Mistakes in Lord of the Rings movies

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Introduction

This post will cover mistakes in the Lord of the Rings movies, as they pertain to the military tactics and technology. The greater mythological / worldbuilding mistakes (of which there are many) will not be covered.

General

Nobody in Lord of the Rings books used plate armor – not even the dwarves. n the movie, King Theoden, Gondorians and Uruk Hai are all shown to use it.

Arrows could only penetrate plate armor if plate was not of high quality (a frequent occurence) and arrow was fired directly at the plate. Indirect fire could still cause casualties through lucky hits, but main effect of longbows at the battle of Agincourt was that French men-at-arms and knights were dead tired (pun intended) once they reached English lines; even so, English men-at-arms in the centre were hard pressed until longbowmen took out maces and joined the close-quarters head-bashing party. This move was quite effective as they were lightly armored, so mud did not have much effect on them, and were not tired (unlike deciptions in some media, and statements such as knight needing crane to get him on the horse, people in full plate armor were quite mobile; plate armor weighted about as much as equipment of a modern soldier, but weight was far better distributed).

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Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
For Grond being pulled to the gate, perhaps it would have made more sense if orcs - under the cover of shields (or a movable fortification) - went up to the gate and dug in a pulley system, so the battering ram could be towed up to the walls without having the pack animals approach the wall and be easily shot and killed. So the pack animals would begin moving away from the wall while the battering ram is pulled forward.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
One thing I might mention is how incredibly identical everybody's kit is. It's especially apparent in the picture of the elves you have at the top where all of them have the same armor and swords.

IRL using blacksmith level tech, you'd never get that. Even trying to make them all similarly, the various suits of armor and swords would be significantly different because they're all artisanally made and the individual blacksmiths would find it impossible to perfectly match. Moreover, the individuals would not want their armor to perfectly match, heraldry was often added (especially to helmets) f'rex, because it made them easier to tell who was who when fully armored.

However, making each armor somewhat different is more difficult with modern mass production technology, and it would make the movie more expensive to alternately give the mooks all different gear or alter the CG model to show it. Much easier to use the clone tool to copy-paste 500 of the same elf.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
One thing I might mention is how incredibly identical everybody's kit is. It's especially apparent in the picture of the elves you have at the top where all of them have the same armor and swords.

IRL using blacksmith level tech, you'd never get that. Even trying to make them all similarly, the various suits of armor and swords would be significantly different because they're all artisanally made and the individual blacksmiths would find it impossible to perfectly match. Moreover, the individuals would not want their armor to perfectly match, heraldry was often added (especially to helmets) f'rex, because it made them easier to tell who was who when fully armored.

However, making each armor somewhat different is more difficult with modern mass production technology, and it would make the movie more expensive to alternately give the mooks all different gear or alter the CG model to show it. Much easier to use the clone tool to copy-paste 500 of the same elf.

Eh... yes and no. Munitions plate was a thing, and I can definitely buy the idea of Gondor, Mordor and Isengard at least using such (note: nobody used plate in the books). But Rohan at least should definitely see more variation in terms of armour and equipment.

But yes, the lack of distinguishing markings is jarring to say the least. Even fully standardized military would have used such, and helmets were painted with heraldry.

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ATP

Well-known member
Introduction

This post will cover mistakes in the Lord of the Rings movies, as they pertain to the military tactics and technology. The greater mythological / worldbuilding mistakes (of which there are many) will not be covered.

General

Nobody in Lord of the Rings books used plate armor – not even the dwarves. n the movie, King Theoden, Gondorians and Uruk Hai are all shown to use it.

Arrows could only penetrate plate armor if plate was not of high quality (a frequent occurence) and arrow was fired directly at the plate. Indirect fire could still cause casualties through lucky hits, but main effect of longbows at the battle of Agincourt was that French men-at-arms and knights were dead tired (pun intended) once they reached English lines; even so, English men-at-arms in the centre were hard pressed until longbowmen took out maces and joined the close-quarters head-bashing party. This move was quite effective as they were lightly armored, so mud did not have much effect on them, and were not tired (unlike deciptions in some media, and statements such as knight needing crane to get him on the horse, people in full plate armor were quite mobile; plate armor weighted about as much as equipment of a modern soldier, but weight was far better distributed).

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And even if arrow penetrated plate,it could not kill owner,only deliver small injure.During one of english cyvil wars/before 1415/ leader of rebels died from arrow to the face,but if it hit in other place he would live and fight.

Main mistake for me - making Uruk-hai supersoldiers capable of fighting humans one to one and winning.In book they were only superorcs.
When they fought Eomer,there were 80+x uruks and 100 mordor orcs against 120 rohirrim - and orcs get wiped out,and Rohirrims lost only 15KIA.
When i tried to use rules from LOTR gametop ,/on paper,not frigurines/ loses was always greater,and orcs could win.
And making oliphants on steroid.They were big,but not like brontosaurus or something.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Eh... yes and no. Munitions plate was a thing, and I can definitely buy the idea of Gondor, Mordor and Isengard at least using such (note: nobody used plate in the books). But Rohan at least should definitely see more variation in terms of armour and equipment.

But yes, the lack of distinguishing markings is jarring to say the least. Even fully standardized military would have used such, and helmets were painted with heraldry.
Wouldn't munitions plate be significantly more advanced than we'd expect to see? That's a post-gunpowder development. Possibly Isengard would make it since Saruman seemed to be trying to invent industrial warfare (and was also incompetent at organizing his forces, hence might not know to add heraldry), but Gondor and especially the elves seemed more on the individual craftsman making highest-quality stuff side.

Another bit of tactical blunder is that the Orcs tended to do a lot of earthworks and trench-building in the books, which never makes it into the movies.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
And even if arrow penetrated plate,it could not kill owner,only deliver small injure.During one of english cyvil wars/before 1415/ leader of rebels died from arrow to the face,but if it hit in other place he would live and fight.

Main mistake for me - making Uruk-hai supersoldiers capable of fighting humans one to one and winning.In book they were only superorcs.
When they fought Eomer,there were 80+x uruks and 100 mordor orcs against 120 rohirrim - and orcs get wiped out,and Rohirrims lost only 15KIA.
When i tried to use rules from LOTR gametop ,/on paper,not frigurines/ loses was always greater,and orcs could win.
And making oliphants on steroid.They were big,but not like brontosaurus or something.

Well, in that particular battle, I believe that it were the mounted Rohirrim against infantry. And since they were a hunting party, they probably didn't have any of the heavy gear for war; no shields or spears or pikes that might have made a difference in that encounter. Adding to this is the fact that should a cavalry charge break the orc formation (if they indeed had formed some kind of formation, which I would expect), then they rest of the orc ranks would have broken. So the Rohirrim would have only needed to kill a dozen or so before the rest of the formation fell apart.

Take into account that the uruks and the mordor orcs were at odds with one another and you might see how the ranks would have broken after the Rohirrim initially broke through. Especially if they killed the larger, more capable, and cunning uruks. I doubt the mordor orcs would have stayed long for that fight.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
Introduction

This post will cover mistakes in the Lord of the Rings movies, as they pertain to the military tactics and technology. The greater mythological / worldbuilding mistakes (of which there are many) will not be covered.

General

Nobody in Lord of the Rings books used plate armor – not even the dwarves. n the movie, King Theoden, Gondorians and Uruk Hai are all shown to use it.

While interesting, I somewhat doubt that's really something to make a big deal out of. In this case, I expect that it's more of an aesthetic change. And it's probably easier to make fake plate armor that looks better than fake mail that looks passable without resorting to things like knitted sweaters.

In the first scene, a battle is shown between Numenoran/Elven Alliance and forces of Sauron. This is also where first mistake happens, though Jackson can be excused, for noticing it one must have read The Unfinished Tales. Namely, Numenoreans are shown using plate armor. While it is clearly shown in the Lord of the Rings that Gondorians and Rohirrim use chain armor (maille), only in the Unifinished Tales is it shown true for Numenoreans – Isildur takes off his maille in one scene, and no plate armor is mentioned. Elves likewise never used the plate armour.

Elves use some weird curved swords, when – being Noldor – they ought to use straight swords of the same type the Men of the West use (in fact, longswords are a Noldorin design to begin with). Bows that Numenoreans use also seem to be wooden, though it is hard to tell due to the lighting (they used steel bows in the books).

I think the more immediate issue is that the elves decided to put swordsman up in front (instead of spearmen), used really shitty two-headed swords, and the actual combat strategy/tactics. Firing arrows through ranks at oncoming orcs? Instead of firing over the ranks to pelt the oncoming orcs? That's insane.

Elendil’s death and Sauron’s defeat also shown wrongly. Sauron did not, in fact, collapse when One Ring was cut off his hand. Nor did Elendil just die in one stroke. It were really Elendil and Gil-Galad who defeated Sauron, though they died in the process. Isildur’s contribution consisted of cutting off the Ring from defeated Sauron’s hand and then refusing to destroy it.

Yeah...that was a bad call on the part of Peter Jackson.

When the orcs attack at Osgilliath, a Gondorian guard is killed by an arrow through the breastplate. This would have been impossible even with a longbow at such a distance, and especially so with the flimsy short bow used by the orcs. Battle itself feels less like a medieval battle and more of a reenactment of a World War II battle with medieval weapons. Orcs advance in uncovered boats which look like World War II Higgins boat. Gondorian heavy infantry could have easily cut down the orcs had they formed a shield wall, but they do not do so – instead, they hide behind the columns, waiting for the orcs to land – as if exposing themselves will have gotten them killed by the mass machine guns orcish army apparently fields. There is also no evidence of any attempt to fortify the coast in the months since the eastern part of the city had been lost. Instead, the defenders cower behind the columns and allow themselves to be surrounded before attacking. And since the fight quickly degenerates into one-on-one duels – something that no ancient or medieval army would have allowed – there is no chance to hold the orcs back. In fact, fighting in Osgilliath in general can only be described as “mayhem” or, more accurately, drunken mob fight – neither side uses formations or tactics, and the orcs are winning through the weight of numbers.

This comes from a lot of people not knowing how medieval warfare works or how to make medieval warfare look good on the big screen. My guess is that anyone that Peter Jackson worked with to make those scenes, even if he knew better, the people he worked with would have only real experience in shooting modern warfare scenes, both in technical accuracy and emotional build-up, and pay off.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Wouldn't munitions plate be significantly more advanced than we'd expect to see? That's a post-gunpowder development. Possibly Isengard would make it since Saruman seemed to be trying to invent industrial warfare (and was also incompetent at organizing his forces, hence might not know to add heraldry), but Gondor and especially the elves seemed more on the individual craftsman making highest-quality stuff side.

Another bit of tactical blunder is that the Orcs tended to do a lot of earthworks and trench-building in the books, which never makes it into the movies.

Not really. Munitions plate appeared not because of the technological but rather because of the social development - appearance of the massive centrally-supplied professional armies in the late 15th century. Roman Empire also had centralized armour production centres ever since Diocletian introduced the state-administered fabricae, which produced highly standardized weapons and armour. In fact, many changes in the equipment around that time - such as introduction of the ridged helmet - can be explained most easily by the requirements of mass production of military equipment. System further centralized over time, with Justinian even introducing a state official - scrinum fabricarum - in the charge of weapons production.

For the purposes of discussion here, it is important to note that these farbicae in fact persisted well into the 10th century, which is to say for as long as the ancient, professional Roman military also persisted. Most of them were, of course, lost during the Migrations period (5th to 7th centuries), but the surviving fabricae continued operation and were supplemented by thematic workshops. Soldiers had to buy their equipment, but it appears that they bought it from the state - though private supply is obviously not impossible.

So as I said, while Rohan is unlikely to have any sort of centralized supply (Rohirrim are, in fact, noted to have bought their armour from Gondor), other major players - Mordor, Gondor, Isengard and perhaps dwarven kingdoms - should all have the capacity for mass production of weapons and armour.

And yeah, Siege of Minas Tirith is extremely incompetently done in the movies. But, hey, cinematography.

I think the more immediate issue is that the elves decided to put swordsman up in front (instead of spearmen), used really shitty two-headed swords, and the actual combat strategy/tactics. Firing arrows through ranks at oncoming orcs? Instead of firing over the ranks to pelt the oncoming orcs? That's insane.

Actually, I'd disagree there. First, we see - in the opening scene - Numenoreans pelting orcs with arrows at long range. But when you are fighting opponents wearing (admittedly shitty) plate armour, you want to utilize direct fire: which is to say, shooting arrows from close to point-blank range.

But yeah, swordsmen up front is an idiotic idea - but then we see Numenoreans also utilizing swords, so I just chalked it up to wanting to use "Roman Army" feel.

This comes from a lot of people not knowing how medieval warfare works or how to make medieval warfare look good on the big screen. My guess is that anyone that Peter Jackson worked with to make those scenes, even if he knew better, the people he worked with would have only real experience in shooting modern warfare scenes, both in technical accuracy and emotional build-up, and pay off.

Agreed. Plus, it might also be due to pacing - heavy infantry can hold out for a very long time even against a superior force (something which is, in fact, implied in the books), but that is not very exciting to watch... And I think Peter Jackson specifically has experience in shooting World War I and II movies, so that might have influenced him as well.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
Actually, I'd disagree there. First, we see - in the opening scene - Numenoreans pelting orcs with arrows at long range. But when you are fighting opponents wearing (admittedly shitty) plate armour, you want to utilize direct fire: which is to say, shooting arrows from close to point-blank range.

And I would have to disagree with that.

Utilizing direct fire is not the problem here. The problem is when you do it with infantry ranks directly in front of you. The elven archers fired through the gaps of the heads of the front ranks. Regardless of what you think of elven archery skills, just one guy shifting his weight in the front could have gotten one of their own men killed. And while the effect was good for slowing down the charging mass of orcs (which in itself is retarded--who thinks it's a good idea to run a few dozen yards into an enemy line?), it would have been safer and more effective, for the archers to be in front, with some kind of shield fortifications and spikes. Doing so would have inflicted considerable damage on the orcs, while slowing down their advance, AND forcing them to break their ranks (had they any) when they finally pressed into the elven ranks.

And the elves should have been using spears and shields. Or at least pikes, if we're going with a later medieval setting.

But yeah, swordsmen up front is an idiotic idea - but then we see Numenoreans also utilizing swords, so I just chalked it up to wanting to use "Roman Army" feel.

No, because the Romans used spears too. Swords are literally secondary weapons in most instances of war. This is more that Peter Jackson didn't know what he was doing when he got the scene together or assumed that his audience didn't. Watching all those elves and Numenoreans march along with swords and shields is always a bit painful for me.

Agreed. Plus, it might also be due to pacing - heavy infantry can hold out for a very long time even against a superior force (something which is, in fact, implied in the books), but that is not very exciting to watch... And I think Peter Jackson specifically has experience in shooting World War I and II movies, so that might have influenced him as well.

I expect it did influence him. Both in his ability to understand how military conflicts work, the specific dangers, and how to make it exciting. That said, about half the mistakes in the article are nitpicks (the sword forging is nearly autistic in its criticism), but if you want a real example of Peter Jackson's military incompetence, you can look to the Hobbit franchise and the outright cartoonish buffooneries that took place.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
Adding to this is the fact that should a cavalry charge break the orc formation (if they indeed had formed some kind of formation, which I would expect), then they rest of the orc ranks would have broken. So the Rohirrim would have only needed to kill a dozen or so before the rest of the formation fell

Having seen the films, at some points I did wonder whether or not Orcs were fatally allergic to horses as whenever they went up against cavalry they simply disintegrated. The mass formations of Mordor's army at Pelennor fields just got demolished by Theoden's heavy horse, even though they were badly outnumbered.
 

Buba

A total creep
One of the (several) scenes that had me crying was the siege of Helm's Deep. Namely - the approach to the gate. When walking towards it the attackers had the wall on the left.
You never have that in RL, I've never seen a castle (not that I've seen that many) where during the approach the wall is on the left. Why?
Shields.
Shield's are carried on the left side. Hence castles were built in a manner forcing the attack to expose their right side to the defenders.
However, I have dim memory of seeing Tolkien endorsed art (or was it in the text itself?) where this atrocity already had been committed.

Some other howlers:
- the angle of descent of Gandalf led cavalry charge at the Uruk Hai
- Orcs outside Minas Tirith (facing a cavalry charge) armed with toothpicks
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
Having seen the films, at some points I did wonder whether or not Orcs were fatally allergic to horses as whenever they went up against cavalry they simply disintegrated. The mass formations of Mordor's army at Pelennor fields just got demolished by Theoden's heavy horse, even though they were badly outnumbered.

Well, I had a similar memory of it, but looking back...



A couple things come to mind.

1) The orc commander would not have been able to know the sheer size of the host that the King Theoden had brought with him. The only idea the commander could of obtained was by their formation. He might have guessed that it was a large host, but he might also have thought that King Theoden was trying to bluff him. He only seemed to realize the actual (immense) depth of the cavalry he was facing when he saw them smash through his front ranks.

2) My guess, given the reaction of the orc commander (6:38), was that he had indeed underestimated the sheer size of the host that Theoden had brought with him. Because that is a SHITLOAD of cavalry. If it had been just a few units, his men would have held them off. Even if his new frontline had been chewed apart, they would have held. But if you look at the two armies right before impact, there is a thin strip of spearmen you can see apart from the rest of the ranks facing the Rohirrim (6:39), that is NOT enough to stop a cavalry charge of that size.

3) The orc army's moral broke before Theoden's men had even reached them. The orc spearmen were actually pulling away from the frontlines and retreating before the actual impact. And that left a depleted (in terms of moral and mass) of troops who had to try and stop the sheer weight of Theoden's host on their own. And instead of inflicting damage, what happened was Theoden's men punched right throw and literally mowed orcs down.

4) Once the host had penetrated the spearmen (a quarter of whom appear to have begun to fled before impact), the rest of the orc army lost cohesion.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
And I would have to disagree with that.

Utilizing direct fire is not the problem here. The problem is when you do it with infantry ranks directly in front of you. The elven archers fired through the gaps of the heads of the front ranks. Regardless of what you think of elven archery skills, just one guy shifting his weight in the front could have gotten one of their own men killed. And while the effect was good for slowing down the charging mass of orcs (which in itself is retarded--who thinks it's a good idea to run a few dozen yards into an enemy line?), it would have been safer and more effective, for the archers to be in front, with some kind of shield fortifications and spikes. Doing so would have inflicted considerable damage on the orcs, while slowing down their advance, AND forcing them to break their ranks (had they any) when they finally pressed into the elven ranks.

And the elves should have been using spears and shields. Or at least pikes, if we're going with a later medieval setting.

Agreed. Though to be fair, these are elves: they might have couple of centuries of practice at it.

No, because the Romans used spears too. Swords are literally secondary weapons in most instances of war. This is more that Peter Jackson didn't know what he was doing when he got the scene together or assumed that his audience didn't. Watching all those elves and Numenoreans march along with swords and shields is always a bit painful for me.

I know that. Point isn't how Romans fought, but how people think Romans fought. Look at illustrations of Romans at battle, and you will - with the exception of specifically educational books - almost always see them using swords, not javelins.

I expect it did influence him. Both in his ability to understand how military conflicts work, the specific dangers, and how to make it exciting. That said, about half the mistakes in the article are nitpicks (the sword forging is nearly autistic in its criticism), but if you want a real example of Peter Jackson's military incompetence, you can look to the Hobbit franchise and the outright cartoonish buffooneries that took place.

Eh, I will do that in a separate article. Otherwise, this article will have been too long to read.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Well, in that particular battle, I believe that it were the mounted Rohirrim against infantry. And since they were a hunting party, they probably didn't have any of the heavy gear for war; no shields or spears or pikes that might have made a difference in that encounter. Adding to this is the fact that should a cavalry charge break the orc formation (if they indeed had formed some kind of formation, which I would expect), then they rest of the orc ranks would have broken. So the Rohirrim would have only needed to kill a dozen or so before the rest of the formation fell apart.

Take into account that the uruks and the mordor orcs were at odds with one another and you might see how the ranks would have broken after the Rohirrim initially broke through. Especially if they killed the larger, more capable, and cunning uruks. I doubt the mordor orcs would have stayed long for that fight.
Indeed,they have no pikes and few archers.But my argument about Uruks not being supersoldiers they were in movie in all other battles is still valid - in book they were super only compared to normal orcs.

And oliphants should not be that big.
 

Buba

A total creep
The orc commander would not have been able to know the sheer size of the host that the King Theoden had brought with him.
The charge of the Rohirrim at the Pellenor is another howler in my eyes.
Not a mistake per se, not historical/laws of physics/common sense one, but cinematographic.

The work up to the charge is one of the best scenes in the movies. We see an army reading for a death ride, an attack with low chances of survival. Truly moving!
The Few against the Many!
Against all odds!
Thin red line! etc. etc.
They ride out for their DEATH!
Ballsacks shrivel/nipples pucker in admiration and awe and apprehension!
And then the view from above - what do we see? A fucking wave of riders swamping a few poow leedle orcs!

Plus there is some very bad CGI during the charge. The bloke with the axe comes to mind.
And have I mentioned shields being strapped to saddles? Instead of being USED?
Nevertheless it is the overhead view of the charge of the fucking Peoples Liberation Army of China which makes my blood boil.
The siege is a mix of some excellent and awful cinema ...

And please don't mention Faramir's charge across a flat field at entrenched infantry within my hearing ...
 
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Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
One of the (several) scenes that had me crying was the siege of Helm's Deep. Namely - the approach to the gate. When walking towards it the attackers had the wall on the left.
You never have that in RL, I've never seen a castle (not that I've seen that many) where during the approach the wall is on the left. Why?
Shields.
Shield's are carried on the left side. Hence castles were built in a manner forcing the attack to expose their right side to the defenders.
However, I have dim memory of seeing Tolkien endorsed art (or was it in the text itself?) where this atrocity already had been committed.

I believe that was caused by the geography of the Deep. Namely, the Helm's Keep (Hornburg) was located on the rock outcrop, and the Deeping Wall merely closed off the entrance from the Helm's Deep.
At Helm’s Gate, before the mouth of the Deep, there was a heel of rock thrust outward by the northern cliff. There upon its spur stood high walls of ancient stone,and within them was a lofty tower.”

So you have a natural cliff outcrop by the northern cliff - it makes sense that they would use it.

And in fact, you have several fortresses where geography has dictated the approach so that the wall is to the left of the attackers. One that immediately comes to mind is the Klis fortress:
klis-za-web-ivo-biocina.jpg


Look at the gates in the wall circuits: all of them have walls to the left.
 

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