBear]

Without the Bolsheviks, there would've been 260 million Russians within the current Russian Federation's borders. Without Lenin artificially creating Ukraine, it (and Belarus) would have been culturally absorbed into Russia as a whole and we'd see a Russia that probably has 400 million people. At a GDP per capita of $10,000 that would be an economy of $4 Trillion.

The idea that Lenin artificially created Ukraine is a myth; even back in 1917, Ukrainians voted for the Ukrainian Socialist Revolutionary Party rather than for the Russian one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election#/media/File:1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election_results_map.svg

This is comparable to Poles, Alsatians, Danes, Hanoverians, et cetera in Imperial Germany voting for autonomist parties in Reichstag elections, such as in 1912:

1912 German federal election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hanoverians stayed within the German Reich and of course eventually reacquired their own federal unit within Germany, but the other groups mentioned above all seceded from Germany in due time.

And Russia's GDP PPP per capita in this TL would very likely be comparable to the French or at least Italian one. Russia's average IQ would be comparable to France or Italy, after all. And Russia would have much more natural resources.

 

[Scottty]

What's interesting about the Nazis is that they blamed Jews for both predatory crony capitalism AND Communism, with both of these things being viewed as tools of Jewish world domination.

I don't have time this morning to make an image, but I'm imagining a psychologist holding up two pictures: one of them is Happy Merchant in a monocle and top-hat, and the other is of Leon Trotsky.
Hitler looks at the two pictures and says: "They are both the same picture!"

Joking apart, the trick with that sort of propaganda would be to talk about the Evil Jewish Capitalists when speaking to working-class people, but talk about the Evil Jewish Communists when talking to the business community.
And try not to let the one group overhear what you said to the other group.

 

[WolfBear]

FWIW, if you're curious why southern Ukraine was less inclined to vote for the Ukrainian Socialist Revolutionary Party (a Ukrainian autonomist party) in comparison to northern Ukraine in 1917, it might be because southern Ukraine was less Ukrainian than northern Ukraine was back then. Here's a 1926 map of the Ukrainian SSR by the ethnic Ukrainian percentage in various parts of it:

 

[History Learner]

The idea that Lenin artificially created Ukraine is a myth; even back in 1917, Ukrainians voted for the Ukrainian Socialist Revolutionary Party rather than for the Russian one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election#/media/File:1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election_results_map.svg

This is comparable to Poles, Alsatians, Danes, Hanoverians, et cetera in Imperial Germany voting for autonomist parties in Reichstag elections, such as in 1912:

1912 German federal election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hanoverians stayed within the German Reich and of course eventually reacquired their own federal unit within Germany, but the other groups mentioned above all seceded from Germany in due time.

And Russia's GDP PPP per capita in this TL would very likely be comparable to the French or at least Italian one. Russia's average IQ would be comparable to France or Italy, after all. And Russia would have much more natural resources.

Autonomy =/= Secessionism, we also need to keep in mind Ukrainian nationalism was being propped up by the Central Powers as a force and it rapidly went back under once that was withdrawn. Specifically, however, I'm looking at later events; Russian language publications far exceeded Ukrainian ones until the mid to late 20s under the Soviets, who instituted mass Ukrainian language education. This trend reversed in the mid 1980s, even despite 60+ years of the existence of the Ukrainian SSR. It didn't start turning back until around 2010.

 

[WolfBear]

Autonomy =/= Secessionism, we also need to keep in mind Ukrainian nationalism was being propped up by the Central Powers as a force and it rapidly went back under once that was withdrawn. Specifically, however, I'm looking at later events; Russian language publications far exceeded Ukrainian ones until the mid to late 20s under the Soviets, who instituted mass Ukrainian language education. This trend reversed in the mid 1980s, even despite 60+ years of the existence of the Ukrainian SSR. It didn't start turning back until around 2010.

Autonomy does indicate a separate identity, though. Similar to how Southern whites in the US feel nowadays. As for Russian language publications far exceeding Ukrainian ones, I'm not sure that this is exactly relevant here since one could be a Scottish or an Irish or a Welsh nationalist and yet speak English to a much greater extent than one would speak Scottish Gaelic or Irish or Welsh. Yet this still wouldn't mean that one would classify oneself as an Englishmen instead of as a Scot/Irishman/Welshman.

Even nowadays, 41% of Ukrainians consider themselves and Russians to be one people, and yet they still hate Russia's guts:

41% of Ukrainians Agree They and Russians Are One People

These are the results of a recent poll from Rating Group. 41% agree with Putin's position, 55% disagree. Not bad, considering there's now been a generation's worth of state svidomy narratives. But possibly the most startling result (and certainly one that I didn't expect is there there's...

www.unz.com