Middle East Hagia Sophia, UNESCO World Heritage Site to be Converted into a Mosque

DarthOne

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prinCZess

Warrior, Writer, Performer, Perv
(an old joke in new context)
Erdogan continues his administration's quest to seek energy independence for Turkey by harnessing the awesome power of Kemal Ataturk spinning in the Anitkabir.

Somewhat saddening on a broad level to see Turkey taking another symbolic step away from the secularism that allowed it to develop faster than some of its neighbors. But, at the same time, the country and its people are not beholden to an amorphous outside desire to maintain the status quo and have different ideas of what is in their national interest and character going forward. Hopefully they do maintain the site's openness--but this erects a barrier that could be made higher and more restricting in the future should Erdogan or a successor ever wish it.
The quietness it will be addressed with by many in the UN in comparison to the uproar that would ensue were Israel ever to act similarly is something else, though.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
(an old joke in new context)
Erdogan continues his administration's quest to seek energy independence for Turkey by harnessing the awesome power of Kemal Ataturk spinning in the Anitkabir.

Somewhat saddening on a broad level to see Turkey taking another symbolic step away from the secularism that allowed it to develop faster than some of its neighbors. But, at the same time, the country and its people are not beholden to an amorphous outside desire to maintain the status quo and have different ideas of what is in their national interest and character going forward. Hopefully they do maintain the site's openness--but this erects a barrier that could be made higher and more restricting in the future should Erdogan or a successor ever wish it.
The quietness it will be addressed with by many in the UN in comparison to the uproar that would ensue were Israel ever to act similarly is something else, though.
Personally, I suspect Erdogan is going to run his country into the ground with his attempts to consolidate his grip on power, and Turkey will eventually be considered no better than its neighbors in Iraq, Iran, and Syria.
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Wasn't it already a mosque due to the Ottomans? Or did they de-mosque-ify it at some point?
 

Tryglaw

Well-known member
(an old joke in new context)
Erdogan continues his administration's quest to seek energy independence for Turkey by harnessing the awesome power of Kemal Ataturk spinning in the Anitkabir.

Somewhat saddening on a broad level to see Turkey taking another symbolic step away from the secularism that allowed it to develop faster than some of its neighbors. But, at the same time, the country and its people are not beholden to an amorphous outside desire to maintain the status quo and have different ideas of what is in their national interest and character going forward. Hopefully they do maintain the site's openness--but this erects a barrier that could be made higher and more restricting in the future should Erdogan or a successor ever wish it.
The quietness it will be addressed with by many in the UN in comparison to the uproar that would ensue were Israel ever to act similarly is something else, though.

This is EU's own fault. In the name of Europe's dogmatic take on how "liberal democracy" is supposed to be like, the Turks were made to neuter the military and it's ability to step in and tell democratically elected government that no, they don't get to do this and that (if doing so undermined Turkish secularism).

Eurocrats did not bother taking Turkish circumstances into account, and EU's democracy fetishism naively assumed the Turks would always vote secular / liberal / progressive, ignoring the possibility of Islamists voted into power completely, almost per definition.

Also, EU was acting deliberately in bad faith, Turkey was never* going to be permitted to join the EU no matter what concessions they gave. EU bureaucratic establishment thought they could keep the Turks waiting indefinitely in the antechamber without any ill consequence.

*As doing so would have changed the internal power dynamic, adding Ankara to Berlin-Paris axis (with a side of London back then) running the show.

So it should come as no surprise the Turks with their proud Ottoman tradition / legacy gave the Eurocrats one big "f*ck you" voting as they did.
 

Yinko

Well-known member
Wasn't it already a mosque due to the Ottomans? Or did they de-mosque-ify it at some point?
When I visited in 2008 they were carefully removing the gold paint that had been used to cover over the Byzantine mosaics on the ceiling. If they turn it into a mosque then they will have to either cover or destroy those.

Personally, I suspect Erdogan is going to run his country into the ground with his attempts to consolidate his grip on power, and Turkey will eventually be considered no better than its neighbors in Iraq, Iran, and Syria.
When I was in Turkey in 2019 it was basically a police state. Check points at regular intervals on the highways, APCs with either heavy machine guns or small bore cannons (it's hard for a layman to tell the difference at a distance) in town squares and crossroads (including parts of Istanbul).
Istanbul had also gotten a lot slummier in the last ten years. A lot more grime, trash and graffiti. The border guards also didn't like that I was American and they wanted to check my phone for any anti-Turkush stuff but gave up when they realized I don't use social media.
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Istanbul had also gotten a lot slummier in the last ten years. A lot more grime, trash and graffiti. The border guards also didn't like that I was American and they wanted to check my phone for any anti-Turkush stuff but gave up when they realized I don't use social media.
How does phone checking for border security work? You just let them look in your phone for random shit?
 

Yinko

Well-known member
How does phone checking for border security work? You just let them look in your phone for random shit?
In that case, yes. In the case of Australia and other, more advanced, police states they clone all the data on your phone and then check it in more detail at their leisure.

EDIT -
img_20190430_122715220_hdr_by_blablaixion_de17o82-fullview.jpg
I took that at a cafe in the city center. The turret on the top of the APC has a barrel that I'd place at between 50 cal and 1". Heavier guns one highways and near Istanbul (but mostly located on what we'd think of as 'speed traps', blind corners where the guns can cover the road without people usually seeing them).
 
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Es Arcanum

Princeps Terra
Founder
Australia is a police state now? 😄

Anyway, it's a shame if Turkey is going down the tubes, I was there about 7 years ago and loved it. Wouldn't have minded going back which considering how many other places I still want to see is saying something. 😁

And the Hagia Sofia was magnificent, I wonder what they'll do about the original Christian murals as well.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Um... yes? Their social control policies are actually pretty bad and their version of the NSA monitors their citizens a lot more proactively than ours does. I'd honestly put them as worse than the UK or Germany, as those countries tend to do less with what they gather.

All those memes about Australians being mega Badasses are completely false if they let this happen

They’ll apologize to the Kangaroo as it kicks them to death en masse
 

Es Arcanum

Princeps Terra
Founder
Um... yes? Their social control policies are actually pretty bad and their version of the NSA monitors their citizens a lot more proactively than ours does. I'd honestly put them as worse than the UK or Germany, as those countries tend to do less with what they gather.

I think you need to lay off the crack mate.:ROFLMAO:

I mean it's bad enough that your bar for what constitutes a police state is so low but that you then say that Australia is a police state whilst the USA is not under the same parameters...

I appreciate you ascribing more competence to our government than they probably deserve though. That was nice of you. :)
 

Tryglaw

Well-known member
Um... yes? Their social control policies are actually pretty bad and their version of the NSA monitors their citizens a lot more proactively than ours does. I'd honestly put them as worse than the UK or Germany, as those countries tend to do less with what they gather.

Well, just google "Australia" and "war on encryption".
Though likewise in UK you can't refuse to give the password to your encrypted files if the authorities demand it.
 

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