Religion Neuroscience, the soul, God and materialism

[Deleted member 88]

So this subject gets some attention but it’s broader implications and affects are not as widely discussed as they should be.

Neuroscience is the study of the brain-it’s components, their interactions, and how that effects human thinking, behavior, and responses.

The implications for Neuroscience and Religion are in my humble layman’s opinion extraordinary.

Many materialists-are quite eager to see religious precepts entirely demolished. And neuroscience, offers the opportunity to discredit the very idea of the soul separate from the neurons firing off electrical signals in the brain.

However the study of consciousness has not necessarily been a swing in their favor, but debate is still ongoing. And new developments have large implications here.

So, for all our philosophers, theologians, and so on-can they give their thoughts on neurology? And it’s consequences for religion, philosophy and so on.

Is Julien Musolino correct when he says that neuroscience has discredited the idea of the soul? Or does neuroscience serve to discredit this sort of reductionist materialism?

Thoughts? Reflections? Ruminations?

 

[Abhorsen]

Oof, I haven't followed this, but it seems really big. I honestly have no idea.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Depends really some would say evolution discredits God/soul. It really doesn't though as there's no actual reason. That evolution couldn't be God's programming so tospeak working. I'd say the same line of thought could be applied to the signals. Ie. Said signals are simply a mechanism God built in. That connects and communicates the souls wishes to the pshyical body. I say this as someone who doesn't believe in souls.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Depends really some would say evolution discredits God/soul. It really doesn't though as there's no actual reason. That evolution couldn't be God's programming so tospeak working. I'd say the same line of thought could be applied to the signals. Ie. Said signals are simply a mechanism God built in. That connects and communicates the souls wishes to the pshyical body. I say this as someone who doesn't believe in souls.

I never particularly liked this explanation. As it just perpetuates the god of the gaps argument.

My general line of thought-is that religious phenomena and consciousness can be observed, or their expressions can be-in the brain.

That does not mean souls do not exist or that religion thus is ontologically untrue.

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

I never particularly liked this explanation. As it just perpetuates the god of the gaps argument.

Same for science in the gaps too though. People put in place an explanation that "fits" there particular world view.

 

[Deleted member 88]

I do think however neuroscience is an important subject to be aware of.

Because now, and in the future-I suspect it will be the primary basis of metaphysical materialism and the arguments therein. Fundamentally that religion, belief in God, or the soul are products of neurons firing off due to this or that evolutionary adaptation. And that consciousness is simply an emergent property of matter.

 

[Abhorsen]

Same for science in the gaps too though. People put in place an explanation that "fits" there particular world view.

Science in the gaps really isn't a good attack. The problem with the God of the Gaps is that these gaps of unknowns keep being filled with known science. If they were filled with a God of the Gaps prior to the science being known, the religion that claimed 'God had a role in these gaps' has some of its claims defeated and potentially disproven, like what happened with the heliocentric solar sytem overturning the church backed geocentric one.

A Science of gaps doesn't have this problem, as science is quite fine having prior hypotheses being replaced with better ones. That's part of the method of scientific inquiry, which allows an ever closer model to reality to form.

But as for the nuero stuff, I doubt it will have much of an effect on belief in god. People believe stuff that much more credulous than a soul being part of the brain, even if science disproves it.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Science in the gaps really isn't a good attack. The problem with the God of the Gaps is that these gaps of unknowns keep being filled with known science. If they were filled with a God of the Gaps prior to the science being known, the religion that claimed 'God had a role in these gaps' has some of its claims defeated and potentially disproven, like what happened with the heliocentric solar sytem overturning the church backed geocentric one.

A Science of gaps doesn't have this problem, as science is quite fine having prior hypotheses being replaced with better ones. That's part of the method of scientific inquiry, which allows an ever closer model to reality to form.

But as for the nuero stuff, I doubt it will have much of an effect on belief in god. People believe stuff that much more credulous than a soul being part of the brain, even if science disproves it.

You mean separate from the brain?

I suppose one could simply reject the philosophical underpinnings of science itself. But that's not very helpful.

The soul though is an inherently metaphysical concept, and you can't prove something isn't there. You can in theory get to the point where just about everything regarding human consciousness and thought is explained via physical processes-but you can't find an empty chamber somewhere in people's beings and find out "No soul"!.

At that point-it may as well be a discredited belief, but it couldn't be conclusively proven.

 

[Scottty]

When you are dealing with dogmatic materialists, they often claim that "science has proven" things which they are really presupposing before they even begin the science. They beg the questions.
No, they have not explained all of human consciousness in terms of neurons. Nor will they.
But they will be happy to pretend to.

 

[Deleted member]

The material world is just a dim reflection of what’s happening in the spiritual world. Neuroscience frequently fails in falsification and is more of a buzzword than a legitimate path of inquiry. It seems that every day a new contradictory theory is proposed and they all do very little. I actually think Quantum Mechanics and physics in general conversely sit on the cusp of proving the existence of God (though they may remain there forever), not like it matters much: I don’t believe science can provide adequate explanations for all of existence in any case. I know I have a consciousness as a matter of objective fact, so if neuroscience “proves” otherwise, that would just invalidate neuroscience.

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

Science in the gaps really isn't a good attack. The problem with the God of the Gaps is that these gaps of unknowns keep being filled with known science. If they were filled with a God of the Gaps prior to the science being known, the religion that claimed 'God had a role in these gaps' has some of its claims defeated and potentially disproven, like what happened with the heliocentric solar sytem overturning the church backed geocentric one.

A Science of gaps doesn't have this problem, as science is quite fine having prior hypotheses being replaced with better ones. That's part of the method of scientific inquiry, which allows an ever closer model to reality to form.

But as for the nuero stuff, I doubt it will have much of an effect on belief in god. People believe stuff that much more credulous than a soul being part of the brain, even if science disproves it.

The issue is not that you place a prior hypothesis with a better one, is that you make one in the first place with no evidence and claim its a "reasonable" explanation because it fits in with a "mundane" world view. Saying you will get rid of it when you have better evidence does not make something made up a good explanation while having lack of evidence.

Neruscience is fraught with this, mainly because of the way information dissemination is handled by the scientific community at this point. As Peer review is slow to come down the line and information can be widely spread before any real examination of the hypothesis can be made. Not too mention how news organizations treat any studies done that they like the results of.

 

[Abhorsen]

The issue is not that you place a prior hypothesis with a better one, is that you make one in the first place with no evidence and claim its a "reasonable" explanation because it fits in with a "mundane" world view. Saying you will get rid of it when you have better evidence does not make something made up a good explanation while having lack of evidence.

Neruscience is fraught with this, mainly because of the way information dissemination is handled by the scientific community at this point. As Peer review is slow to come down the line and information can be widely spread before any real examination of the hypothesis can be made. Not too mention how news organizations treat any studies done that they like the results of.

There's nothing wrong with educated guessing about what might cause X. This is how the scientific process works. You guess a solution, then you test to see if it works. The issue with God of the Gaps is that it leads to a diminishing God.

 

[King Krávoka]

Hey,

Lord Invictus,

great topic!

In my opinion,

the concept that consciousness is necessarily immaterial is not even theological.

As most religions

(at least in the west,

I don't know much about eastern beliefs)

cared more about moral philosophy than metaphysics.

Making a big deal out of dualism was mainly a thing of occultists or natural philosophers.

However, even in medieval times it became accepted that there were naturalistic links between bodily health and mental wellbeing,

as seen with the prevalence of humorism.

So,

this whole debate is a strawman and a shitty gotcha.

Although,

I imagine that a lot of theists have made

"YOU DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS!"

into a centerpoint of their faith.

It's not rare for a disorganized religion,

or someone who has deliberately cut themself off of organized religion,

to end up caring more about the supernatural than the real.

So I imagine that it's a real threat to the faith of people who weren't actually using that faith for anything worthwhile.

Also,

stop thinking that a paragraph is two sentences or less,

it's an eyesore.

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

Well as far as science not being able to properly analyze "invisible" forces we have known for a long time they exist and we are as of yet unable to properly study them. Gravity and Dark Matter for example. So its very likely they are invisible to us of yet forces interacting on the human body, if only as far as it works on all forms of matter.