United States George Floyd Protests, Reactions and Riots
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Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
I don't know the randos.
Yeah. This kind of thing is why I don't think there will be a civil war: "the right" will never be organized enough or willing to risk what they have to stop the takeover - the laws will be rewritten and the culture and halls of power will be purged so that the right has no political power or influence to challenge the left in any meaningful way.
The redneck in the woods of Georgia with their illegal guns will be just as much a threat to Democratic control of the State as the gang banger with his illegal gun is a threat to the democratic control of Detroit.
Detroit is the the blackpill that there is basically no level of terrible that will threaten democratic power once they get themselves properly fixed in place. We will see how bad California eventually get, but I'm not sure there will ever really be a point where California gets so bad that Democratic control of it will be threatened.
Anarcho Tyranny seems our more likely future than civil war, because I don't see the right ever really being able to put up any effective resistance: "the right" in the proud boys and such lost decisively in the streets, Virginia showed that the common gun owner is completely harmless, and it still looks like the FBI is still set up to let the politically connected get away with murder and imprison the politically disconnected for jaywalking.
Probably no major corporation will be left to hold any sort of right wing position: and if the top 500 companies are all staffed head to toe with political commissars to enforce ideological conformity, who cares about if a bakery occasionally does something UnPC, accept to occasionally target to let all the other small businesses know that there is no offense too small to escape judgement and punishment on, merely that their transgressions may for now escape notice, as long as they do not do something to bring the eye of Sauron upon them.
D
Deleted member 88
Guest
Well in Chicago I recall reading they literally pulled up the bridge to prevent the rioting from reaching the swanky gentrified parts of the city.
And that‘s the thing-the anarchy will never be universal. So long as it’s contained it won’t threaten the Dems and their allies. That is the upper and middle class people who actually are in charge here.
The Dems don’t actually need to make things better for their constituents-minority or not. Dem politics is really actually quite ancient. It’s patronage-give goodies in exchange for support.
Which is why black, Hispanic and other such minority groups will never leave the Dem party in numbers that matter-the Dems give them free stuff. And will give them more when they complain.
In some ways, I’d say the Dems have grasped human psychology better than conservatives. People will act and think tribalistically, and will take alms and patronage goodies over self improvement if offered. If someone else is paying you freebies, you’d be a sucker to try and climb the ladder and reject them.
In Ancient Rome-politicians used the dole and handing out coins to beggars to build political bases. These people weren’t necessarily even grateful, but they knew where their bread was buttered. So they voted and acted accordingly.
Even so-leftist Dem rule is unsustainable even in your nightmare scenario. If only due to foreign powers which become more competitive, are more internally cohesive, and capable. And the fact that such an environment you describe will bring corruption and institutional rot like the worst of South America or Africa.
Which means that even if the left is institutionally supreme-the power of the country they rule will be hollow and decay to the point it finally collapses.
Though this could take a very long time. Perhaps a century or more.
*I’m not a group psychologist or anything. But it wouldn’t surprise me if there was some sort of bond or attachment(on the side of the recipient) formed through patronage. Which would explain the emotional gut level loyalty of people to the Dem party. Maybe humans are hardwired to be loyal/supportive of those that give them food/shiny things.
And that‘s the thing-the anarchy will never be universal. So long as it’s contained it won’t threaten the Dems and their allies. That is the upper and middle class people who actually are in charge here.
The Dems don’t actually need to make things better for their constituents-minority or not. Dem politics is really actually quite ancient. It’s patronage-give goodies in exchange for support.
Which is why black, Hispanic and other such minority groups will never leave the Dem party in numbers that matter-the Dems give them free stuff. And will give them more when they complain.
In some ways, I’d say the Dems have grasped human psychology better than conservatives. People will act and think tribalistically, and will take alms and patronage goodies over self improvement if offered. If someone else is paying you freebies, you’d be a sucker to try and climb the ladder and reject them.
In Ancient Rome-politicians used the dole and handing out coins to beggars to build political bases. These people weren’t necessarily even grateful, but they knew where their bread was buttered. So they voted and acted accordingly.
Even so-leftist Dem rule is unsustainable even in your nightmare scenario. If only due to foreign powers which become more competitive, are more internally cohesive, and capable. And the fact that such an environment you describe will bring corruption and institutional rot like the worst of South America or Africa.
Which means that even if the left is institutionally supreme-the power of the country they rule will be hollow and decay to the point it finally collapses.
Though this could take a very long time. Perhaps a century or more.
*I’m not a group psychologist or anything. But it wouldn’t surprise me if there was some sort of bond or attachment(on the side of the recipient) formed through patronage. Which would explain the emotional gut level loyalty of people to the Dem party. Maybe humans are hardwired to be loyal/supportive of those that give them food/shiny things.
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CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
THAT is the biggest thing to fear regarding Far Leftism
Simply put, is the sheer level of resilience and stubborness it has regardless of continued failure
I think there was a call to allow movement to occur from one side of the bridge to the other, a politician or celebrity went there and even called for it to go down so they could cross
Though, that may have been another city
D
Deleted member 88
Guest
Yeah, it doesn’t matter how much it fails on a continuous basis. Or if the propaganda the people are told is demonstrably false. Leftist controlled institutions are so structured to endure for a long time. Even in the face of failure.
Absolute power, total power-not merely of institutions but of human minds is extremely endurable. So long as people believe what they are told, or say they do. The system will endure. Even if only through sheer inertia.
That is what makes the institutional left so dangerous. Even now. A leftist policy can fail, a leftist organization or leader can be discredited, made mockery of, or even arrested. But so long as the hold on the institutions remains rock solid, it has no lasting effect.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
You're missing a couple of very important factors here:
1. People can and have just left Detroit and California, and continue to do so. The flight from California has barely begun, but the flight from Detroit has been going on for nigh 50 years. If people had no choice but to stay, then there would have been a great deal more conflict for power.
2. Quantity of gun ownership, and the objectives of those who have them matter. Criminals are interested in money and 'street cred' types of authority and power. Also, in places like Chicago they have strong ties to those in government, and thus have incentive to maintain the system as it is. Gun owning conservatives are much more numerous than armed gangsters, and many of us explicitly carry guns with the purpose of resistance to governmental tyranny.
3. The culture war ebbs and flows. Reagan was a time of Conservative ascendancy, as was W. Bush, though much less so. It was a limited ascendancy, because the left's control of academia and the media was still strong, but the internet also began to erode that. Yes, the left strongly controls academia and the legacy media, but the influence of these institutions is fading. The lock they developed on tech giants during the Obama years has been much more concerning, but that story isn't finished yet, and Trump may very well have begun the process of breaking them.
4. In the end, this is part of the cycle of civilizational growth and decline. Every hegemonic civilization eventually collapses under its own prosperity. Freedom must be won every generation, and with the Millenials and Zoomers, that's in flux in a way it never was with the Xers and their predecessors. I don't think it's lost at this point, but it's certainly declined, and depending on how things go, the next generation or two might see its failure.
5. The make or break in the process of political decline will be whether or not gun ownership can be choked out or not. If not, when the critical tipping point comes, freedom-loving people will rise and defeat the would-be tyrants in the government. If it is choked out, America as it was founded will die, and its people will become serfs, like so much of the rest of the world.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
@JagerIV
@Lord Invictus
@LordsFire
I think we may need a new thread to talk about this, just in-case, that said @LordsFire you gave me more hope for the future just now.
@Lord Invictus
@LordsFire
I think we may need a new thread to talk about this, just in-case, that said @LordsFire you gave me more hope for the future just now.
D
Deleted member 88
Guest
Gun ownership doesn’t matter if it doesn’t have organization and political objectives behind it.
You can be a veritable gun nut, clutching your AR-15, and be entirely impotent politically.
The powers that be don’t have to send the police to go after you-they send a team of psychologists to “help you”, or they let you stew in your own home content to let you clutch your gun and not take it outside.
To be sure they don’t want the challenge on their monopoly of violence anyway, but simply stocking up on guns without a political organization of which to make use of them-is just pointless.
@CarlManvers2019 a mod is free to make one, call it the future of our civilization or something.
You can be a veritable gun nut, clutching your AR-15, and be entirely impotent politically.
The powers that be don’t have to send the police to go after you-they send a team of psychologists to “help you”, or they let you stew in your own home content to let you clutch your gun and not take it outside.
To be sure they don’t want the challenge on their monopoly of violence anyway, but simply stocking up on guns without a political organization of which to make use of them-is just pointless.
@CarlManvers2019 a mod is free to make one, call it the future of our civilization or something.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Thousands of people marching armed in Virginia shows some clear organization and political objectives both. Watch the state and local elections there in November to see if that is sustained into something larger as well.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
The looter horde switches direction to walmart.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
And you got people organizing neighborhood watches too, sure any of your groups are being vilified but you got an actual community.
Prince Ire
Section XIII
Oh, conservatives grasp this very well, and can (and have) worked very well in such a patronage based system. But conservatives have not been a meaningful force in American politics since 1783. The entirety of American politics since then has simply been an internal debate within liberalism between progressive liberals and classical liberals. And I would say classical liberals are indeed ideologically incapable of mounting an effective defense against any patronage based appeal to minority groups.
Excuse me, but what is your definition of conservatism?
LifeisTiresome
Well-known member
I have seen people say not on this site even that the republicans aren't even conservatives. They are just liberals that want to stay on the current accepted left consensus whereas democrats are liberals that want to push society even more left.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
I recall someone else here saying that modern day conservatives are Social Liberals but want a very free market and that dislike or non-adherence for "traditional values" is not a "good thing"
That's what conservatives are supposed to be though, they want to conserve present day society, it's literally in the name.
Except they don't actually conserve, they just stall while in power and then don't roll anything back when they can. Modern conservatives lack the will to power that the left has had driving them to 'restructure' society as they see fit. It's just social liberalism in effect if not in rhetoric because the pushback is purely in words.
Not a bad thing per se but it's completely ineffectual as a way to combat 'everything isracist, everything is sexist' and the unflinching desire and will to legislate along that line.
LifeisTiresome
Well-known member
Exactly what this poster says @GoldRanger
Basically, the sentiments I've seen is that Conservatives conserve nothing. They are delayers, nothing more.
LifeisTiresome
Well-known member
Going by this standard, eventually you will have it that drag kids and so on will become a conservative position and democrats will have something even more outrageous as their position.
There is a meme picture about this I saw before.
@Senor Hortler
You have that meme about what a future conservative and their positions would be?
There is a meme picture about this I saw before.
@Senor Hortler
You have that meme about what a future conservative and their positions would be?