What If? Numenor finds itself in Berserk during the 100 years war?

[CarlManvers2019]

Numenor and its people are sent by Eru Illuvatar to the world of Berserk

They arrive before the War of The Elves and Sauron and are told of how the world beyond and its people are subject to a malevolent force and thus are wary of the Men they meet

The Godhand know they have this “Gift of Men” and an interloper is telling them to fuck off and that he actually likes humans and to varying degrees they have a hard time “reading” these guys who are now part of the story

Coming with the Numenoreans are the Istari who decide to occasionally thwack the Numenoreans on the head and thwack Berserk people on the head as well

The ISOT occurs during the time the Band of The Hawk is fighting in Midland & Tudor’s 100 Years War

Tudor may have tried invading and converting Numenor and the Numenoreans who went to the mainland were so horrified and disgusted they made each other think the Holy See was worshipping Morgoth due to stuff that guys like Mozgus do

How well do they deal with merging of both the Physical World and the Astral Planes?

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Where exactly is Numenor?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Where exactly is Numenor?

Near Elfheim or Vritanis

I don’t recall seeing a map of Berserk

Also, kinda thought, it’s possible much of the other continents or landmasses are in trouble or not....they may get along relatively well with their astral creatures and have long since adapted

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Near Elfheim or Vritanis

So either near Ireland or in the Mediterranean

Could you perhaps be a little more specific?

I don’t recall seeing a map of Berserk

It's Europe, the Borders are different but it's Europe. They're literally in Skellig right now. Thats a real place.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

So either near Ireland or in the Mediterranean

Could you perhaps be a little more specific?

It's Europe, the Borders are different but it's Europe. They're literally in Skellig right now. Thats a real place.

Wherever the closest place an island can be to Midland and Tudor then

Also, man I think I’ve heard a theory about how multiple characters and locations are an alternate universe version of real historical people

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Wherever the closest place an island can be to Midland and Tudor then

Well, would numenor fit in the Mediterranean sea? I cant remember how big it is. If I understand Midland is continentally central (sort of in a France-Germany position), so it'd be difficult to have it close to both otherwise.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Well, would numenor fit in the Mediterranean sea? I cant remember how big it is. If I understand Midland is continentally central (sort of in a France-Germany position), so it'd be difficult to have it close to both otherwise.

Númenor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

167,691 square miles, not sure how big that is

But maybe big enough to necessitate being further from everyone else, maybe

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Númenor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

167,691 square miles, not sure how big that is

But maybe big enough to necessitate being further from everyone else, maybe

Well regardless of who they're off the coast of, contact is going to be very slow, not only is there a language barrier, but there is no present basis for exchange and trade. Unlike with the Americas it's not just "free real estate" and look how long that took to really take off. Even if they're a stones throw from the coast, it will take a long time for any kind of coherent exchange of material or culture to begin. Contact will be scattered and small in scale for years.

Tudor may have tried invading and converting Numenor

I cant imagine Tudor would be interested in colonizing a foreign nation populous and well defended, just for it being there, particularly considering they're deadlocked in an incredibly costly war at the time.

the Numenoreans who went to the mainland were so horrified and disgusted they made each other think the Holy See was worshipping Morgoth due to stuff that guys like Mozgus do

First, what do you mean "stuff that guys like Mozgus do"? Mozgus was very unusual, and was being used to combat a very unusual problem in a very unusual time. We have no evidence that he was bulldozing his way across the countryside for the last ten years or anything.

Second, it's not like some obscure judge, somewhere, with a reputation for being draconian, says much to the Numenorians. Remember that even nobles and clergy working in the same region had no idea what Mozgus was doing and it was not standard practice. They just knew Mozgus was dangerous but could be relied upon.

Third, I would put good money on Mozgus being able to engage in effective apologetics about his methodology that would be difficult to argue against for anyone short of an Istari. He doesn't hurt people out of sadism, he's intelligent and has every reason to think he's doing the right thing and it would take a lot of evidence that he couldn't dismiss as invention or fantasy to lead him otherwise.


Any morally outraged outworlders would probably be far more concerned with the degeneracy of some of the nobles (such as a high lord of Tudor having a harem of boy children) or the fact that there is a literal demon empire on the doorstep.

But like I said last time, news travels slowly.



As for the post eclipse period, at the very least I can see Numenor taking a stronger interest in the metaphysical situation than the political one. That is the sort of situation that would cause a sudden interaction. Numenor would want to know what was going on in the mainland, and might send expeditions or envoys to the far corners when otherwise they would be content to remain on their own. It is entirely possible that Numenor might counterattack Kushan once the depth of the situation was made clear to them. Istari are natural meddlers, and I cant imagine they wouldn't try to prompt war between Numenor and Kushan. I suspect an Istari would present themselves before the pope at some point, and presumably others would seek out the kings and lords of the continent. Odds are one would seek out Danann as well.


Frankly, Saruman may be a detriment here despite the fact that he'd be a great asset for counseling the kings of Europe and Numenor, and would likely be a match at least for Ganishka, because I'd put decent odds on Void being able to argue him into the same box that Sauron did.



This is a rare "ISOT" style scenario where I can see named characters actually interacting, as Istari would actually seek out people with connections to the events transpiring, and have the metaphysical means to investigate.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

TBH I keep thinking the worst examples like those of Mozgus were regular behavior, I mean they did witch or heretic burnings in Vritanis, even if it was pretty obvious that Serpico’s mom was just horribly senile and sick

Then again it’s probably because we’re more focused on Guts’ story than everyday life in the berserk european continent

That Istari meeting with the Pontiff may somewhat mess with part of the Godhands’ plans/manipulations since he’s meant to have his awakening of faith for Griffith

Void would probably be slightly surprised about this otherworldly spirit around, I guess

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

TBH I keep thinking the worst examples like those of Mozgus were regular behavior, I mean they did witch or heretic burnings in Vritanis, even if it was pretty obvious that Serpico’s mom was just horribly senile and sick

The difference between a witch hunt in real life and a witch hunt in Berserk is that witches are real, and they're actually committing mass murder. We see the kind of unbelievably heinous shit the cults get up to, which would make people react with draconian measures and sweep up innocents along with the guilty, because they're often difficult to distinguish. Thats why Mozgus' attitude is basically "I know I'll make mistakes and I just have to accept that". This conflict is less comparable to real world religious persecution and more comparable to criminal justice or even putting down rebellions.

And after all, the witch burnings in Vritanis were like ten years ago, and we don't know the full story there.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

The difference between a witch hunt in real life and a witch hunt in Berserk is that witches are real, and they're actually committing mass murder. We see the kind of unbelievably heinous shit the cults get up to, which would make people react with draconian measures and sweep up innocents along with the guilty, because they're often difficult to distinguish. Thats why Mozgus' attitude is basically "I know I'll make mistakes and I just have to accept that". This conflict is less comparable to real world religious persecution and more comparable to criminal justice or even putting down rebellions.

And after all, the witch burnings in Vritanis were like ten years ago, and we don't know the full story there.

They encounter the cults, but probably don’t meet the actual supernatural monsters often, I bet

Mostly because I think as that Vargas dude from the start, noted that even after all his research into the occult, he didn’t find anything on Behelits

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

They encounter the cults, but probably don’t meet the actual supernatural monsters often, I bet

Mostly because I think as that Vargas dude from the start, noted that even after all his research into the occult, he didn’t find anything on Behelits

Yes 99% of the time it's probably just mortal assholes having a murder-orgy.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Yes 99% of the time it's probably just mortal assholes having a murder-orgy.

Makes me wonder though, given the number of apostles shown to exist, where do they get to find so many people to torture, murder and eat on a daily basis when I doubt a medieval world could sustain that many numbers

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Makes me wonder though, given the number of apostles shown to exist, where do they get to find so many people to torture, murder and eat on a daily basis when I doubt a medieval world could sustain that many numbers

How many apostles do you suppose to exist?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

How many apostles do you suppose to exist?

500,000? I was just sure there were a LOT of em in the Eclipse

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

500,000? I was just sure there were a LOT of em in the Eclipse

Well, I dont recall seeing that many, I cant recall any one shot where we see more than 100.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Well, I dont recall seeing that many, I cant recall any one shot where we see more than 100.

Honestly, I couldn’t help but think the Apostles were essentially part of the “environment” of that dimension of heads

Latest chapter made me think of a forest/jungle of tentacles

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Honestly, I couldn’t help but think the Apostles were essentially part of the “environment” of that dimension of heads

Latest chapter made me think of a forest/jungle of tentacles

Right well, I dont think that the environments are made of apostles, and as we saw with the sea god and Tree-Ganishka there are individual monsters with an high length and number of tentacle "limbs".

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Right well, I dont think that the environments are made of apostles, and as we saw with the sea god and Tree-Ganishka there are individual monsters with an high length and number of tentacle "limbs".

I didn’t exactly mean that, but to me it seemed there were so many that they were all naturally a part of that dimension of screaming heads

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

I didn’t exactly mean that, but to me it seemed there were so many that they were all naturally a part of that dimension of screaming heads

Well like I said, unless I'm mis-remembering we really don't see all that many.