Libertarianism: The Official Thread Of Freedom As An Ideology.

what are you doing?

I voted and as of late been trying to get involved in my community. I'm working for a company that opened up a big entertainment center in the city I live near (We desperately needed one) and it looks like I'll be able to make a full career out of it. Gotten out of my shell a bit more and have actually made some friends. all in all in spite of all the crap going on things are looking up for me.
 
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JagerIV

Well-known member
I voted and as of late been trying to get involved in my community. I'm working for a company that opened up a big entertainment center in the city I live near (We desperately needed one) and it looks like I'll be able to make a full career out of it. Gotten out of my shell a bit more and have actually made some friends. all in all in spite of all the crap going on things are looking up for me.

Okay, so what are you doing here making "white noise"? This is what's so frustrating about you, nothing you say ever seems to have anything to do with the ongoing conversation.
 
Okay, so what are you doing here making "white noise"? This is what's so frustrating about you, nothing you say ever seems to have anything to do with the ongoing conversation.

What can I say that hasn't been told a million times over at this point? I and people like me have been pointing out the issues you will run into with your philosophy and you either dismiss them outright or say you don't understand the argument Despite everyone trying to explain things as simply as they can. (see Abhorsen Bacle and your wealth gap thread) so it seems fairly obvious that you don't think your wrong, no one has a good argument against you and no one really will. Fine, if you think you found the solution execute it. Pondering how you should write the book does nothing if you don't actually write it down.

as far as "Contributing to the conversation," very well, given the fact that I probably lean closest to libertarianism then anything else. I'll try to explain my philosophy and grievances as best I can

People like me want to be left alone to live our life as we feel necessary. that's it. that's the endgame. We don't care about purity or some greater philosophy. You stay on your side, we'll stay on ours, and the both of us will meet where we have common ground and keep separate when we don't. We're not anarchist per se. But we do want government to be as small and localized and minor as possible. People should be responsible for their own lives not some greater entity like a empire.

It's impractical only because because people make it impracticable. Guys don't like our philosophy it doesn't match thier endgame or their idea of right and wrong. So they push and kick us around and when we argue for MAP or you know right to bare arms, we're called stupid at best barbaric at worst.

the argument of our detractors seems to boil down to. "If we don't conquer you they will and we are the lesser of two evils, so be a good boy and make it easier on all of us and just bow down. If you are a good enough citizen you might have a place in our order." To which people like me say "No you want my life you'll have to take it." maybe we're selfish, maybe we'll lose and but we won't down to you just to save our own skin. whatever happens after whether we win or whether they have a boot on our corpse, they have no right to cry to my ghost when they get impaled on their own sword.

As far as what i'm doing here. I really don't know anymore. I guess maybe If I point stuff out long enough it'll eventually get through someone "sunk cost fallacy" I guess. I've been doing this for so long I don't know how to drop it.
 
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Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
The difference between it and the slave trade is that the people consented to be moved. Yes, it does put downward pressure on wages. But to a libertarian, that's part and parcel of being part of the free market. Again, there is an emphasis on individual rights here.
Yes, and in that way you get a large pool of people who would work for pennies on the dollar and probably hate the host society and its ideals, like for example many Indians in the western tech industry.
And when they get to key positions they push for more outsourcing to India and install their friends in higher positions.
In-group preference and corporate bureaucracy can trump individualism.

They are pretty clannish and have a strong in-group preference against non-Indians.
Also, those people tend to vote for leftists and try to get even more migrants in, often less skilled ones and the motivation and quality in the company go to the bottom.

I have seen this shit happen on several occasions, and it wasn't just Indians, although they are the primary driver of this stuff usually.
I had to deal with one place where the new lead was Irish for example, and he basically got a few of his more incompetent irish buddies employed.
Hell, I have seen it on a regional level here, with bosses that come from one region having a pretty strong preference for other people from that region.

I remember there was literally an article in The Economist some years back when I still read it explaining how the UK had a lack of indian cooks and how Eastern Europeans can't into making Chicken VIndaloo, and of course it was Indian restaurant owners that were bitching and moaning and demanding more visas for low-skilled Indian workers.
To top it all off, that particular "Indian" quisine was allegedly just a British twist on existing Indian food, turning it into glorified junkfood, not really high quisine, and anyone who can flip burgers or work at KFC should be able to make that stuff easily.

See, a socialist sees this and comes to the same conclusion you are (not calling you a socialist, to be clear, just saying there's one similarity): this depresses wages, that's bad, and we need to protect the (current) workers. Note the collectivism though: both you and the socialist believe that the group has a right to fight against these workers.
The combination of wage depression and importing people who are indifferent or outright antagonistic to the west and your ideas of freedom is IMHO a very bad idea.
Also, education in say India can be much cheaper than in the West, thus their exported labor might have yet another unfair competitive advantage.

This is completely counter to a libertarian's view. The libertarian asks both sides (the company and the immigrant/prospective employee, not anyone else) if they consent, and if both say yes, is fine with this.

Yes, this might suck for someone else, but they don't have the right to interfere in other people's business. Even if it would benefit society at large.

How well has that worked out for the more cosmopolitan areas, like London, the US and Canada coastal areas, and the like?
Declining wages plus increases in people leading to rent and price inflation for example.


And as it turns out, this sort of immigration is how the US maintains it's power. By accepting those who are willing to move, they come here and benefit the US (having already selected for not needing welfare on an HB-2 visa as they have a job waiting). These sort of immigrants benefit the US via constant brain drain from other, worse off countries, places people don't want to stay. It's good for the nation that we keep this going.

Third world shitholes will stay shitholes until there is no organic pressure from inside to make them change IMHO.
In fact some dictators, kleptocrats and oligarchies are glad to push out some of their best and brightest, as well as some of their worse off, into the west.
That decreases the social pressure for change and boosts remittances that they can use to reward their cronies as well as bribe/coerce the rest of the population to stay silent and inert.

As for trade, the only time I'm really against it is when it's subsidizing slave labor or other great evil. So not trading with China is something I'd be fine with. But not having free trade with another country is something I'd disdain.

There was literally one case where some staff were literally enslaved and made to work in an Indian call center under duress.

TBH a lot of Libertarians are eagerly selling their enemies the rope with which they will hang them, to paraphrase Lenin.

Also, cost cutting is actually a vital way things improve economically. The stagnation and protectionism you suggest will lead to a lot of problems long term, as shown in both when Detroit was beaten by Japan, and when the US Shipping industry died cause of the Jones act. If there's no reason to be competitive, eventually you get out competed to such an extent that people find ways around it and then your company goes to shit. Now that's not a moral argument, just an economic one, but it is definitely one any libertarian would raise.
Here I must disagree, lack of enough workers is actually a driving force for technological advancement and more flexibility in the job markets.
Being a scarce resource also gives the individual more bargaining power and thus more freedom.

Keep in mind that the Romans were pretty stagnant thanks to having slaves, if they had tighter jobs markets they might have managed to develop steam, wind and river power.

Windmills, for example, only started appearing in Europe only after the fall of the Roman empire despite Greeks and Romans playing around with the idea centuries before.

Similarly, the various plagues that ravaged Europe forced land reforms, higher salaries, improvements in agriculture and the following boom pushed it out of the Dark Ages.

Import cheap labor is not innovation, it is the enemy of innovation, just like hiring a few corporate bureaucrats to posture and introduce more idiotic "procedures" and push for more micro-managerial bullshit and layoffs is IMHO just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Here is one example from my RL experience, ticketing systems.

I consistently saw people ignoring root causes or persistent non-issues that generated bullshit alerts so that said alerts could generate incident tickets, so that they could assign them to themselves, and when they auto-closed they could point to the stats and say "look, me do much work".
Frankly, the entire idea of working towards time utilization instead of outcomes is utter bullshit, but modern corpo bureaucracy loves it, and all of the numerous levels of feckless corpo parasites just eat all that shit up.
 
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ParadiseLost

Well-known member
Libertarians are as detached from reality as Marxists.

The fundamental contradiction of libertarianism being 'freedom as an ideology' is that, like Communism, any 'Libertarian' government would have to use significant force to 'enforce' its Libertarianism on an unwilling populace.

For example, when it comes to immigration, a government's responsibility is not to allow free trade in order to maximize global welfare. A government's responsibility is to its people, not to foreigners.

If those people want to limit foreign immigration, then it becomes the governments responsibility to limit foreign immigration.

And this is where the contradiction of Libertarianism comes in: Libertarianism says that foreign immigration should be allowed anyway, even if its not in the interest of the native populace.

Libertarianism and Globalism in inextricably linked. Libertarianism is in reality just Corporatism with nice ideological window dressing.

And really, the only difference between late-stage Communism and late-stage Corporatism are whether the death squads and secret police are publicly or privately owned.
 
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Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Libertarians are as detached from reality as Marxists.

The fundamental contradiction of libertarianism being 'freedom as an ideology' is that, like Communism, any 'Libertarian' government would have to use significant force to 'enforce' its Libertarianism on an unwilling populace.

For example, when it comes to immigration, a government's responsibility is not to allow free trade in order to maximize global welfare. A government's responsibility is to its people, not to foreigners.

If those people want to limit foreign immigration, then it becomes the governments responsibility to limit foreign immigration.

And this is where the contradiction of Libertarianism comes in: Libertarianism says that foreign immigration should be allowed anyway, even if its not in the interest of the native populace.

Libertarianism and Globalism in inextricably linked. Libertarianism is in reality just Corporatism with nice ideological window dressing.

And really, the only difference between late-stage Communism and late-stage Corporatism are whether the death squads and secret police are publicly or privately owned.
Guess that's one reason why even such a small movement as libertarianism has so many sub-divisions.
For one, why should libertarians give the smallest damn about the "global welfare", especially when the globe is mostly populated by very non-libertarian nations?
This question in turn gets answered by the division between national libertarianism with more and ancaps or other more globalist oriented branches.
Here you have two (Lew Rockwell quoting Mises) of more popular libertarian thinkers agreeing that economy is not the beginning and the end of consideration for international immigration, but that multinational countries have problems and having a unified nation also has its benefits.
Full on open borders option is among libertarians mostly an ancap and left-libertarian thing,
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Libertarians are as detached from reality as Marxists.

The fundamental contradiction of libertarianism being 'freedom as an ideology' is that, like Communism, any 'Libertarian' government would have to use significant force to 'enforce' its Libertarianism on an unwilling populace.

For example, when it comes to immigration, a government's responsibility is not to allow free trade in order to maximize global welfare. A government's responsibility is to its people, not to foreigners.

If those people want to limit foreign immigration, then it becomes the governments responsibility to limit foreign immigration.

And this is where the contradiction of Libertarianism comes in: Libertarianism says that foreign immigration should be allowed anyway, even if its not in the interest of the native populace.

Libertarianism and Globalism in inextricably linked. Libertarianism is in reality just Corporatism with nice ideological window dressing.

And really, the only difference between late-stage Communism and late-stage Corporatism are whether the death squads and secret police are publicly or privately owned.
Its not really relevant what I define as Libertarian. I think most "Libertarian" ideological variations ultimately lead down the same path, even if they differ on a few details.
So basically ancaps or purity spiralling "Minarchists" turning into ancaps because they don't understand some specific aspects of human nature, like nationalism and other "non-objective" forms of unobjective behavior brought upon by kin selection?
 
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Abhorsen

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Yes, and in that way you get a large pool of people who would work for pennies on the dollar and probably hate the host society and its ideals, like for example many Indians in the western tech industry.
And when they get to key positions they push for more outsourcing to India and install their friends in higher positions.
In-group preference and corporate bureaucracy can trump individualism.

They are pretty clannish and have a strong in-group preference against non-Indians.
Also, those people tend to vote for leftists and try to get even more migrants in, often less skilled ones and the motivation and quality in the company go to the bottom.

I have seen this shit happen on several occasions, and it wasn't just Indians, although they are the primary driver of this stuff usually.
I had to deal with one place where the new lead was Irish for example, and he basically got a few of his more incompetent irish buddies employed.
Hell, I have seen it on a regional level here, with bosses that come from one region having a pretty strong preference for other people from that region.

I remember there was literally an article in The Economist some years back when I still read it explaining how the UK had a lack of indian cooks and how Eastern Europeans can't into making Chicken VIndaloo, and of course it was Indian restaurant owners that were bitching and moaning and demanding more visas for low-skilled Indian workers.
To top it all off, that particular "Indian" quisine was allegedly just a British twist on existing Indian food, turning it into glorified junkfood, not really high quisine, and anyone who can flip burgers or work at KFC should be able to make that stuff easily.
First, I swapped up H2 visas (unskilled labor) with H1-B ones (for the tech workers).

So to answer your second point first: people's preference for hiring similar people does exist for both immigrant and non-immigrants, and is mostly irrelevant to me.

So to answer your first points: a) the pennies on the dollar isn't accurate for H1-B (skilled labor gets employed for less, but not 90% less), and b) I don't care. That's not for me to decide: that for them to decide. Look, as a libertarian I find it morally wrong to interfere with such a relationship, even if it would help the majority of people (which I doubt).

You also ignore the benefits of low costs: artificially high costs of employment don't lead to long term success. The business instead gets outcompeted by foreign competition (again, see Detroit) or it automates the jobs away instead.

How well has that worked out for the more cosmopolitan areas, like London, the US and Canada coastal areas, and the like?
Declining wages plus increases in people leading to rent and price inflation for example.
The coastal area's aren't experiencing price inflation because of that (at least in the US, IDK about the rest). They have an excess of liberals who like rent control, zoning, etc, all of which cause housing shortages. It's nearly impossible to build in major California cities, for example. Note that once you get further south, that problem ceases to exist generally, even on the southern coast, as building is allowed.

The other contributing factor is high inflation encouraging people to buy as soon as possible.
Third world shitholes will stay shitholes until there is no organic pressure from inside to make them change IMHO.
In fact some dictators, kleptocrats and oligarchies are glad to push out some of their best and brightest, as well as some of their worse off, into the west.
That decreases the social pressure for change and boosts remittances that they can use to reward their cronies as well as bribe/coerce the rest of the population to stay silent and inert.
Another thing a libertarian doesn't worry about. Look, no one has an obligation to stay in a shithole of a country. It sucks for the people still there, but forcing someone to stay (or go) would be wrong.

Also, cost cutting is actually a vital way things improve economically. The stagnation and protectionism you suggest will lead to a lot of problems long term, as shown in both when Detroit was beaten by Japan, and when the US Shipping industry died cause of the Jones act. If there's no reason to be competitive, eventually you get out competed to such an extent that people find ways around it and then your company goes to shit. Now that's not a moral argument, just an economic one, but it is definitely one any libertarian would raise.
[/ QUOTE]
Don't think you finished what you intended to do here.

Libertarians are as detached from reality as Marxists.

The fundamental contradiction of libertarianism being 'freedom as an ideology' is that, like Communism, any 'Libertarian' government would have to use significant force to 'enforce' its Libertarianism on an unwilling populace.

For example, when it comes to immigration, a government's responsibility is not to allow free trade in order to maximize global welfare. A government's responsibility is to its people, not to foreigners.

If those people want to limit foreign immigration, then it becomes the governments responsibility to limit foreign immigration.
Yeah, no. You fundamentally don't seem to understand how force works. The government wouldn't stop immigration. That's specifically not using force against anyone.

On top of that, libertarianism is against aggression, not force, to be clear. So if citizens decided to murder immigrants (or anyone else), the resulting force wouldn't be aggression, and thus fine.

But also, through private property rights exercised correctly (such as covenant communities), a community could decide to keep out any immigrant they didn't like.




Again, I'm not full "Open the borders now" libertarian, and very much an American nationalist because of the large amount of freedom it offers people. Before even considering allowing mass immigration, we'd need to cut the welfare state down (preferably to nothing, but that's even less likely). Then I'd be for more immigration of low skilled people. Until then, I'd only like refugee's from communism and high skilled people in, because they demonstrably help America, either culturally (re-shoring America's anti-communist country is necessary) or economically.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
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Osaul
Thought I fixed everything, can you reload and check if you can see my post ok?
Got it, I'll reply to that bit here:
Here I must disagree, lack of enough workers is actually a driving force for technological advancement and more flexibility in the job markets.
Being a scarce resource also gives the individual more bargaining power and thus more freedom.

Keep in mind that the Romans were pretty stagnant thanks to having slaves, if they had tighter jobs markets they might have managed to develop steam, wind and river power.

Windmills, for example, only started appearing in Europe only after the fall of the Roman empire despite Greeks and Romans playing around with the idea centuries before.

Similarly, the various plagues that ravaged Europe forced land reforms, higher salaries, improvements in agriculture and the following boom pushed it out of the Dark Ages.

Import cheap labor is not innovation, it is the enemy of innovation, just like hiring a few corporate bureaucrats to posture and introduce more idiotic "procedures" and push for more micro-managerial bullshit and layoffs is IMHO just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Here is one example from my RL experience, ticketing systems.

I consistently saw people ignoring root causes or persistent non-issues that generated bullshit alerts so that said alerts could generate incident tickets, so that they could assign them to themselves, and when they auto-closed they could point to the stats and say "look, me do much work".
Frankly, the entire idea of working towards time utilization instead of outcomes is utter bullshit, but modern corpo bureaucracy loves it, and all of the numerous levels of feckless corpo parasites just eat all that shit up.
Yes, cheap labor isn't innovation, I totally agree with that. (Also agree with your complaint of bureaucracy but that's beyond scope here).

But the thing is, what your advocating for is an artificial limitation on labor to drive up prices. This is a problem, as it leads to being outcompeted by foreign countries who just employ the cheap labor there, then export (this famously happened to Detroit as the motor city couldn't keep up with Japan, the union labor was no help here). On top of that, cheaper prices are something that benefits everyone in the society, not just the people who work in a particular sector, so what you are advocating is another special interest (one which I should selfishly be all for, as it would make my work much more valuable).

But ultimately, to a libertarian, this isn't an argument about what is best for society. A libertarian doesn't really give a shit. This is an individualistic moral argument: it's wrong to use violence to stop two adults from engaging in consensual business. That's really the core difference between a libertarian vs most other political philosophies: it's based on individual morality instead of social good.

You'll see a lot of libertarians make social good arguments, and that's because that's how we can convince non-libertarians to follow libertarian policy goals for non-libertarian reasons. But a cynic's view, it's a marketing ploy, just like when a person says that following Jesus will solve your problems. Yes, X (libertarian policy or following Jesus) will solve your problem, but the reason to do X is because doing X is morally good, not because X will solve your problem. Even if X doesn't solve your problem, it's still the right thing to do.

tl;dr: Skilled immigrants are good for society, but also that's irrelevant as stopping two people from doing business is almost always wrong.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
First, I would like to make a slight detour here to address cars and corpo bureaucracy.
Regarding bureaucracy and people scarcity, it is my opinion that ultimately higher labor costs can IMHO force an organization to become more efficient and innovative.
Another country that managed to smash US car production is Germany, and their unit labor costs are pretty high and ultimately they have not been all that good at importing workers or outsourcing their manufacturing and supply chains as much as the USA has.

Japan is now a high income country, with very low immigration that somehow still manages to out-compete the USA as well as cheaper producers, like China and Korea.
The Koreans, despite all their efforts to push themselves into the car market are still rather meh, with Kia iirc being their only successful, surviving car manufacturer.
The opinion on "the street" around me is, "they suck ass".In fact they are hated even more than the "Kitty, pine, pussy" French cars. 😂 (Local joke.)

So, IMHO there just might be more to the story than cheap manufacturing labor.
Like for example your inefficient companies getting too many bailouts because of special interest pressure.
TBH I had a friend that had to deal with the IT of one of your car manufacturers, and he was pulling his hair out, they were such a massive mess.
But to be honest, I am very far from the car business, most of my knowledge comes from the 3 main groups of fanboys around me, one says buy Japanese, namely Toyota, because of efficiency, the other two are Audi and BMW afficeinados that IMHO compensate for something.

But as bad as our cars might be here in Europe, and as protected as our labor force, no one is lining up to buy US cars.
Well, maybe a few fords.

When I had to go to the UK the situation was the same, most of their cars were German or French, with Tesla being something a bunch of people I had to deal with in conversations because of alleged lower costs related to green taxes and fuel.

Also, I believe that what really launched Japanese cars in the west was their fuel efficiency when gas prices spiked up during the oil embargo.
Original Japanese cars were, according to one documentary I saw, utter crap, but they managed to improve significantly.

Now, back to your other points about libertarianism.
I would say that the ideology and the sentiment are both admirable, and that we hit the good old problem that people could do truly wonderful things, if only they weren't people.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
You can't have libertarianism when communism exists and you have subversive barbarians (and I count left leaning Europeans in this category so chill. ) who don't respect your culture or your people.

Tribe is important. The individual shines best when its competing within a group, against another group for the right to pass on its genetic material.

It is why we exist.

Libertarianism dropped moral objectivism for Randyian autism and when that happened it became incongruent with anything but cultural genocide by national suicide.

There are certain individuals and ideologies that cannot exist in your world in order to have a truly Libertarian country. Mauricio Macri found that out the hard way when his NAP nonsense got his country seized from him and they had to rig an entire presidential election to keep a South American style fascist party out and the Marxist in.

The lolberts didn't even win enough to be rigged out Trump style. NOS did..
 
I guess my personal attraction toward it is less its own righteousness and more my disillusion with the alternatives. I've gotten to the point where I would rather be in league with cuthroats and barbarians than so called "Saints" a cuthroat will take your property and potentially your life, but when asked why he is at least upfront and says "I don't like you" or "You have what I want." at some point is lust may be satiated, and if not at least he makes it clear where he stands and if you demand it back he will go. "You can have if you can take it from me."

A saint will do all those atrocities as the criminal but when asked he will claim it's due to some sort of divine given right or some means to a greater good. He will never be satiated as his clear conscience says that he has a right to everything because of his righteousness and when you ask him why he did these things to you he will say "because justice/righteousness demanded it." or "This is for the betterment of all. It was wrong for you to have this, and if you really cared about being good, you'd thank me/us for freeing you of this wicked burden."

it's becoming increasingly clear to me that all will die by the sword eventually. Even those who do not live bythe sword will die upon it. Most will die by the sword of their "Protectors" because they have a false sense of security. Frankly for myself I'd rather fall by the sword of my enemies, rather than be stabbed in the back by someone claiming to be my "Protector"
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I guess my personal attraction toward it is less its own righteousness and more my disillusion with the alternatives. I've gotten to the point where I would rather be in league with cuthroats and barbarians than so called "Saints" a cuthroat will take your property and potentially your life, but when asked why he is at least upfront and says "I don't like you" or "You have what I want." at some point is lust may be satiated, and if not at least he makes it clear where he stands and if you demand it back he will go. "You can have if you can take it from me."

A saint will do all those atrocities as the criminal but when asked he will claim it's due to some sort of divine given right or some means to a greater good. He will never be satiated as his clear conscience says that he has a right to everything because of his righteousness and when you ask him why he did these things to you he will say "because justice/righteousness demanded it." or "This is for the betterment of all. It was wrong for you to have this, and if you really cared about being good, you'd thank me/us for freeing you of this wicked burden."

it's becoming increasingly clear to me that all will die by the sword eventually. Even those who do not live bythe sword will die upon it. Most will die by the sword of their "Protectors" because they have a false sense of security. Frankly for myself I'd rather fall by the sword of my enemies, rather than be stabbed in the back by someone claiming to be my "Protector"
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated: but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. . . . This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be ‘cured’ against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. -C.S. Lewis
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
The Foundation for Economic Education (a heavily libertarian YouTube channel) put out a video a few days ago, about Miyazaki's films and their pacifistic messaging. The title of the video, is very telling.



Having watched it, the video has left me with a question.

Do libs understand anything about military matters? Because their IQ just drops through the floor whenever the topic comes up and proves to me that they should kept as far away from soldiering (and defence spending) as possible.
 

Abhorsen

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Do libs understand anything about military matters? Because their IQ just drops through the floor whenever the topic comes up and proves to me that they should kept as far away from soldiering (and defence spending) as possible.
No, we do understand things about military matters. The whole point of the video is that war, even a just war, is absolutely awful and causes otherwise normal people to do horrific things. Basically, that 'humanitarian wars' aren't, because war is always awful.

The one quibble I have is with his one line critique of the Korean war, but that's about it.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
The Foundation for Economic Education (a heavily libertarian YouTube channel) put out a video a few days ago, about Miyazaki's films and their pacifistic messaging. The title of the video, is very telling.



Having watched it, the video has left me with a question.

Do libs understand anything about military matters? Because their IQ just drops through the floor whenever the topic comes up and proves to me that they should kept as far away from soldiering (and defence spending) as possible.

They do make perfectly reasonable points... but miss a whole lot of ones less related to very "here and now" of recent media narratives instead of considering the issue in full.
You can embrace the ideas proposed by even most reasonable pacifists all you want as your country. But in no way, shape or form it will guarantee that you will avoid war. If anything, its the opposite.
The Romans had the other half of the equation. Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Just because you don't want war, doesn't mean no one else will, and if you are unprepared for war, mentally or materially, that only makes those who think of it want war with you more, in expectation of a relatively easy victory. As the current case of Russia, or slightly earlier ISIL show, even trade and prosperity coming from peace only go so far, when not all cultures are as materialistic as current western one, and as such are perfectly willing to start wars despite the massive trade sanctions that it will result in. That's where the dreams of pacifists die. Other societies that disagree with them, oh the irony. Brought down to the same level as all the other ideas for a perfect world.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
That's where the dreams of pacifists die. Other societies that disagree with them, oh the irony. Brought down to the same level as all the other ideas for a perfect world.

Pacifists are the stepping stones of more martial societies on the road to empire. The only form of pacifism I have the remotest respect for is armed neutrality, the NAP given teeth (essentially militaristic liberals). As I understand it, that ideology is built around the term "don't step on me, or I will kill you."
 

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