On the net, do you believe that Communism was a good deal or a bad deal for Eastern Europe, excluding the former Soviet space?

[Marduk]

Got a concrete example of that working?

Got a concrete example of your preference working?

Elites are far more likely to do that if they become part of an entrenched, degenerate multi-generational oligarchy.
I would rather have darwinistic elites who want their brats to succeed the way they did, by their own bootstraps in an environment of severe darwinian selection.

That's a matter of elite's culture, not any kind of laws that would have any chance of binding them, rather than being exploited by them.

Yeah, I think that we have two different notions of what "elite" is.
In your case you are making it sound synonymous to an oligarchy, whileas it should be "whoever managed to get through the meatgrinder with the most finesse and grit."

Functionally, they end up in oligarchy, however they got there.

In any case, the concept of "no skin in the game" electoral power should be constitutionally enshrined, and the requirements can be set in such a way as to make sure that no cushy jobs are created.

And everyone should have their own unicorn with that...
This just isn't how extensive government regulation bodies work and survive.

This along with proper schooling should create a class of Citizen that will defend to the death the limitations and prerequisites of the special election system, and fight against entrenchment.

Again, wishful thinking on the level of "communism would work if only we made sure everyone was a dedicated enough communist willing to sacrifice all personal interests for communism".

Personally I'd rather have governance by custom/principal, by written law, or by a limited, selective group of worthies than by moronic nation-wide over-18 head counting, as long as my personal freedoms are also safeguarded by a legal code.
A pro-business dictator like Lee Kuan Yew is also preferable to U.S. style democracy.

Reaching into typical "benevolent dictatorship" conundrum. Sure, a benevolent dictator can be great... But unless he's immortal, one day he will be replaced by another, not necessarily so competent and/or benevolent. And what you're gonna do? He's a dictator.
Still, Singapore is not even that great example for countries not aspiring to be a diverse city-state focused on economy numbers without a specific nation for the government to represent.

Not exactly, Dr. Edward Dutton thinks it is an individualist value.After all, it is no skin off my nose if you want to be referred to as a flying unicorn and I will avoid personal harm by being polite.

So? Was it such an overwhelming value in the West of 1700 or 1900? Perhaps in the stereotypically individualistic Wild West era USA? Yeah, seems like a rather modern invention, even if made in the West, but definitely not a traditional value of even most individualistic parts of the West.

The democrats are a problem because of U.S. universalism and because conservatives are not willing to step up and fight for some institutions, like education.
That tug of war has been going for a long while, and IMHO shit like creationism has as much place in chassrooms as Marx does, read, 0.
Check the PISA scores, most of the top 10 are in Asia.

As I said, centralized systems have worked quite well in places like Asia.

Asian cultures worked on that for thousands of years. Even then, they still suffer the downsides - see: how exactly China gets its high scores in PISA
Hey, score is score, that's what counts, right?

 

[WolfBear]

Better yet, 13 Colonies vs British Empire. Actually the same people, yet they threw a damn revolution to not be ruled by London, and made a whole new identity out of that.
And London wasn't even that bad when compared to being ruled by Moscow.

As for why Ukrainians use Russian so much, this is part of artificial interventions by Russians and later Soviets (with a pause by Lenin in order for the Russian national position internally in the USSR to not be unmanageably strong), that were oriented specifically to do that, and to assimilate non-Russian subjects of Russian Empire\USSR into Russian people.

Russification of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ukraine is not special in that regard, this was Russia's SOP even before communism.

Russification of Poles during the Partitions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Finland

Russification and the Lithuanians, 1863-1905 on JSTOR

Theodore R. Weeks, Russification and the Lithuanians, 1863-1905, Slavic Review, Vol. 60, No. 1 (Spring, 2001), pp. 96-114

www.jstor.org

>Forces use of Russian language in education, administration and even printed literature
>Oh my, guess people are using Russian language more totally out of their free will because they love Russia that much
If someone was doing something like that today, it would be considered cultural genocide, not unlike what China does in Tibet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet

That's why so many people consider undoing of Russification in that region something rightful and justified and don't take Moscow's whining about it seriously.
"Nooooo stop undoing our cultural genocide we worked really hard to do it!"

It's worth noting that Tsarist Russia suppressed the Ukrainian language for decades:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valuev_Circular

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ems_Ukaz

This might have strengthened the relative position of Russian relative to Ukrainian in regards to book publishing, et cetera even after these restrictions were relaxed, since the legacy of decades' worth of these restrictions could have still existed even after these restrictions themselves were gone. But again, one can speak Russian and identify as Ukrainian just like one can speak English and identify as a Scot, an Irishman, or a Welshman. There's absolutely no contradiction here. Similarly, one can identify as a Jew, even a non-religious one, without ever speaking Yiddish, Hebrew, and/or Ladino.

 

[WolfBear]

Choosing to use the Russian language, instead of their own, is indicative of preference because Ukrainian is alive and well in a way Welsh and Scots hasn't been for quite sometime. It's also worth noting that usage of the Russian language correlated well with Ukrainian polling on their status vis-a-vis Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union and is remarkably tied into the events of the 2010s. Russian language publications became to decline after 2010-which marked the high point of desire in Ukraine to directly join Russia-and then precipitously after 2014. If it wasn't tied into identity, it should not have declined after 2014.

Could the decline in Russian-language publications in Ukraine after 2014 have had anything to do with pro-Ukrainian affirmative action programs/quotas in regards to publishing or whatever? At the very least, it sounds like a plausible hypothesis.

And Yes, it actually did make sense for Ukrainian writers in the 1920s to write in Russian in order for them to reach an even larger audience. This would be especially true if they wanted their works to be read in other parts of the Soviet Union, not just in the Ukrainian SSR.

 

[Agent23]

Got a concrete example of your preference working?

Germany is a very high tax country, and all of the families that own their Mittelstandt and bigger companies certainly haven't left.
There are tons of US and UK companies that could ditch the USA and UK and enjoy lower taxation and sell their goods all over the world.
Phillip Morrison is one great example, their "home" market is minuscule as compared to what they make in Asia and Continental Europe, and there is massive stigma against tobacco in the west.
They could return more money to investors that way and not have to use a bunch of UK tax loopholes.

That's a matter of elite's culture, not any kind of laws that would have any chance of binding them, rather than being exploited by them.

So we kick them out and put new elites in, ones that remember where they have come from.
That problem is accidentally as old as Rome, by the way, and elite culture should be an outgrowth of the national culture, those people are ellected officials and bureaucrats who are paid by the people, they are just custodians, they serve us, not we them.

Functionally, they end up in oligarchy, however they got there.

yes, and certian measures can be made to block that oligarchy, like making positive nationalism great again.
You know, that one prominent guy from that area you really want to nick from the Russians said that he was, quote "The first servant of the state"

And everyone should have their own unicorn with that...
This just isn't how extensive government regulation bodies work and survive.

Worked pretty well for spart, for the original Slavs who "decided everything in democracy", which was comprised by all of the tribe's warriors.
Those people had skin in the game because warfare was the most important part of the tribe's function.

Again, wishful thinking on the level of "communism would work if only we made sure everyone was a dedicated enough communist willing to sacrifice all personal interests for communism".

Yeah, no, I see no counter-argument here.

Reaching into typical "benevolent dictatorship" conundrum. Sure, a benevolent dictator can be great... But unless he's immortal, one day he will be replaced by another, not necessarily so competent and/or benevolent. And what you're gonna do? He's a dictator.
Still, Singapore is not even that great example for countries not aspiring to be a diverse city-state focused on economy numbers without a specific nation for the government to represent.

Singapore, South Korea, hell even Taiwan started as a dictatorship, Shek managed to do it right on the second try.Vietnam is also doing quite well economically.

So? Was it such an overwhelming value in the West of 1700 or 1900? Perhaps in the stereotypically individualistic Wild West era USA? Yeah, seems like a rather modern invention, even if made in the West, but definitely not a traditional value of even most individualistic parts of the West.

Romanticized frontier stuff, pfeh, the problem with the Americans is that they are not a true nation-state, let alone a people in the sense we use the word.

Asian cultures worked on that for thousands of years. Even then, they still suffer the downsides - see: how exactly China gets its high scores in PISA
Hey, score is score, that's what counts, right?

Oh, so Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and all of the others in the top 10 cheat?

Also, fun fact, this whole exams business was originally invented by China for civil servants, then France stole the idea.

 

[Aldarion]

I think we have a chicken and egg problem here.

Communism and its fight with Globalist American liberalism caused much of the problems in the third world as well as the declines in birth rates and destruction of traditional culture in the West.
Decolonization was pushed by both the USSR and the Americans, and both worked hard to stick their proxies in as replacements, and much of the guilt that drives out traditional values and encourages mass migration can be attributed directly to the universalist tendencies inherent in both those ideologies.

Without both we would have been more capitalist than under communism, but not as capitalist as modern America is IMHO.

We never had colonies, and we do not use French or English, so we will not be flooded with as many migrants, and decolonization would probably be a more gradual affair, with autonomy being dolled out the colonies by their respective metropolies in response to growing nationalism over there.
Much of the growing neoliberalism at the moment is IMHO not native to Europe but rather stuff that is inherent in the US system.

We would also keep a lot of our older institutions, like kings and other royalty.

Agreed, although I am on the fence on whether modern Marxism / Progressivism is a relict of historical Marxist / Communism, a product of liberal capitalism, or both? Because when you look at it, the people who benefit the most from the "there is only one race - human race", "you can choose your sex / gender", "there are 78243402 genders", "PRAISE THE SLAANESH" claptrap - are big-name capitalists. They are basically destroying everything that makes humans, well, human, turning us into cardboard cutout consoomers in the process.

American revolution may well be the greatest evil ever, when you look at it this way.

 

[Agent23]

Agreed, although I am on the fence on whether modern Marxism / Progressivism is a relict of historical Marxist / Communism, a product of liberal capitalism, or both? Because when you look at it, the people who benefit the most from the "there is only one race - human race", "you can choose your sex / gender", "there are 78243402 genders", "PRAISE THE SLAANESH" claptrap - are big-name capitalists. They are basically destroying everything that makes humans, well, human, turning us into cardboard cutout consoomers in the process.

American revolution may well be the greatest evil ever, when you look at it this way.

They are morons chasing a few extra dimes and politicians looking some extra votes and virtue signalling celebs looking for likes.
However that is a symptom of the disease, not the source of the disease itself.
The source of the disease came into prominence in the 60s, with the massively self-indulgent egocentric culture the hippies inflicted upon us.
Buy now, pay later.
Take drugs.
Fuck like rabbits.
market overpriced garbage to children.

All that stuff turned that generation and their children into self-centered, sanctimonious and entitled brats.

Consumerist Das Man rather than a true free individual.

 

[Cherico]

Agreed, although I am on the fence on whether modern Marxism / Progressivism is a relict of historical Marxist / Communism, a product of liberal capitalism, or both? Because when you look at it, the people who benefit the most from the "there is only one race - human race", "you can choose your sex / gender", "there are 78243402 genders", "PRAISE THE SLAANESH" claptrap - are big-name capitalists. They are basically destroying everything that makes humans, well, human, turning us into cardboard cutout consoomers in the process.

American revolution may well be the greatest evil ever, when you look at it this way.

French revolution had more to do with that fuckery then the american one.

 

[Agent23]

French revolution had more to do with that fuckery then the american one.

Well, at least some of it has to do with the morally absolutist 'Shining City on a Hill' that the USA started pushing as a counter to Soviet Propaganda and as a rationale for some of their dumber stunts.
However that all had its genesis in the mind of a megalomaniacal prick called Woodrow Wilson.
Wilsonian Liberalism is one of the reasons the USA is screwed so heavily today, and that stuff is IMHO heavily grounded in american puritanism, although the puritanism of the piligrims was decidedly anti-individualist IMHO.

 

[Marduk]

Germany is a very high tax country, and all of the families that own their Mittelstandt and bigger companies certainly haven't left.
There are tons of US and UK companies that could ditch the USA and UK and enjoy lower taxation and sell their goods all over the world.
Phillip Morrison is one great example, their "home" market is minuscule as compared to what they make in Asia and Continental Europe, and there is massive stigma against tobacco in the west.
They could return more money to investors that way and not have to use a bunch of UK tax loopholes.

Ah, so its just about appearances, not working. Because newsflash, Germany's top bracket 50% inheritance tax is notoriously dodged by those who would lose a lot on it, in similar ways to how taxes are dodged by the rich pretty much anywhere they are high.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/360718159_Inheritance_Tax_Evasion_in_Germany

It is estimated, that between 2015 and 2024 about 3 trillion € will be inherited in Germany. Due to far-reaching tax exemptions, the inheritance tax revenue per year is only about 7 billion €.

Looks like hardly anyone is actually paying those high taxes. 3 trillion to 7 billion. Barely over 0.2%.

So we kick them out and put new elites in, ones that remember where they have come from.
That problem is accidentally as old as Rome, by the way, and elite culture should be an outgrowth of the national culture, those people are ellected officials and bureaucrats who are paid by the people, they are just custodians, they serve us, not we them.

That sort of obvious solution implies small, tightly knit, civically involved nations with a considerable focus on doing that. May work well in Switzerland or Iceland. In a huge mess of hundreds of interest groups that ignore each other at best and despise each other at worst like USA? Not a chance. Bureaucrats and politicians don't serve "the people", they serve one or few of these groups.

yes, and certian measures can be made to block that oligarchy, like making positive nationalism great again.

Yeah, that would be a start, and that would need to filter up to the elite.

Worked pretty well for spart, for the original Slavs who "decided everything in democracy", which was comprised by all of the tribe's warriors.
Those people had skin in the game because warfare was the most important part of the tribe's function.

Worked while it did, in the long run Sparta became history, while Athens remained in charge.

Singapore, South Korea, hell even Taiwan started as a dictatorship, Shek managed to do it right on the second try.Vietnam is also doing quite well economically.

Obviously many countries started as dictatorships, and those with longer histories even started as monarchies. But most weren't nice places to live in by today's standards.
Obviously a warlord/king/warlord king is a simple and effective way to cobble together a country out of a fallen empire, few medieval tribes or something like that, but maintaining, nevermind improving a non pocket sized first world country is a different matter.

Romanticized frontier stuff, pfeh, the problem with the Americans is that they are not a true nation-state, let alone a people in the sense we use the word.

Still you can't deny USA of old was culturally oriented around that kind of individualism, not some modern safetyist mutated crossbreed of individualism with cultural marxism and neoliberalism.

Oh, so Singapore, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and all of the others in the top 10 cheat?

Also, fun fact, this whole exams business was originally invented by China for civil servants, then France stole the idea.

Well those are less centralized than the PRC, more westernized, and still they aren't the places where stuff like industrial or IT revolutions started, just that pesky individualistic West.

 

[Aldarion]

French revolution had more to do with that fuckery then the american one.

French Revolution however was inspired by the American revolution. And at least since World War II, US had been setting the trends.

They are morons chasing a few extra dimes and politicians looking some extra votes and virtue signalling celebs looking for likes.
However that is a symptom of the disease, not the source of the disease itself.
The source of the disease came into prominence in the 60s, with the massively self-indulgent egocentric culture the hippies inflicted upon us.
Buy now, pay later.
Take drugs.
Fuck like rabbits.
market overpriced garbage to children.

All that stuff turned that generation and their children into self-centered, sanctimonious and entitled brats.

Consumerist Das Man rather than a true free individual.

Maybe, but where did all of that come from? Personally, I'd say that it originates in the materialistic mindset that again is a product of a combination of liberal capitalism, French Revolution and Marxism.

 

[Cherico]

French Revolution however was inspired by the American revolution. And at least since World War II, US had been setting the trends.



Maybe, but where did all of that come from? Personally, I'd say that it originates in the materialistic mindset that again is a product of a combination of liberal capitalism, French Revolution and Marxism.

in our defense we spent decades years, billions of dollars, and a ton of blood and treasure trying to prevent the worst case senerio fighting communism all over the fucking world.

Yes we fucked up mainly because the boomers were shit but at least we fought that fight. If you want to truely blame some one for the fucky of the 20th century then the culprit was a Serbian fuck boy who just had to have his fucking way.

 

[Agent23]

Ah, so its just about appearances, not working. Because newsflash, Germany's top bracket 50% inheritance tax is notoriously dodged by those who would lose a lot on it, in similar ways to how taxes are dodged by the rich pretty much anywhere they are high.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/360718159_Inheritance_Tax_Evasion_in_Germany

Looks like hardly anyone is actually paying those high taxes. 3 trillion to 7 billion. Barely over 0.2%.

Yeah, no.
German tax on investments is massive, tax rate of 25% plus 5.5% solidarity surcharge (in total 26.375%, plus church tax if applicable) This applies for both dividends and sales.And taxes on incomes above 60k are over 42%.

That sort of obvious solution implies small, tightly knit, civically involved nations with a considerable focus on doing that. May work well in Switzerland or Iceland. In a huge mess of hundreds of interest groups that ignore each other at best and despise each other at worst like USA? Not a chance. Bureaucrats and politicians don't serve "the people", they serve one or few of these groups.

Or an ethnostate, you know like a bunch of homogeneous Asian countries and Europe prior to the 90s.
Alternately, the dominant group forces everyone to assimilate or fuck off to wherever they came from.
You know, as Trump said, "America, love it or leave it." as well as the whole "Melting Pot" that was prominent before all the multiculturalism crap started.
However, the USA became a major destination for exiles from all over because it let small groups do whatever they wanted without prosecuting them for their cultish practices, like the Mennonites, Amish Mormons, jehovah's Witnesses and all the other loons.
They didn't bother the dominant anglosaxon protestant culture and it did not bother them.Later the USA tried to centralize, with a push against hyphenated Americans and naturalization programs, see Kissinger and Teddy Roosevelt.

Need I translate.

Yeah, that would be a start, and that would need to filter up to the elite.

Christianity did.
All the disgusting libertine crap from the 60s did.

Worked while it did, in the long run Sparta became history, while Athens remained in charge.

Wrong, Sparta WON the Peloponnesian War and formed an Empire, but was quite exhausted and the rest of teh greek world had issues with Spartan behavior, and later Phillip of Macedon smashed them both and took most of the Greek world under his control.

Obviously many countries started as dictatorships, and those with longer histories even started as monarchies. But most weren't nice places to live in by today's standards.
Obviously a warlord/king/warlord king is a simple and effective way to cobble together a country out of a fallen empire, few medieval tribes or something like that, but maintaining, nevermind improving a non pocket sized first world country is a different matter.

By today's standards, your average bum lives better than J. D. Rockefeller.

Still you can't deny USA of old was culturally oriented around that kind of individualism, not some modern safetyist mutated crossbreed of individualism with cultural marxism and neoliberalism.

No, it was a loose confederation of states with lots of autonomy, it had group freedoms but a lot of personal freedoms were curtailed, such as interracial marriages.
The place was never a true, unified society.

Well those are less centralized than the PRC, more westernized, and still they aren't the places where stuff like industrial or IT revolutions started, just that pesky individualistic West.

Yes, industrial development happened in Europe and only then moved to the USA, in no small part because of the constant warfare experienced by the continent.
Computers?
They were invented on the basis of research done by European scientists and boosted massively by warfare, which is the ultimate competition.

 

[Agent23]

in our defense we spent decades years, billions of dollars, and a ton of blood and treasure trying to prevent the worst case senerio fighting communism all over the fucking world.

Yes we fucked up mainly because the boomers were shit but at least we fought that fight. If you want to truely blame some one for the fucky of the 20th century then the culprit was a Serbian fuck boy who just had to have his fucking way.

Actually, we should blame Japan, the Russo-Japanese war set the stage for communism to take over in Russia as well as WWI.
Their brutality in China discredited and damaged the Kuomintang and strengthened the commies.
Their obsession with Just in time deliveries and hyper optimized supply chains got us into the inflationary mess we are in with chip shortages and the like.
😂

 

[Marduk]

Yeah, no.
German tax on investments is massive, tax rate of 25% plus 5.5% solidarity surcharge (in total 26.375%, plus church tax if applicable) This applies for both dividends and sales.And taxes on incomes above 60k are over 42%.

Sure, some of the high taxes they pay, others are there mostly to give lawyers work and make socialists happy, like the 50% inheritance tax you thought so effective.

Or an ethnostate, you know like a bunch of homogeneous Asian countries and Europe prior to the 90s.

That helps, but alone is not enough, see how many of these countries in Europe stopped being so in the first place. All it takes is a socialist government or few too greedy liberal ones.

Christianity did.
All the disgusting libertine crap from the 60s did.

One took hundreds of years, other was there already to the degree they care about it more than as a PR tool.

Wrong, Sparta WON the Peloponnesian War and formed an Empire, but was quite exhausted and the rest of teh greek world had issues with Spartan behavior, and later Phillip of Macedon smashed them both and took most of the Greek world under his control.

See? It "worked" so well that it got them into a situation where they were struggling with fielding armies yet everyone hated them.

No, it was a loose confederation of states with lots of autonomy, it had group freedoms but a lot of personal freedoms were curtailed, such as interracial marriages.
The place was never a true, unified society.

Freedoms which a strong majority of the society in question genuinely doesn't want, and most of the rest won't admit to wanting aren't exactly a prime example of lack of individualism, just society having its cultural mores. Individualist culture is not the same as total anarchy in all aspects of life.

Yes, industrial development happened in Europe and only then moved to the USA, in no small part because of the constant warfare experienced by the continent.
Computers?
They were invented on the basis of research done by European scientists and boosted massively by warfare, which is the ultimate competition.

Preparation for warfare sparked by some kind of threat close or distant definitely helps. Though it's not like Asia or Africa didn't have that.

 

[Aldarion]

in our defense we spent decades years, billions of dollars, and a ton of blood and treasure trying to prevent the worst case senerio fighting communism all over the fucking world.

Yes we fucked up mainly because the boomers were shit but at least we fought that fight. If you want to truely blame some one for the fucky of the 20th century then the culprit was a Serbian fuck boy who just had to have his fucking way.

Eh, that Serbian fuck boy was a product of Serbian ideologues that had been pushing for Greater Serbia since Ilija Garašanin wrote his Načertanije in 1844., or maybe even earlier.

 

[Cherico]

Eh, that Serbian fuck boy was a product of Serbian ideologues that had been pushing for Greater Serbia since Ilija Garašanin wrote his Načertanije in 1844., or maybe even earlier.

but you do agree that he was in fact a fuck boy.

 

[WolfBear]

in our defense we spent decades years, billions of dollars, and a ton of blood and treasure trying to prevent the worst case senerio fighting communism all over the fucking world.

Yes we fucked up mainly because the boomers were shit but at least we fought that fight. If you want to truely blame some one for the fucky of the 20th century then the culprit was a Serbian fuck boy who just had to have his fucking way.

Gavrilo Princip?

 

[Agent23]

Sure, some of the high taxes they pay, others are there mostly to give lawyers work and make socialists happy, like the 50% inheritance tax you thought so effective.

No, I said that in Germany taxes were high overall.
How come the majority of their family-owned businesses have not moved out, then?
By your logic it should have been deindustrailized and stopped innovating long ago.
The number of patents and the patents issued in Germany and the size of their industrial economy clearly points to something else besides taxes being a major motivator.Like, oh, I dunno, the Lemings' national pride and respect for customs and the rule of law and for their ancestral achievements, meaning whatever factory for making world class ball bearings the current generation of lemmings owns trumping the pure profit motive?!
Like it or not, humans are collectivist animals to a great degree.

That helps, but alone is not enough, see how many of these countries in Europe stopped being so in the first place. All it takes is a socialist government or few too greedy liberal ones.

I sure as hell do not see those types of universalist ideologies as compatible with a proper ethnostate.

One took hundreds of years, other was there already to the degree they care about it more than as a PR tool.

Elites can be forced to comply with social mores.When they become out of touch they get too out of touch and fuck over the country, they guillotined.
Does the concept of a "Mandate of Haven" ring a bell?

See? It "worked" so well that it got them into a situation where they were struggling with fielding armies yet everyone hated them.

Considering you thought that Sparta LOST the Poloponesian War to begin with I find your doubling down kinda funny.
They overstretched and their very selective and meritocratic system that had worked for hundreds of years, was stretched thin, all because Athens fell into the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap.

Freedoms which a strong majority of the society in question genuinely doesn't want, and most of the rest won't admit to wanting aren't exactly a prime example of lack of individualism, just society having its cultural mores. Individualist culture is not the same as total anarchy in all aspects of life.

First off, what we call individualist culture is not what the 13 colonies and other constituent groups wanted.For some it was commercial interests for others it was religion and a stronger connection to their state/colony than the wider Metropoly for a third group the Metropoly did not give them their legally given rights as de fact citizens of it.
Second, there is a difference between liberty and being a libertine troglodite consumerist.
The individualist thinks for himself, the self-centered moron who thinks he is free follows the other sheep.

Preparation for warfare sparked by some kind of threat close or distant definitely helps. Though it's not like Asia or Africa didn't have that.

Wrong again, Europe's heartland was never consolidated, the way Asia's was, which led to almost constant warfare and bickering between states and sub-state groupings.
This led to a lot of technical and social innovation.

 

[Agent23]

Eh, that Serbian fuck boy was a product of Serbian ideologues that had been pushing for Greater Serbia since Ilija Garašanin wrote his Načertanije in 1844., or maybe even earlier.

Better yet, just force Austria-Hungary to step back and let us kick the Serbs' teeth out.

 

[Marduk]

No, I said that in Germany taxes were high overall.
How come the majority of their family-owned businesses have not moved out, then?

Ask a lawyer. I've shown you numbers that as far as inheritance tax goes extremely little is paid, they probably qualify for some of the mentioned many types of waivers.

By your logic it should have been deindustrailized and stopped innovating long ago.
The number of patents and the patents issued in Germany and the size of their industrial economy clearly points to something else besides taxes being a major motivator.Like, oh, I dunno, the Lemings' national pride and respect for customs and the rule of law and for their ancestral achievements, meaning whatever factory for making world class ball bearings the current generation of lemmings owns trumping the pure profit motive?!
Like it or not, humans are collectivist animals to a great degree.

Close but no cigar, less collectivism, more pure calculation in being established in making high quality niche machines and machine parts, and the manpower for that being there and not in Bangladesh.

I sure as hell do not see those types of universalist ideologies as compatible with a proper ethnostate.

Neither do i, if EU wants to survive it could do well with far less universalism.

Elites can be forced to comply with social mores.When they become out of touch they get too out of touch and fuck over the country, they guillotined.

How can they be forced if they are the ones who control the force based institutions? We can't organize a mass uprising by fucking telepathy. Organizing an overthrow of elites, over social mores at that, is a massive challenge of organization, communication, politics, and having an actual replacement available.

Does the concept of a "Mandate of Haven" ring a bell?

Among the Chinese it does.

Considering you thought that Sparta LOST the Poloponesian War to begin with I find your doubling down kinda funny.

No, you are funny for filling in the blanks about which war i said they lost, which i left unspecified
The fact that they did well in short term means little in the context where in the end they are history.

They overstretched and their very selective and meritocratic system that had worked for hundreds of years, was stretched thin, all because Athens fell into the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap.

Their "very selective and meritocratic system" was also very specialized for military purposes, and not so good at anything else.
That's why in the end Athens, despite earlier losses, Macedonian takeover, Rome and later history ended up as the cultural and political center of Greece, and Sparta was sidelined completely in the long run.

First off, what we call individualist culture is not what the 13 colonies and other constituent groups wanted.For some it was commercial interests for others it was religion and a stronger connection to their state/colony than the wider Metropoly for a third group the Metropoly did not give them their legally given rights as de fact citizens of it.
Second, there is a difference between liberty and being a libertine troglodite consumerist.
The individualist thinks for himself, the self-centered moron who thinks he is free follows the other sheep.

Ah, so we're not even talking about individualist culture anymore, just a specific type of modern western liberal-socialist hybrid culture that's not very individualist at all if you listen to them about what are all sorts of "communities" that you are supposed to care about because they are oppressed.

Wrong again, Europe's heartland was never consolidated, the way Asia's was, which led to almost constant warfare and bickering between states and sub-state groupings.
This led to a lot of technical and social innovation.

Consolidated or not, they still weren't short on warfare.