Nord Stream 1 and 2 Attacked

Grimalkin

Well-known member
That right there. You're now in the same category as Daesh and Marcos Sr. In my book. I wish you all the misfortune and wroth possible to suffer. Fucking Communist Bandit!
But I'm not a communist though? Like I don't really care about the rest of the crude comparisons you made there, but the notion that I'd ever be naive enough to be a follower of Marx and his ilk is really quite insulting. I just take a realistic view when it comes to international politics, and have some basic knowledge of what I'm talking about.

The greatest U.S president in the 21st century was Trump, and in the 20th century it was Nixon.

The reason why I reference historical events and make comparisons to them is largely because I know enough to do so, whereas the only source for your rhetoric is the latest article of propaganda that popped into your feed.
Cool story bro. But... apples to oranges. For one Ukraine is a country over an order of magnitude larger than Georgia, both in size and population, so there are bound to be differences, which is why Russia still didn't "obviously win" like you put it, even though in Georgia it didn't take years, not a week even.
Different countries, different solutions but the same overarching motivation. It's just oranges of a different size rather than two different fruit, a colour revolution backed by western NGO's followed by a diplomatic distancing from Russia and it courting NATO. Which then inevitably concludes with an invasion from Russia leaving a fractured and balkanized state in its wake.

It's literally just a case of history repeating itself in an almost identical fashion, just on a bigger scale. The Russians want the same result but they just had to resort to different methods to get it.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Different countries, different solutions but the same overarching motivation. It's just oranges of a different size rather than two different fruit, a colour revolution backed by western NGO's followed by a diplomatic distancing from Russia and it courting NATO. Which then inevitably concludes with an invasion from Russia leaving a fractured and balkanized state in its wake.

It's literally just a case of history repeating itself in an almost identical fashion, just on a bigger scale. The Russians want the same result but they just had to resort to different methods to get it.
No, Russia's desired result is Belarus Redux in every ex-Soviet/WP state ideally. However, "fractured and balkanized state" is a temporary intermediate step they are willing to live with, awaiting opportunities to make further steps towards the desired state.
Also Russia's gripe with Ukraine was that it was courting EU, not NATO, stop repeating Kremlin propaganda for anti-western and leftard NPCs meant to make them go "muh evil militarism, America bad, NATO expansion bad!"
In case of Ukraine, well, they have reached the limits of their military capability to actually force the plans into reality before reaching the goals.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
But the Ukrainian people did choose their government, either by actively participating in the revolution or by passively participating in the revolution by not stopping it. I don't believe in this age-old obfuscation of guilt where we categorise people as innocent just because they didn't personally choose their own government, or because they didn't personally participate in atrocities.

This is like claiming that the passengers in a hijacked airplane are complicit in the hijacking.


If a society commits a crime or commits suicide, then all the members of that society are responsible to varying degrees, whether it's a dictatorship, or a democracy, or even a monarchy.

No, because there is no such thing as "a society" doing any such thing. Only actual people.
 

Grimalkin

Well-known member
This is like claiming that the passengers in a hijacked airplane are complicit in the hijacking.
Yes they are, there are of course degrees of guilt but they do share in the guilt by virtue of their inaction, if woman is raped on a train and every single rider on that train stands by and does nothing to help then they're all fucking complicit to one degree or another.

Does interfering pose a physical risk of injury or death? Of course it does but that does not excuse their inaction, forsaking virtue and morality for the sake of your own momentary self-interest is not acceptable behaviour and the people who engage in it should be named and shamed. The normalisation of moral cowardice should be actively fought against, and people who engage in it or excuse it should either be reprimanded or ostracized.
No, because there is no such thing as "a society" doing any such thing. Only actual people.
This exact mindset is the reason why our societies are going to hell in a handbasket, this notion that you can just walk on by and ignore the world around you, washing your hands of any responsibility just because you're not actively committing the crime or the coup.

In a way the people who stood by and did nothing as their government was overthrown are even more reprehensible than the colour revolutionaries, because the latter group at the very least had the will to take action to forward their misguided belief whereas the former just sat by and watched. Only a small minority of people had the moral fortitude to stand up to it whereas the majority remained either remained silent or supported the new regime.

All of us are guilty of this to one degree or another, but just because we understand the motivation does not mean that we should not condemn others as well as ourselves for succumbing to it when we should have stood up.
No, Russia's desired result is Belarus Redux in every ex-Soviet/WP state ideally. However, "fractured and balkanized state" is a temporary intermediate step they are willing to live with, awaiting opportunities to make further steps towards the desired state.
Also Russia's gripe with Ukraine was that it was courting EU, not NATO, stop repeating Kremlin propaganda for anti-western and leftard NPCs meant to make them go "muh evil militarism, America bad, NATO expansion bad!"
In case of Ukraine, well, they have reached the limits of their military capability to actually force the plans into reality before reaching the goals.
You're playing with semantics here, when I spoke of their desired result I did not mean the ideal result of their utopian dreams, but rather obviously the desired result that aligned with the political reality of the situation.

And the only reason you keep repeating bullshit buzzwords like kremlin propaganda or leftard even when they're obviously not appropriate is because as I expounded earlier in this post, you're one of those people who thinks that they can just wash their hands of responsibility by closing their eyes and covering their ears. Instead of looking in the mirror at your own faults and your own groups faults you incessantly look for fault in others, burying your head in the sand the moment you might hear or see something that suggests that your group might be on the same moral level as those you see as your enemies.

Nor am I some sort of Russian apologist, the fact of the matter is that I'm criticizing and judging you and your views specifically, because they're naive and lacking in self-awareness. If you were a Russian or Russo-Ukrainian partisan then I'd be criticizing you and your government for ever letting this situation get so bad in the first place, because the inattentiveness and indolence of the Russians played a big part in creating this situation in the first place.

The Russian people and their government should have been much less heavy handed in their foreign policy when it came to their neighbours and much more proactive in mending their relations with the other post-soviet states and establishing friendly relations by whatever means necessary, because promise or no promise they are as responsible for the current expansion of NATO as the Americans are.

Now, when I say that everyone is guilty to some degree I am of course including myself, so in the spirit of not being a hypocrite I will admit that I haven't sufficiently detailed out my criticism of Russia in the same way that I have with Ukraine. Moreover I have been far too cavalier and nihilistic in my judgement of Ukraine, I still think I was right to judge them harshly but saying that I didn't care was going too far. And in closing I have been going far too easy on the Israelis due to my hatred of the Palestinians, since I feel they were neglectful and indolent as well, these half-assed ceasefires were a goddamn mistake and all of this would've been solved a long time ago if they'd just bitten the bullet and forcibly integrated the Palestinians piece by piece.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
You're playing with semantics here, when I spoke of their desired result I did not mean the ideal result of their utopian dreams, but rather obviously the desired result that aligned with the political reality of the situation.
There is a difference between desired result and a temporary step, its not semantics.
And the only reason you keep repeating bullshit buzzwords like kremlin propaganda or leftard even when they're obviously not appropriate is because as I expounded earlier in this post, you're one of those people who thinks that they can just wash their hands of responsibility by closing their eyes and covering their ears. Instead of looking in the mirror at your own faults and your own groups faults you incessantly look for fault in others, burying your head in the sand the moment you might hear or see something that suggests that your group might be on the same moral level as those you see as your enemies.
Kremlin propaganda is a real thing, if you think its not, i have a bridge in Moscow to sell you.
And your attempt replication of SJW guiltmongering has been noted and will not be forgotten.
Who the fuck do you think you are to tell me what i should feel responsible for?
Get bent, useful idiot.
I'm not burying my head in the sand, i want to bury my enemies head in the sand, and i categorically refuse to feel guilty or ashamed of it, that's the difference you are failing to notice, take this "contrarian" entry level shit to someone who thinks its cool.

Nor am I some sort of Russian apologist, the fact of the matter is that I'm criticizing and judging you and your views specifically, because they're naive and lacking in self-awareness. If you were a Russian or Russo-Ukrainian partisan then I'd be criticizing you and your government for ever letting this situation get so bad in the first place, because the inattentiveness and indolence of the Russians played a big part in creating this situation in the first place.
You are judging me? Oh my...
Fine, let's play that game, i'll judge you back, and i judge you to be a tool. Probably a garden tool of some kind. Here, that's what you were looking for?
The Russian people and their government should have been much less heavy handed in their foreign policy when it came to their neighbours and much more proactive in mending their relations with the other post-soviet states and establishing friendly relations by whatever means necessary, because promise or no promise they are as responsible for the current expansion of NATO as the Americans are.

Now, when I say that everyone is guilty to some degree I am of course including myself, so in the spirit of not being a hypocrite I will admit that I haven't sufficiently detailed out my criticism of Russia in the same way that I have with Ukraine. Moreover I have been far too cavalier and nihilistic in my judgement of Ukraine, I still think I was right to judge them harshly but saying that I didn't care was going too far. And in closing I have been going far too easy on the Israelis due to my hatred of the Palestinians, since I feel they were neglectful and indolent as well, these half-assed ceasefires were a goddamn mistake and all of this would've been solved a long time ago if they'd just bitten the bullet and forcibly integrated the Palestinians piece by piece.
Cool, but that's an attempt at mindless kind of "balancing". In real world every situation is unique, what you're trying to do here is just ensuring that you will always be contrarian and moderately wrong. And what's the use of that? If you cross all the answers on a test you will also cross all the good answers, but still, that doesn't mean you passed the test, that just means you're screwing around.
And that's what you are doing here. Screwing around. All noise, no signal.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Most normal people have enough to deal with in their own lives. They can't be expected to do anything about international politics and suchlike.
 

Grimalkin

Well-known member
There is a difference between desired result and a temporary step, its not semantics.

Kremlin propaganda is a real thing, if you think its not, i have a bridge in Moscow to sell you.
And your attempt replication of SJW guiltmongering has been noted and will not be forgotten.
Who the fuck do you think you are to tell me what i should feel responsible for?
Get bent, useful idiot.
I'm not burying my head in the sand, i want to bury my enemies head in the sand, and i categorically refuse to feel guilty or ashamed of it, that's the difference you are failing to notice, take this "contrarian" entry level shit to someone who thinks its cool.
You are the useful idiot, and calling everything you don't want to believe Kremlin propaganda is about as asinine as calling everything you disagree with racist, and your refusal to feel shame for guilt for your own flaws is your greatest weakness. We are all responsible for one another to one degree or another, and your reflexive refusal to take responsibility for yourself is something you hold in common with the communists you so despise.

This is not my contrariness speaking here, but the purest essence of christianity, we are all of us sinners and all of us guilty of not living up to our potential. The fact that some of us willingly blind themselves to the truth does not absolve them, nor does it absolve you.

I said before on this forum that I'm an atheist but I do periodically read through the Bible and the Torah and sometimes even the Quran to try and fix that, but it's never actually stuck before and I had sort of given up on the idea that I'd ever find God but in these recent days I feel that I'm reverting to Christianity and not the milquetoast type that's preached today in modernist churches either.
Cool, but that's an attempt at mindless kind of "balancing". In real world every situation is unique, what you're trying to do here is just ensuring that you will always be contrarian and moderately wrong. And what's the use of that? If you cross all the answers on a test you will also cross all the good answers, but still, that doesn't mean you passed the test, that just means you're screwing around.
And that's what you are doing here. Screwing around. All noise, no signal.
No it's just a critique of myself, because judging others without judging myself is counterproductive. I said that I focused too much on finding fault in Ukraine and not enough on Russia, and that I focused too much on finding fault in Palestine and not enough on Israel. And I meant every single fucking word of it, because my dialogue with you is not solely for the purpose of making you a better person but also to make myself a better a person.

I am by nature adversarial and I reflexively critique people when I feel that they're lying to themselves and by extension others, which can at times lead to me excessively critiquing one side rather than the other depending on whichever partisan I'm debating at the time. That along with my excessive amount of nihilism is my greatest flaw, it's not the fact that I'm adversarial because going along with the lies of others is counterproductive both to them and myself.

You should always judge others and you should always judge yourself as well, moreover you should welcome the judgement of others as to rectify your own blindness. That is the difference between those of us who are willing to refine themselves and those of you who are willing to rot in the swamp of your own lies.
Most normal people have enough to deal with in their own lives. They can't be expected to do anything about international politics and suchlike.
That is mere sloth and indolence, a mere excuse rather than a justification, most normal people have some measure of free time to educate themselves. And the best way to educate yourself is to test your beliefs against the beliefs that are opposite to yours, to cut out the cancer that's growing in you and then confront the cancer growing in others.

The excuse that people cannot educate themselves may have held weight in the middle ages but not now. If you don't resist you are guilty, and if you can't actively resist then you should still passively resist by leaving.


When I first became an atheist I indulged myself in watching other atheists debate against strawmen and those who were faithful but not their intellectual equals, then I turned my scepticism on everything else that I was raised to believe in, indulging in my own sense of superiority over the plebs that were simply following the garden path. But my scepticism was still a greater force than my own narcissistic belief in myself and so it was eventually turned against the atheistic beliefs I had indulged in, and the presumption that a society could live without the belief in God.

This eventually led me down the path of nihilism because while I realized that religious belief was a far more potent unifier than any of these new philosophies, I myself could not find God regardless of where I looked, but in recent days that has begun to change. I find myself for the first time in my life experiencing the divine, because I have taken the next step and started to turn my doubt inward and ask myself how I could be better.

No more indulging in nihilism or murderous revolutionary fantasy, I've already made a start in judging myself in the cold light of day the same way that I judge others.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
You are the useful idiot, and calling everything you don't want to believe Kremlin propaganda is about as asinine as calling everything you disagree with racist, and your refusal to feel shame for guilt for your own flaws is your greatest weakness. We are all responsible for one another to one degree or another, and your reflexive refusal to take responsibility for yourself is something you hold in common with the communists you so despise.
I'm not calling everything Kremlin propaganda, stop fucking clowning, consider the thread, i'm calling shilling for Kremlin's interests Kremlin propaganda.
And nope, failing to bow to foreign policy pet peeves of leftists, pacifists and other navel gazing idiots is not a flaw, it's paying attention to them that is a flaw.
This is not my contrariness speaking here, but the purest essence of christianity, we are all of us sinners and all of us guilty of not living up to our potential. The fact that some of us willingly blind themselves to the truth does not absolve them, nor does it absolve you.

I said before on this forum that I'm an atheist but I do periodically read through the Bible and the Torah and sometimes even the Quran to try and fix that, but it's never actually stuck before and I had sort of given up on the idea that I'd ever find God but in these recent days I feel that I'm reverting to Christianity and not the milquetoast type that's preached today in modernist churches either.
It's fucking hilarious that not only you are trying to pull the whole meme where an atheists tells a Christian how to do his religion (who made you the pope or whatever), but in this case your narcissistic ass (lol you try to fix religions) has tried it with another non-Christian.
No it's just a critique of myself, because judging others without judging myself is counterproductive. I said that I focused too much on finding fault in Ukraine and not enough on Russia, and that I focused too much on finding fault in Palestine and not enough on Israel. And I meant every single fucking word of it, because my dialogue with you is not solely for the purpose of making you a better person but also to make myself a better a person.
Well here's something for you to better yourself with.
International conflicts are not a fucking village dispute about someone stealing a cow.
In many cases the different parties involved hold different definitions on who is a someone, what is stealing, what is ownership, and what is a cow, proverbially of course.
Trying to frame it in the way of it being simply someone's fault is like trying to paint the Mona Lisa just with a piece of chalk. No matter how talented you might be, you are going to get a kinda sorta similar monochrome approximation at best.
I am by nature adversarial and I reflexively critique people when I feel that they're lying to themselves and by extension others, which can at times lead to me excessively critiquing one side rather than the other depending on whichever partisan I'm debating at the time. That along with my excessive amount of nihilism is my greatest flaw, it's not the fact that I'm adversarial because going along with the lies of others is counterproductive both to them and myself.

You should always judge others and you should always judge yourself as well, moreover you should welcome the judgement of others as to rectify your own blindness. That is the difference between those of us who are willing to refine themselves and those of you who are willing to rot in the swamp of your own lies.

That is mere sloth and indolence, a mere excuse rather than a justification, most normal people have some measure of free time to educate themselves. And the best way to educate yourself is to test your beliefs against the beliefs that are opposite to yours, to cut out the cancer that's growing in you and then confront the cancer growing in others.

The excuse that people cannot educate themselves may have held weight in the middle ages but not now. If you don't resist you are guilty, and if you can't actively resist then you should still passively resist by leaving.


When I first became an atheist I indulged myself in watching other atheists debate against strawmen and those who were faithful but not their intellectual equals, then I turned my scepticism on everything else that I was raised to believe in, indulging in my own sense of superiority over the plebs that were simply following the garden path. But my scepticism was still a greater force than my own narcissistic belief in myself and so it was eventually turned against the atheistic beliefs I had indulged in, and the presumption that a society could live without the belief in God.

This eventually led me down the path of nihilism because while I realized that religious belief was a far more potent unifier than any of these new philosophies, I myself could not find God regardless of where I looked, but in recent days that has begun to change. I find myself for the first time in my life experiencing the divine, because I have taken the next step and started to turn my doubt inward and ask myself how I could be better.

No more indulging in nihilism or murderous revolutionary fantasy, I've already made a start in judging myself in the cold light of day the same way that I judge others.
Excuse me, but is this the right thread for essays on amateur philosophy, self improvement theory and humblebragging?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top