Historical Misconceptions

[PsihoKekec]

Starting with some of the most common ones from the Battle of Bulge:
Kampfgruppe Peiper did not make the deepest advance during the Battle of the Bulge, that honour goes to the 2nd Panzer division of the mundane Wehrmacht, with 116th being close second.

German plans were not based on capture of American fuel depots but on their own fuel reserves, any captured fuel depots would be a welcome bonus. Their fuel consumption and delivery plans were badly overoptimistic though.

The decisive defensive action of the offensive was the battle for the Elsenborne Ridge.

The situation in Bastonge was nowhere as bad as the myth would have it, (not that the defenders would know it) most of the German units that supposedly took part in the battle actually bypassed the town and moved towards Meuse, so the actual encirclement was carried out by a depleted division so there was a rough parity between both forces and there was only one mayor attack before the encirclement was broken.
Ironically, the heaviest fighting around the Bastonge was after the linkup, once the city was not in danger of falling anymore.

 

[Zachowon]

Starting with some of the most common ones from the Battle of Bulge:
Kampfgruppe Peiper did not make the deepest advance during the Battle of the Bulge, that honour goes to the 2nd Panzer division of the mundane Wehrmacht, with 116th being close second.

German plans were not based on capture of American fuel depots but on their own fuel reserves, any captured fuel depots would be a welcome bonus. Their fuel consumption and delivery plans were badly overoptimistic though.

The decisive defensive action of the offensive was the battle for the Elsenborne Ridge.

The situation in Bastonge was nowhere as bad as the myth would have it, (not that the defenders would know it) most of the German units that supposedly took part in the battle actually bypassed the town and moved towards Meuse, so the actual encirclement was carried out by a depleted division so there was a rough parity between both forces and there was only one mayor attack before the encirclement was broken.
Ironically, the heaviest fighting around the Bastonge was after the linkup, once the city was not in danger of falling anymore.

There was a city further forward thay had taken more of a brunt force from the get go, St Vith iirc. They were overrun and basically pushed onto the backfoot.
Bastogne was hit by a lot of artillery especially but they were still able to hold out even against somewhat even odds.

The book, battle: Story of the Bulge, makes this clear as well from yaking first hand accounts from those invovled.
At the time US forces didn't know that forced they were facing were not the full amount they thought. The ability to see the enemy was hindered by bad weather. Bulge itself was a whole big battle that had battles of Germans driving right through American command posts and everything

 

[Bacle]

Plus, during the Bulge, we were fucking with German radio's via the first gen of what would be called EWAR/ELINT planes in some specially fitted bombers.

They jammed tank division comms and and also interfered with comms into the German rear.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Apparently B-24 internal design was especially useful for installing the bulky EW equipment, both Brits and Americans used it in this role.

 

[Bacle]

Apparently B-24 internal design was especially useful for installing the bulky EW equipment, both Brits and Americans used it in this role.

Yep, saw a docu on it in some historical Youtube channel.

 

[Yinko]

Often I hear some variation on "X power could not possibly have won". Most commonly around the Confederacy and the Axis. This seems like a misconception to me because when people say this they are looking at individual variables rather than butterfly effects.

If this general had been put in place instead of that one, what follows five steps down the line, or thirty? If Hitler had been less humane about using anthrax, or honoring the spirit of his diplomatic commitments with Japan (which were offensive rather than offensive)? If Napoleon's fame from North Africa hadn't been enough to forestall the rioters in front of the parliament building?

You realize that Catherine the Great wanted to liberalize Russia and turn it into a representative monarchy, till the French Revolution scared her off and made her react the opposite direction? How simple it would have been for Russia to have become a 19th century industrial power, if only the French monarchy had proactively assassinated political dissidents.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Regarding Germans being clueless about Normandy:

Germans feared that Allies could land at any point from Nordkapp to Pyrenees and built up fortifications and garrisons along the entire length of Atlantic Wall, with Normandy and Pas de Calais (also Walachern area) being the most fortified areas due to their geographical position. Germans gave priority to reinforcement of Normandy since March 1944 and most of their armored reserves were primed for move there. The success of German radio intelligence negated a great deal of Allied deception operations before Overlord. However due to sheer inertia, the public knowledge of WWII history is still largely shaped by what was written before much of the stuff on war was declassified and even before,some aspects were completely overlooked and still are.

 

[bintananth]

Most people don't realize just how small wooden ships were.

USS Constitution and HMS Victory are enormous wooden ships. USS Constitution is actually about 40 tons heavier than HMS Victory. Both are heavier than most WWII-era destroyers.

A more typical one would be something like Niña. 55ish tons and you could theoretically pull her out of the water and deposit her in someone's driveway with room to spare.

 

[Zachowon]

Regarding Germans being clueless about Normandy:

Germans feared that Allies could land at any point from Nordkapp to Pyrenees and built up fortifications and garrisons along the entire length of Atlantic Wall, with Normandy and Pas de Calais (also Walachern area) being the most fortified areas due to their geographical position. Germans gave priority to reinforcement of Normandy since March 1944 and most of their armored reserves were primed for move there. The success of German radio intelligence negated a great deal of Allied deception operations before Overlord. However due to sheer inertia, the public knowledge of WWII history is still largely shaped by what was written before much of the stuff on war was declassified and even before,some aspects were completely overlooked and still are.

Where were the reinforcements

 

[PsihoKekec]

Before 6th june? Two infantry divisions, Flak corps, two Stug battalions, two machinegun battalions. Of the Panzer divisions, 21st was in Normandy, with Panzerlehr and 12th SS being close to Normandy (and sent into action on 6th), while 2nd was in the Pas de Calais and was sent to Normandy on 8th.

The reinforcements sent after 6th were delayed by devastation of rail and road network, not to mention constant air interdiction sorties.

Germans recognised the Normandy landing as the main effort right away, but they also knew that landing in the South France will be coming and feared that Allies could do secondary landings elsewhere in Europe.

Germans were monitoring naval and railway traffic and new there was not enough of it in SE England for threat of invasion to be imminent, while in South England - opposite to Normandy it was, but they believed the weather will be too bad for invasion to proceed, leading to operational surprise.

 

[Scottty]

Most people don't realize just how small wooden ships were.

USS Constitution and HMS Victory are enormous wooden ships. USS Constitution is actually about 40 tons heavier than HMS Victory. Both are heavier than most WWII-era destroyers.

A more typical one would be something like Niña. 55ish tons and you could theoretically pull her out of the water and deposit her in someone's driveway with room to spare.

Built in a different century, by a different country and for a completely different purpose.
Quite apart from that, of course they'd have more small ships than big ones.
But it's impressive how far they explored in those caravels.

 

[Zachowon]

Before 6th june? Two infantry divisions, Flak corps, two Stug battalions, two machinegun battalions. Of the Panzer divisions, 21st was in Normandy, with Panzerlehr and 12th SS being close to Normandy (and sent into action on 6th), while 2nd was in the Pas de Calais and was sent to Normandy on 8th.

The reinforcements sent after 6th were delayed by devastation of rail and road network, not to mention constant air interdiction sorties.

Germans recognised the Normandy landing as the main effort right away, but they also knew that landing in the South France will be coming and feared that Allies could do secondary landings elsewhere in Europe.

Germans were monitoring naval and railway traffic and new there was not enough of it in SE England for threat of invasion to be imminent, while in South England - opposite to Normandy it was, but they believed the weather will be too bad for invasion to proceed, leading to operational surprise.

Wernt the largest buildup of German forces further north towards the smallest part of the channel?

 

[bintananth]

Built in a different century, by a different country and for a completely different purpose.
Quite apart from that, of course they'd have more small ships than big ones.
But it's impressive how far they explored in those caravels.

Caravels were basically the 15th century equivalent of a racing yacht or sports car. La Santa Maria was a carrack built to haul cargo. She was massive when compared to a caravel and still tiny.

Some of the funniest conversations I've been a part of were along the lines of "You could park aircraft carriers inside of this building's footprint." The look on someone's face when they realize that I'm not joking is hilarious.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Wernt the largest buildup of German forces further north towards the smallest part of the channel?

No, at the time of landing the largest buildup was in Normandy.

 

[Zachowon]

No, at the time of landing the largest buildup was in Normandy.

It was? I definitely do not remember that.
More along the closer point because of the Phantom Army

 

[Scottty]

Caravels were basically the 15th century equivalent of a racing yacht or sports car. La Santa Maria was a carrack built to haul cargo. She was massive when compared to a caravel and still tiny.

Some of the funniest conversations I've been a part of were along the lines of "You could park aircraft carriers inside of this building's footprint." The look on someone's face when they realize that I'm not joking is hilarious.

Real estate agent: "you can park so many aircraft carriers inside this building!"

 

[Scottty]

Now I'm remembering an animated TV series about some big spaceship that could transform into a giant robot thing that had a pair of no-kidding aircraft carriers for arms.

 

[ATP]

Now I'm remembering an animated TV series about some big spaceship that could transform into a giant robot thing that had a pair of no-kidding aircraft carriers for arms.

Seems legit,but....what aircraft carriers were doing in space?

 

[bintananth]

Real estate agent: "you can park so many aircraft carriers inside this building!"

That would only be applicable if the building is larger than the Amphitheatrum Flavium.

The ruins of that ampitheatre are still present and standing in Rome. The Romans actually flooded it and conducted mock naval battles inside of it just to entertain the plebes.

 

[LordsFire]

Often I hear some variation on "X power could not possibly have won". Most commonly around the Confederacy and the Axis. This seems like a misconception to me because when people say this they are looking at individual variables rather than butterfly effects.

With WWII, it's less an 'it was absolutely and utterly impossible on every level,' and more 'as far as things can be impossible, it was.' If the stars had aligned and every single Allied leader was incompetent, while every single Axis leader operated at the level of Rommel or Yamamoto, they might possibly have been able to win.

But, at the start of the war...

Germany had no ability to meet its own oil needs during peace-time, and lacked the naval capability to invade Britain. The only reason it succeeded against France, was French incompetence. Something a lot of people aren't aware of, is that the British were building combat aircraft faster than the Germans were during the Battle for Britain.

The Japanese lacked the strategic reach and logistical capacity to even try to invade the mainland US, and the ability to supply not only their own oil needs, but also their own steel needs. Hitting Pearl Harbor stretched their logistical capabilities, and they lacked the industrial capacity to make up for losses in a remotely meaningful manner.

People say 'It wasn't possible for the Axis to win,' because both powers not only lacked the ability to strike at their primary enemies in a manner that could knock them out of the war, they lacked the ability to gain that ability in a meaningful time-frame.

It would have taken Japan five to ten years of continuing unmolested military build up to have a chance at hitting just the American West Coast.. Germany similarly would have needed five to ten years of intense naval and aerial build-up to have a meaningful chance at invading Britain. Both of these scenarios would also require that British and American military strength remain static at pre-war levels.

As soon as the leadership of the Anglosphere decided that they were willing to stay in the fight long enough to win, the Axis were functionally doomed.

And this isn't even going into the variety of minor reasons they were functionally doomed from the start.