Vyor
My influence grows!
... Isn't that overall true?
Ah yes, the selectively edited interview to make him look worse.
11:38 for the timestamp for the exact question.
Jordan Peterson or something whatever thread.
- Thread starter Comrade Clod
- Start date
... Isn't that overall true?
Ah yes, the selectively edited interview to make him look worse.
11:38 for the timestamp for the exact question.
ProphetOfTruth
Active member
No. They're not mutually exclusive ideas. Men and women can have both been "oppressed by the miserable conditions of human existence" and men can have also oppressed women.
Greengrass
Well-known member
Your own link shows that that exchange happened exactly as I said it did - Peterson asserted that that women in the workplace who wear makeup but don't want to be sexually harassed are eing hypocritical.
Vyor
My influence grows!
And women have oppressed men. It's not some magical thing.
No it doesn't.
Greengrass
Well-known member
You can go to the timestamp of 11:38 and see it - aside from the cut out of a slight stutter at the beginning of the question, the edited and unedited videos contain the same content. In response to the question if Peterson thinks that that women in the workplace who wear makeup but don't want to be sexually harassed are being hypocritical, Peterson says yes.
ProphetOfTruth
Active member
Not on the scale that men have oppressed women and certainly not in "Western civilization" as we know it.
Vyor
My influence grows!
Same content? The edited version completely removed his follow up statements.
Or I could say that men were more oppressed because they were expected to fight and die on behalf of other people, kings and queens alike.
ProphetOfTruth
Active member
Sure. But then that would broadly be examples of men oppressing other men, but you sure seem eager to move that goalpost.
Vyor
My influence grows!
So in the medieval age, how were women oppressed?
D
Deleted member 1
Guest
Throughout the Iron Age, men have held predominant roles in spirituality and governance. Filyani regard this as an inversion, but I will also acknowledge "oppression" is a complicated word, and layers of control, power, and consent always existed.
Vyor
My influence grows!
Oppression implies that the women were not complicit in things.
The disposable gender being the oppressors in the west = wut.
Seriously?
Tell me "how".
Seriously?
Tell me "how".
ProphetOfTruth
Active member
Still zipping around with that that goalpost, I see.
With few exceptions, women were largely treated as subordinate at best and objects at worst. The fact that men often suffered historically as well due to miserable conditions (and more often than not from the decisions of other men, not women) doesn't change the fact that history is rife with patriarchal dominance of women by men.
These are not, as I explained to you earlier, mutually exclusive notions: Men can (a) live generally miserable lives and (b) treat women like shit.
Pretty sure China has never been part of the west.
ProphetOfTruth
Active member
Pretty sure if you're suggesting China is the Westernmost country with a patriarchal history, I should redirect you to the Questing & Roleplay section where you're welcome play your fantasy scenario out to your heart's content.
Or you could provide concrete examples, instead of vaguely waving your hands while saying that oppression was a thing.
ShadowsOfParadox
Well-known member
personally I tend to find that a lot of "women were so oppressed" effectively has to ignore what is ACTUALLY being portrayed.
in my experience possibly the single best example of this is "Dream of the Red Chamber" while my class only read the abriged version every point the Professor said was "oppression of women" seemed to me to be evidence of the opposite.
Who was in charge of what the servants did? Women.
Who was in charge of where money was spent? Women.
Who was deciding who would marry whom? Women.
Who won every argument? Women.
What did men do? Work.
Of course, all the servants we actually SAW were also female so the idea of men as the sole breadwinners only really works for families rich and powerful enough that they can get a line to the Emperor. And even there, the Woman in charge of the servant's payroll used that power to make money via short term loans.
The ONE example we saw of infidelity on a man's part also ended with the man very sad indeed as his crush suicided due to his wife's "kindness" towards her.
If someone could effectively explain how Dream of the Red Chamber actually does show that women were oppressed instead of men and women doing different things I'd greatly appreciate it.
in my experience possibly the single best example of this is "Dream of the Red Chamber" while my class only read the abriged version every point the Professor said was "oppression of women" seemed to me to be evidence of the opposite.
Who was in charge of what the servants did? Women.
Who was in charge of where money was spent? Women.
Who was deciding who would marry whom? Women.
Who won every argument? Women.
What did men do? Work.
Of course, all the servants we actually SAW were also female so the idea of men as the sole breadwinners only really works for families rich and powerful enough that they can get a line to the Emperor. And even there, the Woman in charge of the servant's payroll used that power to make money via short term loans.
The ONE example we saw of infidelity on a man's part also ended with the man very sad indeed as his crush suicided due to his wife's "kindness" towards her.
If someone could effectively explain how Dream of the Red Chamber actually does show that women were oppressed instead of men and women doing different things I'd greatly appreciate it.
D
Deleted member 1
Guest
The oppressed are always complicit in their oppression, that doesn’t change the general trend. You are right however that most women likely were grateful for stability in a traditional society and so were not motivated to protest their subjection. Things can always get worse.
One derivative of my system of thought would be to observe that the women’s rights movement was an attempt to defend the sanctity of the hestia when male led democratic revolutions threatened it by destroying the traditional order.
In the 19th century, everyone knew that women were a great mass of support for God, Monarchy and Tradition. In the 1920s with female suffrage this became true. Women voted conservative, until the Eclipse. In ancient times under men, women would support the status quo because of the objective fact that the downward tendency of society would guarantee things got worse doing upheavals. This is a quite rational position.
Now, of course, with the end of traditional society, there’s nothing to lose, but the eclipse very specifically acted to destroy the moral sense of women.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Bernie Sanders decided to throw some shade on Elon Musk for spending money on space instead of helping the poor. Jordan Peterson stepped up with a counter. The twitterstorm is quite interesting given that normally the fanatic Berniebros can roll their opposition, but this time they're going up against equally enthusiastic fans of space exploration.
