I get to conquer the Federation (SW and ST Crossover/SI)

[Jaenera Targaryen]

That was before they rediscovered Sarak’s teachings though.

The show implied the Vulcans in the ENT era had lost their way to some extent.

On the other hand, while the rediscovery of the teachings of Sarek gave us the TOS Vulcans, it could be argued that it regressed their society. Instead of living in the now, they looked back and stepped back into the past because they were too...afraid, as ironic as it might sound, of risking repeating the mistakes of the Time of Awakening.

I mean, I get not wanting to repeat them, but it's something else to hold yourself back out of fear, of cowardice. Small wonder the Klingons among others see the Vulcans as little more than Humanity's puppets if not outright pets by the 24th Century. They've no fire left in them.

 

[Deleted member 88]

I actually disagree.

Vulcan influence on humanity was profound.

You can not have TNG smug sanctimoniousness without Vulcan tutelage.

Remember T'Pol tells Archer Vulcans have been on earth for "ninety years", Vulcan ideals such as logic, discipline, science, are embedded into Starfleet.

This doesn't mean humans became Vulcans, and some humans like Sisko outright reject Vulcan influence, but I would argue the Vulcan influence is on human ideals and ideology, and lasts throughout all of Trek.

Trek humanity is the way it is impart because it assimilated a lot of Vulcan thinking.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

I actually disagree.

Vulcan influence on humanity was profound.

You can not have TNG smug sanctimoniousness without Vulcan tutelage.

Remember T'Pol tells Archer Vulcans have been on earth for "ninety years", Vulcan ideals such as logic, discipline, science, are embedded into Starfleet.

This doesn't mean humans became Vulcans, and some humans like Sisko outright reject Vulcan influence, but I would argue the Vulcan influence is on human ideals and ideology, and lasts throughout all of Trek.

Trek humanity is the way it is impart because it assimilated a lot of Vulcan thinking.

Funny you mention TNG, considering the Federation was at its weakest in that time period, born of sheer complacency, arrogance, hubris, and outright naivete. If not for Q giving the Federation a wakeup call by introducing them to the Borg, the Dominion would have steamrolled them in short order.

What the hell was Section 31 doing in all that time? Incompetent and undisciplined bastards...

 

[liberty90]

The most funny thing about Vulcans is the fact that they use strawman rationality. Like, they can be confused and unable to act when they lack perfect information even though fast action is needed. Instead of doing the truly rational thing - something that the best fits incomplete info.

 

[Navarro]

Mostly true, though at least two near-Human species were exempt from the Humanocentrist ideology imposed by COMPNOR: the Chiss and the Arkanians. The latter were even the ones controlling the Imperial bioweapons program (yeah, Section 31 can go ahead and go biowar on the Empire, cue the Empire unleashing plagues the likes of which they've never seen before in retaliation), and were so reviled for it that the New Republic barred Arkania from membership.

Even more fun here though is that the Arkanians are master of genetic engineering. More so than Humanity's own Augments, in fact. They didn't just enhance their abilities, they also created entire sub-species from the Arkanian baseline. Not only that, there are a number of Arkanian biotech firms that offer genetic services on demand.

Isn't capitalism grand? They don't get any screen time or much mention at all, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were gene-tailored Humans running around in the Star Wars galaxy, and nobody really cares, whether Human or not.

Spoiler

One of them is even in the high command of the expeditionary force.

Yeah, the Imperial Humans have no need nor desire for their 'enlightened' tutelage.

Talk about once bitten twice shy ... one mess-up with genetically enhanced segments of the population before the Federation itself existed, and they enact a total ban on genetic research, including curing genetic diseases?

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Talk about once bitten twice shy ... one mess-up with genetically enhanced segments of the population before the Federation itself existed, and they enact a total ban on genetic research, including curing genetic diseases?

It's worse than that. They actually expect other species to roll over and adopt Humanity's stance towards genetic engineering, all the while conducting genetics research on the side for Starfleet's own benefit.

In Beta-canon, the Andorians developed a species-wide genetics fault that threatened them with extinction. Starfleet had actually developed a cure, but withheld it because the research behind it wasn't meant for public consumption. Bashir found out, stole the cure, and handed it to the Andorians. Starfleet immediately arrested him and charged with a variety of crimes, only to have their faces dragged through the dirt in the court of public opinion once the public found out Starfleet would rather have let the Andorians go extinct rather than use top secret genetics technology to save them. Then an Andorian was elected president, and immediately pardoned and honored Bashir.

It's not the first time that's happened, either. Remember Dear Doctor from Enterprise? The Valakians had developed a similar species-wide genetic fault that would result in their extinction, but despite the proto-Prime Directive not applying, and despite having developed a cure, both Phlox and Archer agreed to just let the Valakians go extinct on the Darwinian basis that their evolution and natural selection had slated them for extinction, and it wasn't their place to interfere. For people who profess to hate and revile the legacy of the Eugenics Wars, they sure act no different from their former enemies.

 

[Deleted member 88]

The Andorians also briefly seceded IIRC as a result due to that.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

It's ironic that in the end, it was an Augment who saved them. I mean, with the legacy of the Eugenics Wars, you'd expect an Augment to just coldly stand by and even sneer at the Andorians as Darwinian natural selection wiped them out. Instead, said Augment - Bashir - saved them, and it was the Naturals who would have stood by and done nothing but spout empty platitudes as the Andorians died.

Even if Bashir would never support much less join Khan, I imagine the latter would smile if he ever heard of Bashir's actions, and comparing him to the hypocritical Federation (or rather, 24th Century Humanity), proudly call him a superior Human.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

As I recall the data Bashir used as the basis of his cure was from a massively classified project/incident from the 23rd century(as detailed in the Vanguard book series) which as a result literally no one in Starfleet actually knew it existed since pretty much everyone involved had been sworn to secrecy and lot of them didn't make it out to begin with. And as a recall not many people outside the project were aware of it. So you really can't blame Starfleet for not using the data to help the Andorians, pretty much nobody in it knew it existed.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

As I recall the data Bashir used as the basis of his cure was from a massively classified project/incident from the 23rd century(as detailed in the Vanguard book series) which as a result literally no one in Starfleet actually knew it existed since pretty much everyone involved had been sworn to secrecy and lot of them didn't make it out to begin with. And as a recall not many people outside the project were aware of it. So you really can't blame Starfleet for not using the data to help the Andorians, pretty much nobody in it knew it existed.

I can blame them for trying to line Bashir up against a wall when he practically saved an entire species. To quote Julius Levinson from Independence Day,

"None of you did anything to prevent this (to the Andorians)!"

It's literally the kind asinine adherence to military regulation and secrecy that you'd expect of a fascist regime, when it literally took the President of the Federation himself to tell Starfleet to fuck off and get a life.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

I can blame them for trying to line Bashir up against a wall when he practically saved an entire species. To quote Julius Levinson from Independence Day,

"None of you did anything to prevent this (to the Andorians)!"

It's literally the kind asinine adherence to military regulation and secrecy that you'd expect of a fascist regime, when it literally took the President of the Federation himself to tell Starfleet to fuck off and get a life.

Oh they totally overreacted when they found out what Bashir did, but to be fair he did break into a highly secure data archive which even if it was for a good cause should be discouraged albeit not nearly as much as they did(a slap on the wrist should have sufficed especially since he in essence brought back one of the founding world's of the Federation back to it via his actions). Mind you it didn't help that the Federation had a President who had secretly assassinated his predecessor and would have won the election for a term of his own if Andoria had stayed out of the Federation. Needless to say he definitely had the motivation to push Starfleet to heavily punish Bashir. Moreover it didn't help that a lot of the people who would have stood up for Bashir in the Admiralty were dead thanks to the Borg invasion a couple years earlier. As I recall Andorian rejoined the Federation and the discovery of the prevent president's crimes left the best candidate being an Andorian who promptly pardoned Bashir for ya know obvious reasons.

By the way if I screwed up that summary my apologies I haven't read the revelant books in at least a couple years

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Fair enough, it's just that the reaction I'd expect would have been what like Kirk and Co. had gotten at the end of Star Trek IV. Or, as you say, a slap on the wrist, and not a f*ck*ng witch hunt.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Fair enough, it's just that the reaction I'd expect would have been what like Kirk and Co. had gotten at the end of Star Trek IV. Or, as you say, a slap on the wrist, and not a f*ck*ng witch hunt.

The difference is that the Federation's President wanted Bashir punished to help keep Andoria out of the Federation so he could win his own term....which backfired when the Adorians said fuck that idea and rejoined the Federation and at roughly the same time his crimes were discovered and he was sent to prison for the rest of his life.
Meanwhile the Federation circa Star Trek IV needed to punish Kirk in order to appease the Klingons(and to ya know punish him for stealing and then loosing the Enterprise) and thus did it as aslap on the wrist as a way of saying fine we'll do it but screw you to the Klingons

 

[Sixgun McGurk]

What I'd like to know is where are the colonials in Star Trek? We see Amerind separatists in Voyager, we see human colonies in TOS, but in a time period hundreds of years on, the Earth absolutely calls the shots.

If reasonable people want to genetically engineer a better banana that grows in cold weather or something, then in the glittering future they can't? How about cloning someone a new eyeball or a heart? I could see a colonial university or medical research company wanting to do this and starting a movement that ends up with several systems telling Earth and the Federation to go F- themselves. Once you have the magical replicator tech and a population, you don't really need them anymore.

Clearly the pajama brigade isn't much good at fighting and there has to be a hundred armies worth of folk that want nothing to do with their bullshit. I mean, where are the religious separatists? If some tribes can get worlds then where is Deseret, Zion or Providence?

 

[TimeDiver]

I mean, where are the religious separatists?

Gene Roddenberry had long held a rather... poor, opinion of religion (at least of the structured, organized variety).

Wasn't until after his death with Deep Space Nine, did it ever-so-slowly (but also ham-fistedly) make its way back into Trek.

 

[Navarro]

It's ironic that in the end, it was an Augment who saved them. I mean, with the legacy of the Eugenics Wars, you'd expect an Augment to just coldly stand by and even sneer at the Andorians as Darwinian natural selection wiped them out. Instead, said Augment - Bashir - saved them, and it was the Naturals who would have stood by and done nothing but spout empty platitudes as the Andorians died.

Even if Bashir would never support much less join Khan, I imagine the latter would smile if he ever heard of Bashir's actions, and comparing him to the hypocritical Federation (or rather, 24th Century Humanity), proudly call him a superior Human.

Not to mention that with those time travel episodes in Voyager, it seems the Eugenics Wars weren't even that big a thing ...

 

[Navarro]

Funny you mention TNG, considering the Federation was at its weakest in that time period, born of sheer complacency, arrogance, hubris, and outright naivete. If not for Q giving the Federation a wakeup call by introducing them to the Borg, the Dominion would have steamrolled them in short order.

What the hell was Section 31 doing in all that time? Incompetent and undisciplined bastards...

The Prime Directive in all its moral incoherence was apparently originally a Vulcan doctrine as well ...

 

[Deleted member 88]

The Prime Directive is to the core a doctrine about protecting the weak from the strong.

Which is why whenever people accuse it of being "imperialist" I blow a gasket.

Its about ensuring those with superior tech(the Federation) don't disrupt or unduly effect developing civilizations that can not meet them with parity.

Standing stoically while a civilization dies is seen as the consequence of non intervention taken seriously. Its not values we'd hold today, but the sort of deference to a "cosmic will" is something I can see Federation society believing in, even if it leads to the destruction of a primitive species, they will not intervene as a matter of principle.

 

[liberty90]

It's not imperialist, it's simply, ironically, irrational. Weak primitive cultures are not nice internally to their own weak subcultures or individuals. "Might makes right" always at some level. Considering only planetary-level is incredibly arbitrary.

 

[Deleted member 88]

This means the Federation has to be involved in every civilization to develop them, to some higher standard. Which is both seen as immoral and impractical in the extreme.