On china

Cherico

Well-known member
So we’re out of the woods? Right? The threat to the global trading system is now addressed?

Um, no.

Trade deals can come in all shapes and sizes but roughly put there are those that restructure industries, those that restructure countries, and those that restructure the world. When it comes to China, Trump is going for the latter. The problem is that you don’t restructure the world without restructuring the Chinese economy and you can’t restructure the Chinese economy without restructuring the political system all the way up to the very tippy top. The people at the tippy top have some say in how that all goes down… the question is how much.

To figure out just how much say they have, let’s revisit what the Trump administration is demanding:

  • An end to industrial subsidies including the end to the Chinese practice of flooding its market with cheap capital. Favored companies today can expect those loans to be rolled over indefinitely. Given that kind of leeway, these companies went after market share rather than profits. In other words: China brims with overcapacity, a factoid which drives product prices down, commodity prices up, forces the Chinese to dump their products into other markets, and drives competitors in other countries out of business.
  • An end to all state-run cybertheft and an end to the systematic practice of joint ventures which require technology transfer. The Americans claim, reasonably, that this harms American companies that go through the effort of research and development. It adds to the cost of securing information and just generally sucks.
  • The immediate opening of nearly all sectors of the Chinese economy to fully-foreign owned firms. In other words: competition from the outside in all sectors. Since Chinese firms are for the most part competitive due to price, and that price competitiveness is due to heavy subsidies, remove those subsidies and allow more efficient foreigners to enter China’s home market and mass bankruptcies are the logical outcome.

From the American perspective, this sounds like a decidedly easy problem to fix.

Step one, simply stop massively subsidizing industries and infrastructure that the economy can’t meaningfully absorb. Step two, stop taking intellectual property that isn’t yours. Step three, become a true capitalist society with competition from the outside… ok, that last one sounds like a lot no matter how you say it.

But the point is: sure, maybe that means a recession, but such adjustments are part and parcel of being a modern economy. Cultures as diverse as France and Turkey and Korea and Thailand and South Africa and Brazil have mostly managed such transitions ok. Certainly the “mighty” and “eternal” Chinese can pull it off.

Yet from the Chinese perspective – that is, from Chinese President Xi Jingping’s and the Chinese Communist Party’s perspectives – this is utterly unfathomable. Giving in to any of these demands wouldn’t simply be perceived in China as an unforgivable loss of face, but each and every one would shatter the Chinese economic model, the Chinese political system, and China as a country. Easy money is, after all, the only way the Party can keep up its end of the bargain with its citizenry: a better life than your recent ancestors in exchange for trust in and power to the Party. It does this by offering widescale employment and keeping the doors open at inefficient companies. For the wealthiest, the tradeoff is even more straightforward. Anytime you have a fire hydrant of money blasting, you can expect interests to become entrenched, corruption to spread. Even dictatorial, statist regimes need a political base.

The Party knows this is an unsustainable system and has been racing against the clock, trying to steer an un-steerable, careening behemoth. It aims to transition the Chinese economy from the wobbly foundations of a heavily subsidized economy that relies on other economies buying their goods to something rarified, something more like what the Americans have: a stable, self-sustaining market where goods are produced and consumed domestically. To do so, it needs to cut back overcapacity in a controlled fashion and boost consumption by the Chinese consumer. Until that goal is achieved, the Chinese remain dependent upon imported technology, energy and raw materials, and upon exported goods to more stable markets. China’s real problem is that this entire sequence requires a global system that is open and safe as guaranteed by the Americans.

So far the Party has failed in transitioning the country onto more stable macroeconomic footing, fearing at each step that it will lose one or more of its most important constituencies. Put another way, the Party finds itself unable to transform its economy away from dependence on the Americans. It finds itself at the end of its economy’s ability to take on debt.

Which brings us back to the Phase1 deal:

The trade talks have followed an almost disturbingly predictable pattern: The Americans make demands the Chinese cannot possibly meet. The Chinese promise to comply. A few weeks later Chinese actions make it clear they have no intention of complying. The Americans levy more trade restrictions. Repeat.

All the Phase1 deal is is a bribe to the Trump administration: a promise to purchase a few tens of billions of dollars of American agricultural products and to start implementing protections for intellectual property (some of which were agreed to twenty years ago), in exchange for a slight rollback of the tariffs already in place and a promise to delay a new planned batch for the time being.

The next step in the drama is obvious: sometime in late January or February, the Americans will again say the Chinese are not complying, and that new batch of pre-prepared tariffs will slam into place. And incidentally, geopolitics aside, I can’t think of a better international backdrop for a populist president than to run against China in an election year.

So it’s time to call it. There isn’t going to be a meaningful trade deal with the United States because agreeing to the Americans’ demands would be the end of the Party. The Americans can afford, if they must, to cut China out. It isn’t “easy,” but it’s more akin to a cold than leukemia. In fact, a combination of cheaper resources like natural gas, advanced technology, highly educated labor, and geopolitical disruption all make relocation to North America easier at the same time that East Asia’s costs – from labor to risk – are going up. Some companies and industries have already moved into the NAFTA marketplace and we’re still in the early stages of all these trends. If the world’s largest, most important consumer market, and the physical guarantor of all Chinese supply chains simply walks away, the Chinese are simply out of options.

More likely, it will be (far) worse than that for the Chinese. If the Americans, instead of merely cutting out the Chinese instead get aggressive, things could quickly cascade. Even with a naval deployment policy that’s one-quarter of what it is currently, the Americans could easily – almost lazily – interrupt any trade flow on the planet. In comparison, the Chinese cannot even guarantee their maritime safety within a thousand miles of their own coast, and most of their oil comes from five times that distance along a path littered with threats and rivals. And the size of those oil inflows? Edging up to 12 million barrels a day – greater than what American total imports were at the height of American energy dependency in the early mid-2000s.

China’s crash will be much like its rise. Big, bold, brash, loud, all-consuming, and, in hindsight, completely inevitable.

Peter Zeihan

going to have to agree with him on this there will be a market correction in china and it will be ugly what do you think?
 
China can't afford to do honest bussiness, and there is all too much willingness in the world (including USA) to give them a free pass. The runaway consumerism got our society addicted to cheap Chinese crap and dogma of postindustrial society makes it impossible to reverse the trend. Therby the Party is simply trying to weather the storm until Trump is gone, without too much of loss of face, because they are sure that whoever replaces him will more than happy to suck their collective cock, what they fear is four more years.
 
There are signs already that the Chinese economy is running out of steam; already, private company and people are defaulting on their debts to the Chinese government, and it’s just one of the many problems coming up for them.

my guess is, once the first sign of economic collapse arrive the CCP will start a war over one of their multiple territorial claims, you can get away with a lot in time of war after all....
 
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It's going to hurt but when you look at it from multiple POVs an American particularly if they are industry leaders has to know why they must handicap themselves with economic loss for China to benefit.
 
I wish there was a reasonable chance at a non-harsh solution to this, but there almost certainly isn't. The Communist Party is not likely to release its grip on power bloodlessly, and once their financial sins catch up with them, their economy will at least crash, and more likely, outright implode.

When that starts, I see one of 3 possible outcomes:

1. The Chinese start a war with Russia. Russia is in decline, and they have huge swaths of land North of China that are largely unoccupied with massive resource reserves. If things don't go nuclear, the Chinese will almost certainly win through sheer weight of numbers, they'll 'bleed off' a lot of the young hotheads who might try to overthrow the party, and have a unifying cultural focus. They'll also take large swathes of land with lots of valuable resources.
2. If they're too worried about things actually going nuclear, they'll hit one or a few SE Asian nations. Not South Korea, because that would be picking a war with the USA, but Vietnam, Laos, Myanmar, something like that. That could get a lot uglier, because those nations don't have the logistics/distance problems Russia does, nor do they have the need to keep military commitments elsewhere up. Further, each of those nations are aware China if unchecked could try to systematically take them all piecemeal, so you'd likely see at least a couple joining in the fight to push the Chinese out. Lots of bloodshed either way, but again, China would get the opportunity to focus things away from their internal strife.
3. The economy crashes without a distraction, and there will almost certainly be a minimum of an attempt at a political coup, and quite possibly an attempt at a violent coup or an outright civil war. Honestly, this is probably the best result for the rest of the world, but it could get very, very ugly for the Chinese themselves. If the central government fails, they could end up completely fractured. The fact that they're violently suppressing muslim minorities might come back to bite them in this as well; I'm sure the Pakistanis at a minimum would happily supply such a group with arms to get China to stop contesting them territorially.


Now, I'm not an expert on China, so I'd myself say this prediction is maybe 40-60% valid. That said, I'd say that the prediction that China's economic crash won't be peaceful is probably more like 90-99% accurate.

I don't think it will be anywhere near so mild, which is why I said the above, but at a minimum I'd expect Hong-Kong style uproar in major Chinese cities when the crash hits.
 
I wish there was a reasonable chance at a non-harsh solution to this, but there almost certainly isn't. The Communist Party is not likely to release its grip on power bloodlessly, and once their financial sins catch up with them, their economy will at least crash, and more likely, outright implode.

When that starts, I see one of 3 possible outcomes:

1. The Chinese start a war with Russia. Russia is in decline, and they have huge swaths of land North of China that are largely unoccupied with massive resource reserves. If things don't go nuclear, the Chinese will almost certainly win through sheer weight of numbers, they'll 'bleed off' a lot of the young hotheads who might try to overthrow the party, and have a unifying cultural focus. They'll also take large swathes of land with lots of valuable resources.
2. If they're too worried about things actually going nuclear, they'll hit one or a few SE Asian nations. Not South Korea, because that would be picking a war with the USA, but Vietnam, Laos, Myanmar, something like that. That could get a lot uglier, because those nations don't have the logistics/distance problems Russia does, nor do they have the need to keep military commitments elsewhere up. Further, each of those nations are aware China if unchecked could try to systematically take them all piecemeal, so you'd likely see at least a couple joining in the fight to push the Chinese out. Lots of bloodshed either way, but again, China would get the opportunity to focus things away from their internal strife.
3. The economy crashes without a distraction, and there will almost certainly be a minimum of an attempt at a political coup, and quite possibly an attempt at a violent coup or an outright civil war. Honestly, this is probably the best result for the rest of the world, but it could get very, very ugly for the Chinese themselves. If the central government fails, they could end up completely fractured. The fact that they're violently suppressing muslim minorities might come back to bite them in this as well; I'm sure the Pakistanis at a minimum would happily supply such a group with arms to get China to stop contesting them territorially.


Now, I'm not an expert on China, so I'd myself say this prediction is maybe 40-60% valid. That said, I'd say that the prediction that China's economic crash won't be peaceful is probably more like 90-99% accurate.

I don't think it will be anywhere near so mild, which is why I said the above, but at a minimum I'd expect Hong-Kong style uproar in major Chinese cities when the crash hits.
What China needs, is a trading partner to sell their goods to; not more resources. Invasion would only serve as a temporary distraction at best from their declining economy; and even then, there's always the possibility that they could lose, which would make the CCP look weak.
 
Trump getting into a trade war with China was idiotic (for the US), that said China is a state capitalist authoritarian hellhole run by a bunch of oligarchs so I don't feel too bad for them.
 
Trump getting into a trade war with China was idiotic (for the US), that said China is a state capitalist authoritarian hellhole run by a bunch of oligarchs so I don't feel too bad for them.
Oh good, you're back. Anyways, I don't see how getting into a trade war with China is a bad thing; they've been screwing us over for decades, so it's only fair we finally start fighting back. Care to enlighten me as to why you believe it is?
 
Its a communist authoritarian hell hole. Why is a trade war idiotic?
There is something to be said for Trump's...lacking management and organization of the trade war with China. One could argue the feasibility of whether coordination could be organized with other countries more indebted or less economically advantaged over China, but to my understanding some form of international cooperation attempts at the beginning of things would've been more conducive to putting some hard leverage on the Chinese, while the attempt thus far has been somewhat more...unilateral on the US part.
Getting some settlement to NAFTA/USMCA and coordinating anti-Chinese action with Canada and Mexico first, with the UK and EU, and with Japan and South Korea would make for a much stronger US position in trade talks--and there's at least a starting-point for such an international effort because Chinese IP shenanigans and industrial (and conventional) espionage actions have been widespread.

Hell, with how involved China has been in their Belt & Road and third-world expansionism, trying to get 'shithole countries' like Nigeria on-board with some degree of economic distancing from China would have been worthy of attempt. If China IS on a precarious footing economically, such would speed things along more so than the US alone taking the trade jab in the boxing match, and if they aren't then it'd make the jab a lot stronger so that there's greater incentive for the CCP to come to the table or risk the domestic implosion they're set on preventing.
 
two things on the trade war can be true at once
1 the deficit does not matter
2 china is awful and we should avoid trading with them

I am prolly a bit too Ben Shapiro here but I lean towards avoiding that from a moral position and making the economic decisions around that. if that means boosting competing economies to china fine. there are plenty of countries out there who can offer cheap labor. I do genuinely think they can tank the economic hit much less well than we can. nothing they build is built to last even a decade. I won't claim to have observed anything too important. but what I have seen is china is a paper tiger. they have maximized their immediate appearance of strength over their actual and long term strength.
 
Mexican labor is cheaper and more skilled and theres less environmental impact because theirs less money wasted on transportation costs.
Mexico is also 10 times smaller.

Unless Trump starts buying Indian he can't outright replace China.
 
China can't afford to do honest bussiness, and there is all too much willingness in the world (including USA) to give them a free pass. The runaway consumerism got our society addicted to cheap Chinese crap and dogma of postindustrial society makes it impossible to reverse the trend. Therby the Party is simply trying to weather the storm until Trump is gone, without too much of loss of face, because they are sure that whoever replaces him will more than happy to suck their collective cock, what they fear is four more years.
Would you mind explaining what you mean by ‘dogma of a postindustrial society’?
 

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