Maus “Book Banning”

[Abhorsen]

That is a extreme view, so no. Things aren't 8 or 80 like that. While I get the parallel that Pelinal was making I think that is too extreme. Without the further context it is little more than a edgy graphic novel that might be too hard for younger kids to properly grasp. On this scale of mine, think of Maus as being a little less jarring than showing Full Metal Jacket to 8th graders to talk about the Vietnam War: It is correct material, and they will get some of the lessons, but it's not really gonna click properly due to immaturity of the kids and the shock value jarring it a bit.

Eh, I disagree. If you were talking about 5th grader's I'd agree, but 8th and 9th grade kids are assigned serious stuff, like Maus, 1984, etc. Not just those works, but they are there in context. Again, this is part of a curriculum, where Maus is taught along with other info, not just thrown at them for no reason.

 

[Sobek]

To be fair, the issue isn't so much the kids here as much as the fact I don't trust American Government Schools to do any sort of decent job as well.

 

[Abhorsen]

To be fair, the issue isn't so much the kids here as much as the fact I don't trust American Government Schools to do any sort of decent job as well.

In general, no, but as long as they do exist, I want them trying to teach. This is part of teaching, and I'm seeing no real objection to teaching Maus here that matches to the reasons it was banned.

 

[Sobek]

Again, not banned. Removed from the curriculum. Pretty sure the kids can still go and read it even if they are younger than 8th year in the library.

 

[ShieldWife]

Censorship:
1a) the institution, system, or practice of censoring
b) the actions or practices of censors

Censor (verb)
to examine in order to suppress (see SUPPRESS sense 2) or delete anything considered objectionable

Yeah, this is 100% censorship. You don't seem to know what the word means.

You give two definitions there that don’t actually define censorship. You just pass the buck on to “suppress” so let’s follow your own link to the definition.

1: to end or stop (something) by force

2: to keep (something) secret : to not allow people to know about or see (something)

Is the school not allowing people to know about or see Maus? Are they stopping the sale, publication, or reading of Maus by force? No on both counts. They are simply not including the book in the curriculum. Which means that they aren’t going to force students to read Maus. They aren’t stopping anybody from reading it who wants to, they just aren’t forcing kids to read it.

This seems like typical leftist double think. It’s censorship when people aren’t forced to read books that they like.

It already bought the books, it's literally changing the curriculum now because it doesn't like the nudity, in a book about the holocaust. In fact, the book is so good that without it, they are considering cutting the section on the holocaust from the schools. Yes, schools should be privatized, but as long as they aren't, schools shouldn't be banning books like Maus from 8th graders.

It doesn’t matter if they already bought the books, I’m sure that they have access to numerous books that aren’t going to be part of the curriculum. It does seem silly to avoid the book solely on the grounds of cartoon boobs or bad words, but just because you think that their decision not to use this book is bad doesn’t make it censorship.

Also, believe me, they aren’t going to cut the Holocaust from the curriculum.

See, and this is where you're problem is: both are censorship, and by denying one you make yourself out to be just as much as a partisan hack as people ignoring the other side. Sure some censorship could be worse than other censorship, but it's all bad, and the little loophole you use this time will be used against you instead.

Oh yeah, deciding not to force kids to read a book is exactly the same as putting people in jail for reading it.

How am I just as much of a partisan hack as the leftists who think that it’s fascist oppression that kids aren’t forced to read a Holocaust comic book who also want people to lose their jobs, be purged from the internet, beaten up, or even put in jail for saying stuff that they disagree with? Have I said anything negative about Maus? I haven’t even said that I agree with the school’s decision. I have no desire to ban Maus, to arrest the author or publishers, to get people fired from their jobs or ostracized for reading it. I don’t even have any major objections to boobies or four letter words. So in what way am I a partisan hack? In what way am I comparable to people who want people arrested for dissent but bitch and moan because a book they like isn’t being forced on kids?

 

[Sobek]

Honestly this entire situation sounds like a desperate move by the CRT defense force to sabotage the opposition and stop them from getting that shit out of the schools. They have dug up the corpse of "stupid puritan evangelicals banning books" to parade around in propaganda tweets to try and make themselves sound in any way liberal and sensible and stop parents from taking literal pornography and race based segregation and treatment from schools.

 

[Abhorsen]

You give two definitions there that don’t actually define censorship. You just pass the buck on to “suppress” so let’s follow your own link to the definition.

1: to end or stop (something) by force

2: to keep (something) secret : to not allow people to know about or see (something)

No. I give one definition of censorship that says it means the act of censoring. Obviously, not very useful. So I then included a definition of censoring (or the verb to censor).

And to suppress, from my source, has more definitions than you included:

Full Definition of suppress

transitive verb
1: to put down by authority or force : SUBDUEsuppress a riot
2: to keep from public knowledge: such as
a: to keep secret
b: to stop or prohibit the publication or revelation ofsuppress the test results
3a: to exclude from consciousness
b: to keep from giving vent to : CHECKsuppressed her anger
4obsolete : to press down
5a: to restrain from a usual course or actionsuppress a cough
b: to inhibit the growth or development of
6: to inhibit the genetic expression ofsuppress a mutation
Other Words from suppres

It meets definition 2,3, and 5 pretty well, 2 especially. Demanding a book stop being taught and relegating it to the library is definitely an attempt (a probably successful attempt if it weren't for reporting) to keep stuff from public knowledge. It's not a perfect attempt, but it definitely suppresses knowledge.

Also, believe me, they aren’t going to cut the Holocaust from the curriculum.

They literally say they are probably going to do that:

Tennessee School Board Pulls Maus From Eighth-Grade Curriculum

Art Spiegelman's once-controversial and now-canonical graphic memoir Maus has been removed from the McMinn County, Tennessee, school curriculum in a…

reason.com

While the board insists it is not against teaching the Holocaust, one member admitted that if they can't find a good substitute to anchor the Holocaust module now that Maus has been jettisoned, "It would probably mean we would have to move on to another module."

And given there isn't a good substitute for 8th graders (Dairy of a Young Girl really doesn't teach much about the holocaust, nonfiction books don't personalize the number), yeah, they're likely going to toss it.

Oh yeah, deciding not to force kids to read a book is exactly the same as putting people in jail for reading it.

Note that my posts have repeated pointed out that the force from public schools is wrong. But it does exist. And so while the wrong exists, it needs to not be worse. This is making it worse. And why are they suppressing knowledge of it? Ostensibly because of nudity, et al. Which is a stupid reason and classic censorship.

How am I just as much of a partisan hack as the leftists who think that it’s fascist oppression that kids aren’t forced to read a Holocaust comic book who also want people to lose their jobs, be purged from the internet, beaten up, or even put in jail for saying stuff that they disagree with? Have I said anything negative about Maus? I haven’t even said that I agree with the school’s decision. I have no desire to ban Maus, to arrest the author or publishers, to get people fired from their jobs or ostracized for reading it. I don’t even have any objections to boobies or fucking four letter words. So in what way am I a partisan hack? In what way am I comparable to people who want people arrested for dissent but bitch and moan because a book they like isn’t being forced on kids?

You aren't worse in other ways, but you are equally bad in the partisan hackish term, where you won't admit what your side did was censorship, just like the left won't either. That's partisan hackishness: perceiving similar actions as different because one party is on your side.

Honestly this entire situation sounds like a desperate move by the CRT defense force to sabotage the opposition and stop them from getting that shit out of the schools. They have dug up the corpse of "stupid puritan evangelicals banning books" to parade around in propaganda tweets to try and make themselves sound in any way liberal and sensible and stop parents from taking literal pornography and race based segregation and treatment from schools.

This is basically the same argument leftists use when they say "Republicans Pounce". Look, the anti CRT team fucked up by themselves. Yes, the left is focusing on the fuckup: it's useful to them. Doesn't mean it's not a fuckup though. Now you gotta fix the controversy.

 

[Captain X]

I'm content to ignore the hypocrites. Frankly this school board should bring the fact that these people are complete hypocrites in that they actually do try to keep people in general from being able to buy books and comics that they don't like. Hell recently they got Dr. Suess's estate to stop publishing some of his books. Why is teaching about the Holocaust hinged on a comic book anyway? Are you seriously telling me that there aren't any history textbooks for that grade level which go over it?

 

[Sobek]

I'm content to ignore the hypocrites. Frankly this school board should bring the fact that these people are complete hypocrites in that they actually do try to keep people in general from being able to buy books and comics that they don't like. Hell recently they got Dr. Suess's estate to stop publishing some of his books. Why is teaching about the Holocaust hinged on a comic book anyway? Are you seriously telling me that there aren't any history textbooks for that grade level which go over it?

Because it has nothing to do with any sort of standards, only power.

 

[Abhorsen]

I'm content to ignore the hypocrites. Frankly this school board should bring the fact that these people are complete hypocrites in that they actually do try to keep people in general from being able to buy books and comics that they don't like. Hell recently they got Dr. Suess's estate to stop publishing some of his books. Why is teaching about the Holocaust hinged on a comic book anyway? Are you seriously telling me that there aren't any history textbooks for that grade level which go over it?

So the comic book isn't something easily replaced. It's an honest work of art that conveys a shitton of knowledge in a way understandable to kids, while also personalizing it. It can't really be replaced. A textbook would be dry, in a way that wouldn't teach. And no other written work really approaches it well.

 

[Captain X]

I managed.

 

[Whitestrake Pelinal]

So the comic book isn't something easily replaced. It's an honest work of art that conveys a shitton of knowledge in a way understandable to kids, while also personalizing it. It can't really be replaced. A textbook would be dry, in a way that wouldn't teach. And no other written work really approaches it well.

It's not personal. It's not about them and shouldn't be, and trying to personalize it, trying to drive fear and hatred into their hearts, is disgusting.

History class is an intellectual pursuit, not Pavlovian training.

 

[ShieldWife]

It's not personal. It's not about them and shouldn't be, and trying to personalize it, trying to drive fear and hatred into their hearts, is disgusting.

History class is an intellectual pursuit, not Pavlovian training.

It’s not about history, it’s a religion.

 

[Abhorsen]

It's not personal. It's not about them and shouldn't be, and trying to personalize it, trying to drive fear and hatred into their hearts, is disgusting.

History class is an intellectual pursuit, not Pavlovian training.

I don't think you should be talking about this, when you're the one who thinks that the Greatest generation is a traitor generation for waging war with Europeans.

And second, no, history is not and should not be some stupid, dry text without emotion to it. It absolutely should be teaching kids not to make the mistakes of the past, which is why the horrors of both fascism and communism need to be taught in a way people understand and can connect with. Because most kids aren't going to become historians, and that's okay. But they still need to learn the major lessons from history, and one of those is that creating arbitrary divisions is how the powerful get and stay powerful, and such villification will lead to atrocity. The Holocaust, because of the great cost, is one of the premier teachers of this, and needs to be taught in such a personal way.

But then, you don't actually want people learning this lesson, do you?

 

[LordSunhawk]

OK, Historian here. No, you do not need Maus to properly teach the Holocaust to 8th graders in a manner that will hit home. There are plenty of other, far less graphic, resources that can be used for the purpose.

I will note, moreover, that history curricula suck ass to begin with, mostly due to it being stuffed full of useless politically correct and convenient bullshit that is ultimately meaningless to a general formation of historical knowledge.

 

[StormEagle]

My opinion?

If you need a graphic novel with anthropomorphic, naked furries to properly teach history to kids, you probably shouldn’t be teaching in the first place…and also maybe not be around children if you’re mad about them not seeing the mouse titties.

This is only censorship by the insane standards of woke fuckheads or lolbertarians looking for a fight.

The book is not being banned from school property. It is still in the library if little Jimmy and Suzy want to read it, and there is nothing in the world stopping them or their parents from purchasing the book if they so wish.

TLDR? Furries are scum, we shouldn’t be using a glorified comic book to teach anyways, and this is a tempest in a teacup being stirred up by idiots.

 

[Battlegrinder]

First off, this is not the first time parents have gotten irrationally prudish about anything vaguely sexual or nudity related when it comes to kid's education, if this wasn't current year and it wasn't a book that include both Nazis and nudity no one would have ever heard about this (when was the last time some random school library tossing it's Judy Blume novels made national news?).



That aside, I'm not exactly convinced by the case being made/implied that without this one book, that it's just too difficult to teach about the holocaust. It was only published in 1980 and I don't recall hearing anything about pre-1980 school teachers going "oh, we just can't seem to convince these kids that the holocaust was wrong, if only there was something we could use as a teaching aid, ideally involving mice". There's been a lot of ugly things in history and we've somehow managed to educated people about it for generations, without burying the lesson under layers of cutsy animal metaphors. If your curriculum is built around one particular book and can't function without that exact book, then your history curricula sucks and needs be fixed.

Frankly, I don't much care for the "teach via fiction" system in general, if you're going to talk about the holocaust, then teach about the actual holocaust using real history and real sources. If kids are old enough for graphic mouse nudity or whatever the deal is here, then they're probably old enough to handle some emancipated concentration camp survivors.

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

I consider this story mostly a smoke screen for the ongoing push for objectionable material in school libraries and Maus is a more tolerable hill for the Left to set up a defense then genderqueer. As the town has made its reasons and they appear valid enough, its clearly just trying to remove the argument from the suicidal hill that is the others.

 

[Abhorsen]

Frankly, I don't much care for the "teach via fiction" system in general, if you're going to talk about the holocaust, then teach about the actual holocaust using real history and real sources. If kids are old enough for graphic mouse nudity or whatever the deal is here, then they're probably old enough to handle some emancipated concentration camp survivors.

For the record, the book is non-fiction outside of drawing animal heads on characters. It's a true story of a guy telling the experiences of his parents living through it, and of him writing it.

The animal features are actually a great way to talk about the racial essentialism of the Nazis while pointing out it's meaninglessness.

 

[BlackDragon98]

OK, Historian here. No, you do not need Maus to properly teach the Holocaust to 8th graders in a manner that will hit home. There are plenty of other, far less graphic, resources that can be used for the purpose.

You have a degree in history? I'm just curious because it's pretty rare these days as history is considered an unprofitable degree.

And I was forced to read Maus in high school as part of my English class. I did not appreciate it at all. It felt like the author was some sort of closeted furry who was try to cram his views and his endless whinging into one book.

I will note, moreover, that history curricula suck ass to begin with, mostly due to it being stuffed full of useless politically correct and convenient bullshit that is ultimately meaningless to a general formation of historical knowledge.

You get more history out of playing Assassin's Creed than history class.

Or a board game (online in this case) like Open General.

Zero propaganda. 100% military strategy and trying to stop the Soviet tide from overwhelming your skeleton army on the Oder River. Pain.

I consider this story mostly a smoke screen for the ongoing push for objectionable material in school libraries and Maus is a more tolerable hill for the Left to set up a defense then genderqueer. As the town has made its reasons and they appear valid enough, its clearly just trying to remove the argument from the suicidal hill that is the others.

The left realize that they need to be reasonable.

So they switch from queer shit and brainwashing little kids into mutilating their genitals to furry porn and the good old cliche of evil Nazis.