Sci-Fi Tech Foundation analysis

[chornedsnorkack]

I note that Asimov´s Foundationverse is not one of the classics for which thread prefix is offered.
Yet it is useful to compare the technical analysis of other series, posted later.
Asimov does have many cases of inability to do math, or recall and make consistent references elsewhere. But so do these other series.

Starting from the very first. "Foundation" itself. Astounding, May 1942.
It is not just the main text, copied (with alterations) into the novel.
Who here has noted that the contents summary for "Foundation" contains a key piece of information about Foundation, which is not otherwise disclosed in any of the subsequent stories, certainly before 1982?

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Now consider the next pieces of work to note.
The two starts of "Foundation" itself. Page 38. AFAIK, not repeated in the novel.
First, the summary under title. Not new information, but what is supposed to be the important part of the setting - not directly spelt out in main text. Since it is not in the novel, quoting it in full:

It's a characteristic of a decadent civilization that their "scientists" consider all knowledge already known— that they spend their time making cyclopedic gatherings of that knowledge. But that Foundation was something rather tricky —

And now the original opening. Missing in novel, so also quoting in full:

Hari Seldon was old and tired. His voice, roared out though it was, by the amplifying system. was old and tired as well.
There were few in that small assemblage that did not realize that Hari Seldon would be dead before the next spring. And they listened in respectful silence to the last official words of the Galaxy's greatest mind.
"This is the last meeting," that tired voice said, "of the group I had called together over twenty years ago." Seldon's eyes swept the seated scientists. He was alone on the platform, alone in the wheel chair to which a stroke had confined him two years before, and on his lap was the last volume — the fifty-second — of the minutes of previous meetings. It was opened to the last page.
He continued: "The group I called together represented the best the Galactic Empire could offer of its philosophers, its psychologists, its historians, and its physical scientists. And in the twenty years since, we have considered the greatest problem ever to confront any group of fifty men— perhaps the greatest ever to confront any number of men.
"We have not always agreed on methods or on procedure. We have spent months and, doubtless, years on futile debates over relatively minor issues. On more than one occasion, sizable sections of our group threatened to break away altogether.
"And yet" — his old face lit in a gentle smile — "we solved the problem. Many of the original members died and were replaced by others. Schemes were abandoned; plans voted down; procedures proven faulty.
"Yet we solved the problem; and not one member, while yet alive, left our group. I am glad of that."
He paused, and allowed the subdued applause to die.
"We have done; and our work is over. The Galactic Empire is falling, but its culture shall not die, and provision has been made for a new and greater culture to develop therefrom. The two Scientific Refuges we planned have been established: one at each end of the Galaxy, at Terminus and at Star's End. They are in operation and already moving along the inevitable lines we have drawn for them.
"For us is left only one last item, and that fifty years in the future. That item, already worked out in detail, will be the instigation of revolts in the key sectors of Anacreon and Loris. It will set that final machinery in motion to work itself out in the millennium that follows."
Hari Seldon's tired head dropped. "Gentlemen, the last meeting of our group is hereby adjourned. We began in secret; we have worked throughout in secret; and now end in secret — to wait for our reward a thousand years hence with the establishment of the Second Galactic Empire."
The last volume of minutes closed, and Hari Seldon's thin hand fell away from it.
"I am finished!" he whispered.

I note four things here to highlight, in comparison with things stated elsewhere.
One of these is in comparison with something noted above. And that is the summary in contents.
The quote to compare with contents:

The group I called together represented the best the Galactic Empire could offer of its philosophers, its psychologists, its historians, and its physical scientists. And in the twenty years since, we have considered the greatest problem ever to confront any group of fifty men

Note the key difference?

 

[chornedsnorkack]

The originals also have original illustrations. Which sometimes give key information about Foundationverse.
Starting with top of page 39. But I will address the illustration later, when I reach the applicable text passage.
Going on page 39...

Hardin smiled to himself. He was in a hurry, but he knew better than to take offense at Pirenne's cavalier treatment of anything or anyone that disturbed him at his work.

He.
It should not need commenting, but with Apple TV series, it does.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Same page:

And then Hardin withdrew a two-credit coin from his vest pocket. He flipped it and its stainless-steel surface caught glitters of light as it tumbled through the air.

Note denomination. 2 "credits".
Note the material. Steel, but "stainless" steel.
Still same page, Hardin:

The news that the Terminus City ultrawave set received two hours ago. The Royal Governor of the Prefect of Anacreon has assumed the title of king.

Note:
"the" Terminus City ultrawave set;
"Governor of the Prefect of Anacreon" - here Asimov is using "Prefect" for administrative unit. Usually in Latin, "prefect" is a person. The administrative unit in English is usually "prefecture".
Also contrast the previous page:
"revolts in the key sectors of Anacreon and Loris".

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Pages 39...40, Pirenne starting...

"Well? What of it?"
"It means," responded Hardin, "that we're cut off from the inner regions of the Empire. Do you realize that Anacreon stands square across what was our last remaining trade route to Santanni and to Trantor and to Vega itself? Where is our metal to come from? We haven't managed to get a steel or aluminum shipment through in six months and now we won't be able to get any at all, except by grace of the King of Anacreon."
Pirenne tch-tched impatiently.

"what was our last remaining trade route" - which means that there had been other trade routes, that were somehow cut off before.
"to Santanni and to Trantor and to Vega itself?" - note the emphasis on "Vega itself". Vega is evidently economically important as a trade partner, more so than Trantor or other inner regions of the Empire.
Note the order. Apparently Vega is further than Trantor. Since Trantor is mentioned somewhere later as centre of Milky Way, this gives the setting. The edge of Milky Way on the opposite side of Earth across the Milky Way centre.

 

[Simonbob]

It's been a while since I read Foundation.

Note the key difference?

Not sure what you're getting at?

It was an interesting book, as I recall. Interesting premise, at the very least.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Not sure what you're getting at?

Then quoting the contents summary, which, as I said, is NOT repeated in the book:

A hundred thousand men and women — scientists, they believed themselves — worked on a project. The project they thought they worked on was a fraud; the one they had really been assigned to —

The contrasting quote from Hari Seldon, which is ALSO not in the book:

The group I called together represented the best the Galactic Empire could offer of its philosophers, its psychologists, its historians, and its physical scientists. And in the twenty years since, we have considered the greatest problem ever to confront any group of fifty men—

Contrast the composition of the groups mentioned!
Another point about the conversation between Hardin and Pirenne:

We haven't managed to get a steel or aluminum shipment through in six months and now we won't be able to get any at all, except by grace of the King of Anacreon."
Pirenne tch-tched impatiently.

No shipments of steel or aluminum for six months, and Pirenne is not concerned?
Evidently the stockpiles of Terminus have been adequate at that timescale, Pirenne has not yet felt a pinch.
And now again Hardin, page 40:

The planet, Terminus, by itself cannot support a mechanized civilization. It lacks metals. You know that. It hasn't a trace of iron, copper, or aluminum in the surface rocks, and precious little of anything else.

Erm?
Liebig´s Barrel was 80 years old in 1942!

 

[Simonbob]

Ok, so 100 000 men worked on the project, but 50 knew what it was?

Massive shipments stopping, so there's only so long they can go, because the planet has nothing? But, they have eough to do what he wants?


I'm not... Look, I haven't read this in literal decades. But, the quotes you're bringing up? I can see ways to take them that work.

However, I'm not too concerned. Keep anlysing, if you want.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Ok, so 100 000 men worked on the project, but 50 knew what it was?

The relevant part is:

A hundred thousand men and women

a grouping repeated nowhere in the main text of the stories, or the books before 1980s, contrasted to

any group of fifty men

Going ahead of the point...
In the entire main text of "Foundation", not a single woman is referred to, not by name, not by reference, not as part of group. There are a few references in later stories, in "Mule" we get a woman who attended university... but called a scientist? Not even as far as "Mule". The mention in the summary, which is not in the book, is all you will get to state that.
Continuing with analysis... Page 40, Hardin:

Then why didn't it prevent the Royal Governor of Anacreon from kicking over the traces? And only Anacreon? At least twenty of the outermost prefects of the Galaxy, the entire Periphery as a matter of fact, have begun steering things their own way.

Hardin is suggesting "at least" twenty prefects, thus possibly more, but then "the entire Periphery as a matter of fact". How many prefects does the entire Periphery have? How many more than twenty?

 

[chornedsnorkack]

I mentioned that there are original illustrations, promised to return to them when the relevant text comes.
Page 40:

Anselm haut Rodric — "haut" itself signifying noble blood — Sub-prefect of Pluema and Envoy Extraordinary of his Highness of Anacreon — plus half a dozen other titles — was met by Salvor Hardin at the spaceport with all the imposing ritual of a state occasion.

The accompanying illustration is on top of page 39.
Note: "Sub-prefect", this time a person. Previously on this and previous page, "prefect" was repeatedly used for administrative unit.
For the illustration, note a number of things. Starting with that it has some overview what a Foundationverse starship might look like.

 

[Simonbob]

In the entire main text of "Foundation", not a single woman is referred to, not by name, not by reference, not as part of group. There are a few references in later stories, in "Mule" we get a woman who attended university... but called a scientist? Not even as far as "Mule".

Ok.

So, the "Men and women" one is wrong. As befits the timeframe it was written. And a summery being done in the 1980's is different?

Makes sense. Rewritten for a "Modern" audience, I'd guess.

Hardin is suggesting "at least" twenty prefects, thus possibly more, but then "the entire Periphery as a matter of fact". How many prefects does the entire Periphery have? How many more than twenty?

Or, is that all the Periphery ones, plus a few interior ones?

Usually, such things are not so clear cut, after all.

For the illustration, note a number of things. Starting with that it has some overview what a Foundationverse starship might look like.

I'd like to see them, if you get the chance.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Ok.

So, the "Men and women" one is wrong. As befits the timeframe it was written. And a summery being done in the 1980's is different?

No. The summary is original - printed in 1942, but written by whom?
It is not at all clear it is wrong. It makes perfect sense either way.
There will be bigger issues with women later in Foundation series (and Empire series, and Robot series as well).

Or, is that all the Periphery ones, plus a few interior ones?
Usually, such things are not so clear cut, after all.

Maybe, but the size of Periphery, and Empire, will be an issue later in the series.

I'd like to see them, if you get the chance.

The illustration is in the Astounding magazine, which is up at archive.org. The illustration I am at is in May 1942, on top of page 39. I don´t see a technical opportunity to select it to copy the picture, and I am not sure I should if I could (does anyone know board rules on that?).
Physical observations:
The starship is elongated... and rests on spaceport ground with long axis horizontally.
It clearly has a designated upper end, and a low fin on tail - but apparently no stabilizer or wings.
It quite clearly carries what look like several cannon barrels - mounted near the nose. Remember, it is on ostensibly peaceful diplomatic visit.
It is marked with lines, some of which are dotted (lines of rivet heads?)
On the nose beneath guns, there is a finer net of lines, apparently a window of multiple smaller panes
Some text for a change... Pages 40-41:

With a tight smile and a low bow, the subprefect had flipped his blaster from its holster and presented it to Hardin butt first. Hardin returned the compliment with a blaster specifically borrowed for the occasion. Friendship and good will were thus established, and if Hardin noted the barest bulge at Haut Rodric's shoulder, he prudently said nothing.

Note the social convention. A gentleman normally owns and carries a blaster, but gives it up on a friendly meeting.
Note that both sides subvert the spirit of the convention. Hardin by not owning or normally bearing arm and borrowing the arm for the occasion. But there were arms available on Terminus, and there were people who could and would lend them. Anselm by giving up an arm he carried openly but carrying another arm concealed and not giving up that.

This is the moment depicted on the illustration. You can note the looks and clothing of Salvor, Anselm, and the men behind Anselm.
The appearance of Anselm and his retinue was incidentally a clue to me as for who Anacreon was based on!

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Now page 41:

It is certain that "higher nobility" did not recognize irony when he heard it.
He said thoughtfully: "Founded fifty years ago. Hm-m-m! You have a great deal of unexploited land here, mayor. You have never considered dividing it into estates?"
"There is no necessity as yet. We're extremely centralized; we have to be, because of the Encyclopedia. Some day, perhaps, when our population has grown — "
"A strange world! You have no peasantry?"
Hardin reflected that it didn't require a great deal of acumen to tell that his eminence was indulging in a bit of fairly clumsy pumping. He replied casually, "No

What is Salvor calling "peasantry"?
And it indicates how Anacreon thinks to make land useful.

 

[Simonbob]

Note the social convention. A gentleman normally owns and carries a blaster, but gives it up on a friendly meeting.
Note that both sides subvert the spirit of the convention. Hardin by not owning or normally bearing arm and borrowing the arm for the occasion. But there were arms available on Terminus, and there were people who could and would lend them. Anselm by giving up an arm he carried openly but carrying another arm concealed and not giving up that.

Sure.

It's not that unusual a idea. Heck, the reason we shake hands is to show the hand that could carry a weapon is empty, and extended in peace.

I like it, though.

What is Salvor calling "peasantry"?
And it indicates how Anacreon thinks to make land useful.

Many years ago, I dealt with a Brazilian company. There was a very defined seperation, between the classes, the owners and the workers.

Didn't seem hostile, or unpleasent to anybody, but it was there, and quite obvious.

So, yes. Noble and peasant. Culture is like that, often.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Still page 41, Salvor starting:

No — nor nobility."
Haut Rodric's eyebrows lifted. "And your leader — the man I am to meet?"
"You mean Dr. Pirenne? Yes! He is the Chairman of the Board of Trustees — and a personal representative of the Emperor."
" Doctor ? No other title? A scholar ? And he rates above the civil authority?"
"Why, certainly," replied Hardin, amiably. "We're all scholars more or less. After all, we're not so much a world as a scientific foundation

This raises a question as to what the source society of Empire is like.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Still page 41:

Hardin, lighting a long cigar of Vegan tobacco — not many left, he reflected

41...42:

By the way, mayor, have you another one of those cigars?"
Hardin started and produced one reluctantly.
Anselm haut Rodric sniffed at it and emitted a clucking sound of pleasure. "Vegan tobacco! Where did you get it?"
"We received some last shipment. There's hardly any left. Space knows when we'll get more — if ever."
Pirenne scowled. He didn't smoke — and, for that matter, detested the odor.

Remember!
A "vegan" product is NOT a product made of plants rather than animals.
It is a product made on planet/s of star Vega rather than Sun.
Also:
Both Salvor and Anselm are planetary leaders, or close to it.
Anselm remembers and recognizes the smell of Vegan tobacco - but cannot get any and does not know how.
It is not only quantities of metal to meet all needs of Terminus that are not getting through any longer. Exotic luxuries for narrow circle of top leaders like the Sub-prefect also do not get through.
We see someone who does not smoke and does not like passive smoking. We will see more such in Foundation series. Take note.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Page 42:

The sub-prefect seemed unimpressed. He blew smoke rings. "That's a nice theory, Dr. Pirenne. I imagine you've got charters with the Imperial Seal upon it — but what's the actual situation? How do you stand with respect to Smyrno? You're not fifty parsecs from Smyrno's capital, you know. And what about Konom and Daribow?"
Pirenne said : "We have nothing to do with any prefect. As part of the Emperor's — "
"They're not prefects," reminded Haut Rodric; "they're kingdoms now."

Compare page 38:

instigation of revolts in the key sectors of Anacreon and Loris.

This makes 5 region names total mentioned:

1. Anacreon
2. Loris
3. Smyrno
4. Konom
5. Daribow

Of which Anacreon and Smyrno have been separately named as kingdoms; and some others collectively. Pay attention to the list, and number.

 

[Poe]

Asimov does have many cases of inability to do math

He was a professor of biochemistry, this critique is retarded

 

[chornedsnorkack]

He was a professor of biochemistry, this critique is retarded

Non-math case I´d mention is the Liebig Barrel I already mentioned. Right a case of biochemistry.
Page 42, Anselm starting:

"What the devil has that got to do with the fact that we're liable to see Terminus taken over by Smyrno at any time?"
"And the Emperor? He would just sit by?"
Haut Rodric calmed down and said:
"Well, now, Dr. Pirenne, you respect the Emperor's property and so does Anacreon, but Smyrno might not. Remember, we've just signed a treaty with the Emperor — I'll present a copy to that Board of yours tomorrow — which places upon us the responsibility of maintaining order within the borders of the old Prefect of Anacreon on behalf of the Emperor. Our duty is clear, then, isn't it?"
"Certainly. But Terminus is not part of the Prefect of Anacreon."
"And Smyrno—"
"Nor is it part of the Prefect of Smyrno. It's not part of any prefect."
"Does Smyrno know that?"
"I don't care what it knows."
"We do. We've just finished a war with her and she still holds two stellar systems that are ours. Terminus occupies an extremely strategic spot, between the two nations."

When Anacreon became a kingdom, the news that Anacreon would send an envoy had arrived within 2 hours of the news of kingdom proclaimed.
It was 2 weeks since. There is no mention in the story of Smyrno notifying Terminus of sending any envoy (as yet in 2 weeks, but also ever). Nor Konom and Daribow. So that´s a kind of answer to Anselm from me....