Italian tanks get an ASB upgrade in 1940

[sillygoose]

What if ASBs take pity on the Italian army and replace all their tanks at the start of Italian entry in WW2 with the P26/40?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P26/40_tank

It would be nearly equivalent to the Panzer IV of 1942 with better armor but a worse gun, though that gun would be plenty for the primary Italian theater in North Africa. It would be plenty to take out the Matilda and IIRC even be enough against the M4 Sherman, but only within 500m.

All existing Italian tanks are upgraded to the P26/40 and all production converted to make these tanks and their chassis exclusively. If the Italians opt to turn them into an assault gun configuration they can later.

So this would mean for the invasion of Egypt they have a reliable and desertified tank that would be the best AFV in the world at that point, which actually would help with a lot of the problems they had since most of their tanks broke down long before seeing any combat in 1940 and were captured in repair depots by the British when they attacked. There would be several hundred in Libya too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maletti_Group

The two battalions had an establishment of 600 men, 72 tanks, 56 vehicles, 37 motorcycles and 76 trailers. The medium tanks reinforced the 324 L3/35 tankettes already in Libya.[1]

How would this impact the 1940 campaign and fighting going forward given that they'd have the best tanks in theater until 1942? And better tanks than the Germans until then.

 

[ATP]

What if ASBs take pity on the Italian army and replace all their tanks at the start of Italian entry in WW2 with the P26/40?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P26/40_tank

It would be nearly equivalent to the Panzer IV of 1942 with better armor but a worse gun, though that gun would be plenty for the primary Italian theater in North Africa. It would be plenty to take out the Matilda and IIRC even be enough against the M4 Sherman, but only within 500m.

All existing Italian tanks are upgraded to the P26/40 and all production converted to make these tanks and their chassis exclusively. If the Italians opt to turn them into an assault gun configuration they can later.

So this would mean for the invasion of Egypt they have a reliable and desertified tank that would be the best AFV in the world at that point, which actually would help with a lot of the problems they had since most of their tanks broke down long before seeing any combat in 1940 and were captured in repair depots by the British when they attacked. There would be several hundred in Libya too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maletti_Group

How would this impact the 1940 campaign and fighting going forward given that they'd have the best tanks in theater until 1942? And better tanks than the Germans until then.

Add P.43M prototype/with 90mm gun/ - in 1943 they were building wooden model only.P.43 was not that good/still obsolate 75mm gun/
And,since in the beginning of 1941 italian have 145 M.13 and 70 M.11 in Egypt,they could hold british attack - british have only 50 Matildas.

Italy have 24 M.11 in Athiopia,too.

So,taking Egypt and Sudan,linking with Italians in Ethiopia - possible.

P.S M.46/75 semovente have 75mm gun longer then that on P.40.Could be used on next P.40 wersion here.

 

[sillygoose]

P.S M.46/75 semovente have 75mm gun longer then that on P.40.Could be used on next P.40 wersion here.

I was thinking of that too, but reading the article about the gun the problem was the Italians couldn't produce it in significant numbers for some reason. I think because the company also made the 90mm cannon that was much better and that gun had priority for production. Unfortunately that was too much gun for the P40, but as an assault gun it might have been possible. If they could cram a 105mm/L25 gun into 15 ton chassis even a L53 90mm might have been viable in a 25-30 ton chassis.

As an aside I really don't know why the Germans didn't make an assault gun with the 88mm L56 gun; they'd have had to probably move the front drive to the rear to balance out say a Pz IV chassis, though a Pz III chassis might have worked too.

 

[ATP]

I was thinking of that too, but reading the article about the gun the problem was the Italians couldn't produce it in significant numbers for some reason. I think because the company also made the 90mm cannon that was much better and that gun had priority for production. Unfortunately that was too much gun for the P40, but as an assault gun it might have been possible. If they could cram a 105mm/L25 gun into 15 ton chassis even a L53 90mm might have been viable in a 25-30 ton chassis.

As an aside I really don't know why the Germans didn't make an assault gun with the 88mm L56 gun; they'd have had to probably move the front drive to the rear to balance out say a Pz IV chassis, though a Pz III chassis might have worked too.

They made PZ IV chasis with 75/71 gun,which was better as AT weapon then 88/56.

About italians - 90mm assault gun on P.40 chasis would certainly worked.
And,we have ASB help there,yes? it could mass produce 75/46 guns here for P.40,too.

 

[sillygoose]

They made PZ IV chasis with 75/71 gun,which was better as AT weapon then 88/56.

About italians - 90mm assault gun on P.40 chasis would certainly worked.
And,we have ASB help there,yes? it could mass produce 75/46 guns here for P.40,too.

Guderian's Duck? Jagdpanzer IV. Was a mess of a vehicle due to being way too nose heavy and the gun being too far out in front of the AFV. Also the 75/71 wasn't better than the 88/56 in terms of AT capabilities and was inferior in terms of HE ability. It was lighter though, which probably is why it was picked and because it could theoretically be shoehorned into the chassis without moving the front drive to the rear and requiring major rearranging of the internal bits.

I suppose we could have the ASB give the P40 the longer gun, but I didn't want to be too unfair.

 

[Buba]

The Italians could have the best kit in the world - but they have so many other issues that I doubt that they'd get a sniff at Alexandria ...

 

[sillygoose]

The Italians could have the best kit in the world - but they have so many other issues that I doubt that they'd get a sniff at Alexandria ...

Sure, but having much better gear would fix a big problem. Especially when they had something like 450 of these tanks in Africa in 1940.

 

[Chiron]

What if ASBs take pity on the Italian army and replace all their tanks at the start of Italian entry in WW2 with the P26/40?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P26/40_tank

It would be nearly equivalent to the Panzer IV of 1942 with better armor but a worse gun, though that gun would be plenty for the primary Italian theater in North Africa. It would be plenty to take out the Matilda and IIRC even be enough against the M4 Sherman, but only within 500m.

All existing Italian tanks are upgraded to the P26/40 and all production converted to make these tanks and their chassis exclusively. If the Italians opt to turn them into an assault gun configuration they can later.

So this would mean for the invasion of Egypt they have a reliable and desertified tank that would be the best AFV in the world at that point, which actually would help with a lot of the problems they had since most of their tanks broke down long before seeing any combat in 1940 and were captured in repair depots by the British when they attacked. There would be several hundred in Libya too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maletti_Group

How would this impact the 1940 campaign and fighting going forward given that they'd have the best tanks in theater until 1942? And better tanks than the Germans until then.

Italians still fuck up because the Generals in North Africa are fucking morons. But eke out a draw instead of a complete disaster which allows Mussolini to salvage things by sacking the idiots and putting more aggressive generals in charge. The sacked generals just going to some made up posting because only the King can actually fire them.

Germans take notice of the gun, go WTF! Then upgun the Panzer IV and III ASAP. Afrika Korps still gets sent but not two additional Italian Divisions as their is no need to wholesale replace the Armor Force in North Africa. So Rommel is able to clean this mess up.

Where things get interesting is in the Ost Front. With comparable tanks able to duke it out with the Soviets, the Italians can actually stiffen the spine of the Romanians and Hungarians.

May even change the outcome of Stalingrad depending on where they are employed.

 

[lordhen]

What if ASBs take pity on the Italian army and replace all their tanks at the start of Italian entry in WW2 with the P26/40?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P26/40_tank

It would be nearly equivalent to the Panzer IV of 1942 with better armor but a worse gun, though that gun would be plenty for

What about its leadership, do they get a upgrade as well.

 

[sillygoose]

What about its leadership, do they get a upgrade as well.

Nope, only equipment.

 

[sillygoose]

Italians still fuck up because the Generals in North Africa are fucking morons. But eke out a draw instead of a complete disaster which allows Mussolini to salvage things by sacking the idiots and putting more aggressive generals in charge. The sacked generals just going to some made up posting because only the King can actually fire them.

What does a draw look like to you?

 

[Chiron]

What does a draw look like to you?

The line stays the same, as the Italians have the maneuver capability to blast open communication routes and wreck the British Armor, causing Compass to peter out. But lack the drive and leadership to push on and exploit it. So Mussolini has to replace several Generals, which requires the King to sign off on. Which is a set of problems Hitler doesn't have.

That is something a lot of people don't understand about the Duce. He did not have absolute power and had to work around the Italian King who at anytime could have dismissed him but lacked the courage till it was too late to do so when it could have mattered.

 

[sillygoose]

The line stays the same, as the Italians have the maneuver capability to blast open communication routes and wreck the British Armor, causing Compass to peter out. But lack the drive and leadership to push on and exploit it. So Mussolini has to replace several Generals, which requires the King to sign off on. Which is a set of problems Hitler doesn't have.

Line where? That's the point I'm getting at, because if the line stays in Egypt by the end of 1940 and Compass fails that is an Italian victory and the Germans stay out. Except to help against Malta via the air. If that allows the Italians to reform and then continue on in 1941 with reinforcements (they brought in another armored division in early 1941 in addition to Rommel IOTL) plus more trucks then things get very interesting that year.

Then there is the issue of whether Greece turns into the mess it did IOTL if there are better tanks in numbers to stop the Greeks. IOTL they had 163 light tanks/tankettes, while here would have 163 heavy tanks by 1940-41 standards.

 

[Chiron]

Line where? That's the point I'm getting at, because if the line stays in Egypt by the end of 1940 and Compass fails that is an Italian victory and the Germans stay out. Except to help against Malta via the air. If that allows the Italians to reform and then continue on in 1941 with reinforcements (they brought in another armored division in early 1941 in addition to Rommel IOTL) plus more trucks then things get very interesting that year.

Then there is the issue of whether Greece turns into the mess it did IOTL if there are better tanks in numbers to stop the Greeks. IOTL they had 163 light tanks/tankettes, while here would have 163 heavy tanks by 1940-41 standards.

A victory requires the Italians to follow it up by seizing more territory which the leadership in North Africa was incapable of. Say what you will about British leadership, they were willing to fight.

 

[sillygoose]

A victory requires the Italians to follow it up by seizing more territory which the leadership in North Africa was incapable of. Say what you will about British leadership, they were willing to fight.

The Italian leadership was willing to fight, they just did a poor job of organizing for it until 1941. Keeping their camps in Egypt after defeating the British offensive is a victory as they were parked where they were for supply and political reasons. Their actual goal was to hold their ground until negotiations started, but if the British are defeated in their 'recon in force' they wouldn't be able to intervene in Greece and draw in the Germans nor get their major victory that proved to be a crucial morale boost after the disasters of 1940. When the war drags on then the question is whether British reinforcements then decide the issue.

 

[Buba]

IMO if these tanks are used well then there would be no Compass. The fighting would be in the Nile delta.

 

[sillygoose]

IMO if these tanks are used well then there would be no Compass. The fighting would be in the Nile delta.

IOTL a big part of the problem, besides supply issues, was the horrific mechanical reliability of the tanks they had. The British found most in repair when they overran the camps. To be fair the British had a severe problem with reliability too with their Crusader tanks, which spent more time in repair than in combat. Part of the issue for both sides was design, part lack of desertification. The Germans too had those issues IOTL when they arrived in the desert (and Russia with its unpaved roads).

Part of this ASB POD is that the P26/40 had the 'lessons learned' incorporated into their design, so they won't suffer the mechanical issues of the 1940-42 designs.

 

[ATP]

Italians still fuck up because the Generals in North Africa are fucking morons. But eke out a draw instead of a complete disaster which allows Mussolini to salvage things by sacking the idiots and putting more aggressive generals in charge. The sacked generals just going to some made up posting because only the King can actually fire them.

Germans take notice of the gun, go WTF! Then upgun the Panzer IV and III ASAP. Afrika Korps still gets sent but not two additional Italian Divisions as their is no need to wholesale replace the Armor Force in North Africa. So Rommel is able to clean this mess up.

Where things get interesting is in the Ost Front. With comparable tanks able to duke it out with the Soviets, the Italians can actually stiffen the spine of the Romanians and Hungarians.

May even change the outcome of Stalingrad depending on where they are employed.

1.Agree about italian generals

2.Germans could win in 1941,soviets mass surrender without fight becouse they come to liberate them.Then Gitler show true face of germans,and soviets start fighting.Better tanks do not change that.

3.Italian would certainly stiffen hungarian,becouse they fought near them,but romanians - no,they were too far for that.

4.Italian army do not fought in Stalingrad,so they could not save germans there.Romanians fought,if they get those tanks from ASB,too...

@sillygoose - what about sending italians,hungarians,japaneese and romanians T.25 czech tank in 1940?

 

[sillygoose]

@sillygoose - what about sending italians,hungarians,japaneese and romanians T.25 czech tank in 1940?

That would be up to the Germans as any Czech production would have to come out of resources they have. So likely no.

 

[ATP]

That would be up to the Germans as any Czech production would have to come out of resources they have. So likely no.

Not by germans,by ASB,just like with your version of sending P.40.