What If? Kingdoms of Westeros replaced by their RL counterparts

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
How would War of the Five Kings happen roughly if kingdoms of Westeros were replaced by their 15th century equivalents, as follows:
North = Scotland
Iron Islands = Norway
Riverlands = Germany / Holy Roman Empire
Vale = Switzerland
Westerlands = England
Reach = France
Stormlands = Wales
Dorne = Spain

Relative sizes are kept, but Westeros is reduced so as to fit said kingdoms in a more realistic way, if necessary.
 
Westeros is like what, fifty times the size of the area of these kingdoms? I think we'll need more to go on than "reduced" and "fit realistically".
 
Westeros is like what, fifty times the size of the area of these kingdoms? I think we'll need more to go on than "reduced" and "fit realistically".

Basically the shape of kingdoms remains as close to original as possible, while surface areas are reduced to be as close to Real World kingdoms that came into their place as possible.

Or if that is too problematic, option B) would be that Seven Kingdoms merely receive socioeconomic, political etc. situation and "stats" from said kingdoms, but else geography remains completely unchanged.
 
How would War of the Five Kings happen roughly if kingdoms of Westeros were replaced by their 15th century equivalents, as follows:
North = Scotland
Iron Islands = Norway
Riverlands = Germany / Holy Roman Empire
Vale = Switzerland
Westerlands = England
Reach = France
Stormlands = Wales
Dorne = Spain

Relative sizes are kept, but Westeros is reduced so as to fit said kingdoms in a more realistic way, if necessary.
So I'm still somewhat confused as to what you're asking, they're all in a war corresponding to their Westerosi equivalents? Are we to assume... the King of Scotland has just been executed for calling the Prince of England an inbred bastard? Is Wales invading England because the King of Wales has a claim? Is the queen of Scotland from Switzerland?

I need to know the basis for this conflict.
 
So I'm still somewhat confused as to what you're asking, they're all in a war corresponding to their Westerosi equivalents? Are we to assume... the King of Scotland has just been executed for calling the Prince of England an inbred bastard? Is Wales invading England because the King of Wales has a claim? Is the queen of Scotland from Switzerland?

I need to know the basis for this conflict.

Basically, yes.
 
How would War of the Five Kings happen roughly if kingdoms of Westeros were replaced by their 15th century equivalents, as follows:
North = Scotland
Iron Islands = Norway
Riverlands = Germany / Holy Roman Empire
Vale = Switzerland
Westerlands = England
Reach = France
Stormlands = Wales
Dorne = Spain

Relative sizes are kept, but Westeros is reduced so as to fit said kingdoms in a more realistic way, if necessary.

Since Scotland lacked good archers,they would lost quickly to England,unless they manage to ambush them.
Just like any battle in OTL.
Vale/Switzeland had only good light infrantry,which means,that archers would massacre them,too./in open field,at least/
Joeffrey would win with or withour Reach,since french knight was good only for dying from english arrows.

Sorry,but in 15th reality,those with good archers with longbows would always win.

Till Dany with her mongols and janissaries would come.Both formation would destroy archers even without dragons.
 
Since Scotland lacked good archers,they would lost quickly to England,unless they manage to ambush them.
Just like any battle in OTL.

That depends on how good armour was. Archers would slaughter light infantry, but proper plate armour (even just munitions armour) would make pikemen more-or-less invulnerable to missiles - unless they got hit in the face or other unarmoured portions of the body. And keep in mind that even unarmoured infantry utilizing muskets often decided battles with cold steel (especially Swedes under Charles XI, XII and XII decided battles through Ga Pa, which utilized pike-and-bayonet charge as its main offensive tactic).

Reason why Scots often lost to England was that circular schiltron was incapable of offensive action, which - combined with English cavalry superiority - meant that they lacked any offensive capability. And you cannot win a battle just defending. This is why Scots lost Falkirk - but do note that it took a combination of missile bombardment, foot assault and a cavalry charge to defeat Scottish schiltron. But they eventually (1307.) developed rectillinear schiltron. It was utilized in some 8 battles I counted (Glen Tool, Bannockburn, Myton, Dupplin Moor, Culblean, Halidon Hill, Neville's Cross, Otterburn), and 5 of those were Scottish victory. In two of battles Scotland lost, English were assisted Scottish rebels utilizing schiltrons of their own. This leaves only one battle where schiltron was actually defeated by an army utilizing archers with no schiltron of its own.

I do not think an 5-1 losing record is a good recommendation for effectiveness of the longbowmen - especially since question here is late 15th century, which means that Scots should have access to much better armour (whereas English were rather lagging behind continental powers in terms of implementation of gunpowder weapons). If anything, heavy cavalry will be more dangerous to Scottish pikemen in this scenario than longbowmen will.

If anything, heavy cavalry was far more effective against pike squares than longbowmen were (as long as pikemen were armoured). As for longbows versus cavalry, at Crecy and Agincourt both the battle was decided in melee - see below. But cavalry requires open terrain with no obstacles to be truly effective.

Vale/Switzeland had only good light infrantry,which means,that archers would massacre them,too./in open field,at least/

Possibly. Swiss pikemen often utilized armour, but I am not certain when exactly they started using half-plate en masse.

Joeffrey would win with or withour Reach,since french knight was good only for dying from english arrows.

Which is why everybody knows English won the 100 years war, right? Oh, wait... Anyway:

French defeats against English longbowmen always came down to three factors: terrain, terrain, and terrain. At all three famous English victories (Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt), English had managed to goad the French into attacking a prepared defensive position over a narrow front. And in at least one of those, they also had the benefit of captured French battle plan.

Crecy: French cavalry was thrown into disarray by their clash with their own retreating crossbowmen (who were thrown against English without half their equipment), and had to charge over muddy ground, up the hill and over pits dug by the English, all of it on horses which had no protection against English arrows, being without barding. Even so, charge was eventually defeated by English dismounted men-at-arms in melee. Eventually they retreated, and in the morning both the French army and arriving reinforcements were routed by English heavy cavalry in a charge.

Poitiers: French again were riding unarmoured horses, and thus a direct attack against longbowmen (who were again in a fortified position) proved to be a disaster. French infantry was repelled in hand-to-hand combat and broke after attacked in the flank by English heavy cavalry.

Agincourt: French heavy cavalry charged only after English were already deployed behind their protective stakes, and were unable to outflank them due to dense woodland to the sides. Horses also wore head armour only, and were again attacking over muddy terrain.

Overall, the "longbowmen beat everyone" is nothing but a myth. If heavy cavalry was so ineffective against disciplined infantry, and longbowmen in particular, it would not have been used for so long: I do not think the sheer expense of maintaining heavy cavalry corps is truly appreciated nowadays. And knights' social standing was a direct result of their effectiveness on the battlefield; the moment knightly heavy cavalry became useless, knights started disappearing.

At any rate, Westerosi heavy cavalry seems to utilize full barding much more regularly than it was used historically, thus making them basically invulnerable to enemy missile fire.

Sorry,but in 15th reality,those with good archers with longbows would always win.

Wrong, as explained above in detail.

Till Dany with her mongols and janissaries would come.Both formation would destroy archers even without dragons.

Keep in mind that:
a) Mongols LOST against Western-style knightly armies whenever the two met in open battle; their opening successes in Central Europe were against predominantly light cavalry armies
b) Dothraki are utterly incompetent compared to Mongols (no heavy cavalry, no engineers, no command and control)
c) Janissaries were only one element of a combined-arms force... which BTW heavily depended on cavalry (light and heavy cavalry both) for its successes
d) Unsullied are nothing like Janissaries, but are rather more akin to discount Spartans... or, rather, Sumeran phalanx. Even Westerosi militiaries should be capable of wiping the floor with them, and those are nowhere near to high-end of actual 15th century armies such as French Compagnies d'Ordonnance, tactically speaking.
 
Sorry,but in 15th reality,those with good archers with longbows would always win.
The fuck you say? The Longbow was not as dominant as you seem to believe. You forget that the most dramatic use of the Longbow in history needed the enemy force to be pinned unmounted in a mud pit hedged in by stakes and even after the archers expended literally all their ammunition most of the casualties were still caused via the archers and men at arms having to literally march down the hill and bash the wounded knights to death with hammers.
 
That depends on how good armour was. Archers would slaughter light infantry, but proper plate armour (even just munitions armour) would make pikemen more-or-less invulnerable to missiles - unless they got hit in the face or other unarmoured portions of the body. And keep in mind that even unarmoured infantry utilizing muskets often decided battles with cold steel (especially Swedes under Charles XI, XII and XII decided battles through Ga Pa, which utilized pike-and-bayonet charge as its main offensive tactic).

Reason why Scots often lost to England was that circular schiltron was incapable of offensive action, which - combined with English cavalry superiority - meant that they lacked any offensive capability. And you cannot win a battle just defending. This is why Scots lost Falkirk - but do note that it took a combination of missile bombardment, foot assault and a cavalry charge to defeat Scottish schiltron. But they eventually (1307.) developed rectillinear schiltron. It was utilized in some 8 battles I counted (Glen Tool, Bannockburn, Myton, Dupplin Moor, Culblean, Halidon Hill, Neville's Cross, Otterburn), and 5 of those were Scottish victory. In two of battles Scotland lost, English were assisted Scottish rebels utilizing schiltrons of their own. This leaves only one battle where schiltron was actually defeated by an army utilizing archers with no schiltron of its own.

I do not think an 5-1 losing record is a good recommendation for effectiveness of the longbowmen - especially since question here is late 15th century, which means that Scots should have access to much better armour (whereas English were rather lagging behind continental powers in terms of implementation of gunpowder weapons). If anything, heavy cavalry will be more dangerous to Scottish pikemen in this scenario than longbowmen will.

If anything, heavy cavalry was far more effective against pike squares than longbowmen were (as long as pikemen were armoured). As for longbows versus cavalry, at Crecy and Agincourt both the battle was decided in melee - see below. But cavalry requires open terrain with no obstacles to be truly effective.



Possibly. Swiss pikemen often utilized armour, but I am not certain when exactly they started using half-plate en masse.



Which is why everybody knows English won the 100 years war, right? Oh, wait... Anyway:

French defeats against English longbowmen always came down to three factors: terrain, terrain, and terrain. At all three famous English victories (Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt), English had managed to goad the French into attacking a prepared defensive position over a narrow front. And in at least one of those, they also had the benefit of captured French battle plan.

Crecy: French cavalry was thrown into disarray by their clash with their own retreating crossbowmen (who were thrown against English without half their equipment), and had to charge over muddy ground, up the hill and over pits dug by the English, all of it on horses which had no protection against English arrows, being without barding. Even so, charge was eventually defeated by English dismounted men-at-arms in melee. Eventually they retreated, and in the morning both the French army and arriving reinforcements were routed by English heavy cavalry in a charge.

Poitiers: French again were riding unarmoured horses, and thus a direct attack against longbowmen (who were again in a fortified position) proved to be a disaster. French infantry was repelled in hand-to-hand combat and broke after attacked in the flank by English heavy cavalry.

Agincourt: French heavy cavalry charged only after English were already deployed behind their protective stakes, and were unable to outflank them due to dense woodland to the sides. Horses also wore head armour only, and were again attacking over muddy terrain.

Overall, the "longbowmen beat everyone" is nothing but a myth. If heavy cavalry was so ineffective against disciplined infantry, and longbowmen in particular, it would not have been used for so long: I do not think the sheer expense of maintaining heavy cavalry corps is truly appreciated nowadays. And knights' social standing was a direct result of their effectiveness on the battlefield; the moment knightly heavy cavalry became useless, knights started disappearing.

At any rate, Westerosi heavy cavalry seems to utilize full barding much more regularly than it was used historically, thus making them basically invulnerable to enemy missile fire.



Wrong, as explained above in detail.



Keep in mind that:
a) Mongols LOST against Western-style knightly armies whenever the two met in open battle; their opening successes in Central Europe were against predominantly light cavalry armies
b) Dothraki are utterly incompetent compared to Mongols (no heavy cavalry, no engineers, no command and control)
c) Janissaries were only one element of a combined-arms force... which BTW heavily depended on cavalry (light and heavy cavalry both) for its successes
d) Unsullied are nothing like Janissaries, but are rather more akin to discount Spartans... or, rather, Sumeran phalanx. Even Westerosi militiaries should be capable of wiping the floor with them, and those are nowhere near to high-end of actual 15th century armies such as French Compagnies d'Ordonnance, tactically speaking.

1.You are right about Scots.
2.Swiss was always light infrantry - thus whu Lancknecht win every battle when swiss could not ambush them.
3.You are right,longbows needs good terrain to win.
4.Heavy calvary with bearded horses would be efficient,and even without them they win if they find archers in open terrain.
You are right here,too.
5.If Westeros was replaced,then Dany would get replacment,too - Mongols and eunuch Spartans.
 
5.If Westeros was replaced,then Dany would get replacment,too - Mongols and eunuch Spartans.

Agreed. But closest replacements would be Mongols and Spartans, neither of which can stand up to 15th century armies.
 
Agreed. But closest replacements would be Mongols and Spartans, neither of which can stand up to 15th century armies.

I agree about eunuch Spartans - all they could do would show how bravely they die.
But mongols was aother animal - in 13th century they operated in tumans made from 6.000 horse archers and 4.000 heavy calvary each,they had 500 siege infrantry with siege engineers/all mounted,of course/ and acted as combined arms.
They would still kick asses.
Especially if they use fake spartans as center of their formation and let them hold ground and die.Mongols would win on the flanks before spartans break.

P.S Reach replacemented by France would still had France problems - bad commanders.So,their good heavy calvary would still be vasted.
Vale as Swiss - Swiss they had light infrantry,becouse they relied on speed.They marched fast to attack enemy when they were no ready,and during battle they sometimes not marched,but run fast to get quickly to enemy.

They were lightly armed becouse of their tactic,not lack of armour.And it worked against both knights and english archers - Burgundy armies was made from them - but falied against heavy pikeman/Landsknechts/ supported by missile troops/crossbowas,arqebuses/
 
I agree about eunuch Spartans - all they could do would show how bravely they die.
But mongols was aother animal - in 13th century they operated in tumans made from 6.000 horse archers and 4.000 heavy calvary each,they had 500 siege infrantry with siege engineers/all mounted,of course/ and acted as combined arms.
They would still kick asses.
Especially if they use fake spartans as center of their formation and let them hold ground and die.Mongols would win on the flanks before spartans break.

P.S Reach replacemented by France would still had France problems - bad commanders.So,their good heavy calvary would still be vasted.
Vale as Swiss - Swiss they had light infrantry,becouse they relied on speed.They marched fast to attack enemy when they were no ready,and during battle they sometimes not marched,but run fast to get quickly to enemy.

They were lightly armed becouse of their tactic,not lack of armour.And it worked against both knights and english archers - Burgundy armies was made from them - but falied against heavy pikeman/Landsknechts/ supported by missile troops/crossbowas,arqebuses/

Actually, when Mongols went up against Western-style feudal armies, they got defeated rather soundly. I have an overview as part of my post about the Dothraki, but in short: Mongols are overrated. Their tumans of 10 000 cavalry had to have up to 100 000 horses in order to maintain their advantage in mobility over feudal armies, which made them incapable of operating anywhere west of Hungary. Even in Hungary, they ran out of food rather rapidly, in both invasions.

In the first invasion, Mongols quickly and soundly defeated Hungarian forces which consisted of light infantry and light cavalry. They also sacked many cities and castles, thanks to those being fortified with - at best - a wooden pallisade. After the invasion, Hungary reorganized military on feudal model, introduced crossbowmen and heavy cavalry, and replaced wooden fortifications with ones of stone.

In the second invasion, Hungary had military based around feudal heavy cavalry, as well as heavy infantry and large numbers of mercenary crossbowmen. So when Mongols came, Hungarians opted not to try and match Mongols in mobility (where Mongols had the advantage), but rather retreated to their castles while burning the countryside. Mongol forces which separated from the main body for purposes of foraging and scouting were quickly defeated with sorties from those same castles. Talabuga's main army was eventually defeated in a field battle in Western Transylvania, and Nogai's army was also destroyed - again in the field - not long after.

And the system described above, which so soundly defeated the Mongols, was actually inferior to the military system of feudal banderia, and eventually standing professional army + feudal banderia, which Hungary developed in order to cope with the - much more serious and longer-lasting - Ottoman threat. Banderial system in Hungary was similar to the system of livery and maintenance in England: in both systems, great magnates of landed aristocracy raised what were essentially private armies and lended them to the Crown. While English system was somewhat more professional, both resulted in armies comprised of, in essence, long-time professional soldiers. Meanwhile, the standing army of full-time professionals which Hungary also employed during reign of Matthias Corvinus also has equivalent in the Western Europe: French Compagnies d'Ordonnance, while numerically weaker than the Black Army (24 000 men in 1483., compared to Black Army's 28 000 men in 1485.), were of a similar model, and were just as effective.

All of this suggests that Mongol + Spartan army would lose in a protracted campaign 100% of the time, and also in a pitched battle some 90% of the time.

Regarding French, what you wrote is true... for 14th and early 15th century France. Beyond Agincourt, Crecy and Poitiers, French also displayed extreme incompetence in Battle of Nicopolis, where premature charge by French knights also forced the rest of the allied army into a premature assault. The result was a crushing defeat. It is notable perhaps that Ottomans had used tactics similar to those of English in France, deploying infantry behind a field of stakes to blunt and defeat Western cavalry charge; similarly notable is the fact that the French cavalry charge succeeded in penetrating deep into Ottoman formation, only to be crushed by Ottoman cavalry countercharge. This suggests that Hungarian plan of light cavalry skirmishing followed by the heavy cavalry charge had a good chance of being successful.

Now, I noticed that I failed to specify whether it is early 15th century or late 15th century. Early 15th century would mean no professional army. However, as I did not specify anything, most logical choice would be mid-15th century, that is 1450. And this in turn means that Compagnies d'Ordonnance exist already for a decade, and French military system had been significantly modified and brushed up by their experiences against the English. This means fully professional standing army with a developed system of combined-arms operations. Link and link.
 
Actually, when Mongols went up against Western-style feudal armies, they got defeated rather soundly. I have an overview as part of my post about the Dothraki, but in short: Mongols are overrated. Their tumans of 10 000 cavalry had to have up to 100 000 horses in order to maintain their advantage in mobility over feudal armies, which made them incapable of operating anywhere west of Hungary. Even in Hungary, they ran out of food rather rapidly, in both invasions.

In the first invasion, Mongols quickly and soundly defeated Hungarian forces which consisted of light infantry and light cavalry. They also sacked many cities and castles, thanks to those being fortified with - at best - a wooden pallisade. After the invasion, Hungary reorganized military on feudal model, introduced crossbowmen and heavy cavalry, and replaced wooden fortifications with ones of stone.

In the second invasion, Hungary had military based around feudal heavy cavalry, as well as heavy infantry and large numbers of mercenary crossbowmen. So when Mongols came, Hungarians opted not to try and match Mongols in mobility (where Mongols had the advantage), but rather retreated to their castles while burning the countryside. Mongol forces which separated from the main body for purposes of foraging and scouting were quickly defeated with sorties from those same castles. Talabuga's main army was eventually defeated in a field battle in Western Transylvania, and Nogai's army was also destroyed - again in the field - not long after.

And the system described above, which so soundly defeated the Mongols, was actually inferior to the military system of feudal banderia, and eventually standing professional army + feudal banderia, which Hungary developed in order to cope with the - much more serious and longer-lasting - Ottoman threat. Banderial system in Hungary was similar to the system of livery and maintenance in England: in both systems, great magnates of landed aristocracy raised what were essentially private armies and lended them to the Crown. While English system was somewhat more professional, both resulted in armies comprised of, in essence, long-time professional soldiers. Meanwhile, the standing army of full-time professionals which Hungary also employed during reign of Matthias Corvinus also has equivalent in the Western Europe: French Compagnies d'Ordonnance, while numerically weaker than the Black Army (24 000 men in 1483., compared to Black Army's 28 000 men in 1485.), were of a similar model, and were just as effective.

All of this suggests that Mongol + Spartan army would lose in a protracted campaign 100% of the time, and also in a pitched battle some 90% of the time.

Regarding French, what you wrote is true... for 14th and early 15th century France. Beyond Agincourt, Crecy and Poitiers, French also displayed extreme incompetence in Battle of Nicopolis, where premature charge by French knights also forced the rest of the allied army into a premature assault. The result was a crushing defeat. It is notable perhaps that Ottomans had used tactics similar to those of English in France, deploying infantry behind a field of stakes to blunt and defeat Western cavalry charge; similarly notable is the fact that the French cavalry charge succeeded in penetrating deep into Ottoman formation, only to be crushed by Ottoman cavalry countercharge. This suggests that Hungarian plan of light cavalry skirmishing followed by the heavy cavalry charge had a good chance of being successful.

Now, I noticed that I failed to specify whether it is early 15th century or late 15th century. Early 15th century would mean no professional army. However, as I did not specify anything, most logical choice would be mid-15th century, that is 1450. And this in turn means that Compagnies d'Ordonnance exist already for a decade, and French military system had been significantly modified and brushed up by their experiences against the English. This means fully professional standing army with a developed system of combined-arms operations. Link and link.
thanks.
They had some standing infrantry about 1450,too,but all i knew about them is that Landknechts defeated them easily.
 
Stormlands are Wales? Does that mean there is a sheep somewhere grinding its teeth?

+1 for humor. On the other hand, I was generally given to understand they were more Germany/Christian Spain (holding the line against the Muslims/Dornish) -Riverlander analogue was Northern France (Brittany/Normandy) I believe, Reach was the rest. (Riverlands only gets compared to Germany on account of being in between everyone else)

Since Scotland lacked good archers,they would lost quickly to England,unless they manage to ambush them.

Not necessarily. Again, it comes down to the French being incredibly inept at key points in the HYW. And even then England ultimately lost.

But if we are using the HRE analogue for the Riverlands...England is facing Wales (not that big an issue by itself but by virtue of already being on Great Britain it’s a threat they have to take seriously), Scotland (ditto, especially if they link up with the Welsh), Germany/HRE (who if they do indeed throw in are going to be a serious threat if they can get past the RN), and France, who are also going to be busy tying up the RN and could force their way through. Same with Spain/Dorne (I’m assuming they still have their historical beef with the Lannisters?)...England can’t take on all of them at once. The Norwegians...well, if Balon Greyjoy decides to Balon Greyjoy he’s fucked again, because it won’t be long before Scotland and the HRE (which at this point includes the Dutch and Italians in addition to the Germans and Austrians) finish up and turn their attention to him.

The bottom line is England is fucked. They just started a war (and presumably violated diplomatic immunity in the process) that brings every heavy hitter in the region into play.
**Insert Londo Mollari’s comment about fighting a war on 12 fronts here**
 
2.Swiss was always light infrantry - thus whu Lancknecht win every battle when swiss could not ambush them.
Pikes are generally considered the heaviest infantry in terms of "Heavy vs Light" classification, and the swiss were, as I recall, somewhat famous for the use of pikes.

Basically, yes.
So to sum up the situation then


The King of Scotland was loyal to the (Welsh) King of England, but when the English King dies he accuses the crown prince of being an inbred bastard and is executed and one of his children held hostage, causing the Scots to invade with the full support of the HRE. The Welsh Invade England on their own but refuse to ally with the HRE or Scotts, France also has a Welsh king, declares war on England but invades Wales to try to unify France and Wales before moving on to England. Norway, for whatever reason, is planning an invasion of Scotland despite the fact that their Prince is a high standing member of the Scottish court.
Spain is standing aloof and weighing it's options as to who to side with.
Switzerland has it's head up it's own asshole.


Is that all right? do I have my GOT history correct?
 
So to sum up the situation then


The King of Scotland was loyal to the (Welsh) King of England, but when the English King dies he accuses the crown prince of being an inbred bastard and is executed and one of his children held hostage, causing the Scots to invade with the full support of the HRE. The Welsh Invade England on their own but refuse to ally with the HRE or Scotts, France also has a Welsh king, declares war on England but invades Wales to try to unify France and Wales before moving on to England. Norway, for whatever reason, is planning an invasion of Scotland despite the fact that their Prince is a high standing member of the Scottish court.
Spain is standing aloof and weighing it's options as to who to side with.
Switzerland has it's head up it's own asshole.


Is that all right? do I have my GOT history correct?

Yes.
 
That depends on how good armour was. Archers would slaughter light infantry, but proper plate armour (even just munitions armour) would make pikemen more-or-less invulnerable to missiles - unless they got hit in the face or other unarmoured portions of the body. And keep in mind that even unarmoured infantry utilizing muskets often decided battles with cold steel (especially Swedes under Charles XI, XII and XII decided battles through Ga Pa, which utilized pike-and-bayonet charge as its main offensive tactic).
I would strongly check that point on plate armor rendering you virtually invulnerable to missile weapons. This is a tremendous advantage to be sure, but I think it is important to remember that all plate armor, from the least to most expensive, varied in thickness dramatically from location to location, and just because we've all seen those videos of breastplates shattering shafts across their Thicc busts doesn't mean that the other armor pieces would resist penetration as well. The odd imagery I just forced into your subconscious aside, I think it would be important to note how much of a soldier's body in terms of limbs, face, neck, etc would be without plate of any kind, and I'm sure this varied from unit to unit, place to place, time to time, but arrows can indeed deliver wounds through less resilient or extant forms of protection.

Now, you are absolutely right in the broad strokes of things, bows were not to my knowledge generally a producer of mass casualties or shock against enemies even with less sturdy than plate armor, and even for weapons more capable of shock and single hit casualties such as muskets, it was often the case that even this was not enough to completely remove a melee from the equation.


I do not think an 5-1 losing record is a good recommendation for effectiveness of the longbowmen - especially since question here is late 15th century, which means that Scots should have access to much better armour (whereas English were rather lagging behind continental powers in terms of implementation of gunpowder weapons). If anything, heavy cavalry will be more dangerous to Scottish pikemen in this scenario than longbowmen will.
Now, I like most people have the unfortunate case of having my historical knowledge of factions crudely blended across three or four centuries, but as I understand it the Longbow was strongly associated with the Welsh at least classically, would there be some relevant 15th century knock on effects of the Wales being essentially subtracted from England that would alter what we would otherwise consider to be the "english" army of that time?


Keep in mind that:
a) Mongols LOST against Western-style knightly armies whenever the two met in open battle; their opening successes in Central Europe were against predominantly light cavalry armies
b) Dothraki are utterly incompetent compared to Mongols (no heavy cavalry, no engineers, no command and control)
c) Janissaries were only one element of a combined-arms force... which BTW heavily depended on cavalry (light and heavy cavalry both) for its successes
d) Unsullied are nothing like Janissaries, but are rather more akin to discount Spartans... or, rather, Sumeran phalanx. Even Westerosi militiaries should be capable of wiping the floor with them, and those are nowhere near to high-end of actual 15th century armies such as French Compagnies d'Ordonnance, tactically speaking.
point by point
A) I think there is something to be said for the "tie breaker" or "late to the Battle Royale" effect, i.e. consider the environment they would be arriving into and who they might be fighting and what condition they might be in at the time, consider also the scale of the mongol empire and it's muster compared to the nations here, if they were to commit fully to an invasion. Though I am curious what battles in particular you're thinking of, I'd like to read about them.

B) You're correct, but it rings a little hollow as everything in GOT is incompetent compared to any real world equivalent, ranging from "somewhat" (the books) to "laughed off the battlefield in the bronze age"(the show). The Dothraki, regardless, are varyingly based on the Huns, the Mongols, and the great plains Native Americans, so technically any of those comparisons would fit in here, if you wanted them in the scenario.

C) Nothing to add here

D) I think it's easy to underestimate the Unsullied's "Fantasy Robot Soldier" advantage: no matter how little sense it makes even in context, the fact is that the Unsullied will march or fight or hula hoop or whatever you tell them to until their body shuts down from exhaustion and dehydration. You literally cannot buy that kind of morale. The Unsullied, as under armored and under sized as they would be, would still have an impact equal to many times their number on the battlefield simply because they would have infinite morale, just unflinchingly, endlessly stabbing away until they were each individually hacked to death. Now, this is an advantage that deflates with every battle insomuch as it's based on non reaction to exhaustion and casualties and Unsullied are essentially impossible to replace.
 
Pikes are generally considered the heaviest infantry in terms of "Heavy vs Light" classification, and the swiss were, as I recall, somewhat famous for the use of pikes.


So to sum up the situation then


The King of Scotland was loyal to the (Welsh) King of England, but when the English King dies he accuses the crown prince of being an inbred bastard and is executed and one of his children held hostage, causing the Scots to invade with the full support of the HRE. The Welsh Invade England on their own but refuse to ally with the HRE or Scotts, France also has a Welsh king, declares war on England but invades Wales to try to unify France and Wales before moving on to England. Norway, for whatever reason, is planning an invasion of Scotland despite the fact that their Prince is a high standing member of the Scottish court.
Spain is standing aloof and weighing it's options as to who to side with.
Switzerland has it's head up it's own asshole.


Is that all right? do I have my GOT history correct?

Swiss had pikeman,but without armour or with light one.Becouse they relied on speed.Thanks to catch their enemies unready they defeated Burgundy and won first battle with Landknechts,but lost all others - becouse Landsknetchs had half-plate and more missile troops.
As a result,later they copy Landsknechts.
For example - Swiss destroyed landsknecht and french infrantry during fast night attack in Nowarra battle/6.6.1513/ becouse landsknecht had no time to properly form ranks.
But when they tried the same during Marignano battle/13-14.9.1515/ they meet close ranks of Landsknechts supported by their missile troops,french guns and knights.half of them/15.000/ die there.
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top