(Farscape) Why are Leviathans not at all militarized?

[ThatZenoGuy]

Leviathans are pretty fast, have emergency FTL abilities, have tough hulls (tough enough to ram other leviathans to death) and are compatible with military hardware such as shields.

If the peacekeepers were so adamant about breeding 'warship leviathans', why didn't they just strap a frag cannon and some lasers onto a leviathan then prod the pilot into being more 'acceptable' of combat actions?

Its weird that the show takes place on such a unique vessel but while there's entire methods made to control such ships, they are treated as being pretty expendable.

Shouldn't coming across such a ship be considered a great thing to capture and strap some guns onto? They're peaceful by nature but you're also able to just implant a control panel into them and they don't try to prevent you in doing so.

 

[Agent23]

Leviathans are pretty fast, have emergency FTL abilities, have tough hulls (tough enough to ram other leviathans to death) and are compatible with military hardware such as shields.

If the peacekeepers were so adamant about breeding 'warship leviathans', why didn't they just strap a frag cannon and some lasers onto a leviathan then prod the pilot into being more 'acceptable' of combat actions?

Its weird that the show takes place on such a unique vessel but while there's entire methods made to control such ships, they are treated as being pretty expendable.

Shouldn't coming across such a ship be considered a great thing to capture and strap some guns onto? They're peaceful by nature but you're also able to just implant a control panel into them and they don't try to prevent you in doing so.

Because

Spoiler

the Elder race that created them were a bunch of fucking dicks that wanted to make a muh peaceful space fairing race of living ships. And they tried to get rid of Talyn and Moya because she could potentially produce more armed Leviathans.

See the 'Look at the Princess' 3 parter for reference, since that is when the whole subplot with said Elder dipshits happened.

Also, it might interfere with slipstream and other stuff if the weapons are not 'integrated' properly.


They are complex lifeforms, so just burrowing a hole and sticking a canon or bolting it on might cause physical damage, and probably the 'see spoiler' made arrangements for that to be hard to do.

 

[Bear Ribs]

It's possible standard Leviathans just don't have the temperament for it, and the bleeding program involved making a Leviathan that was aggressive enough for combat duty. Moya seems extremely placid and accepting of the ridiculous things her passengers get up to, while Crais had trouble keeping Talyn from going on murderous rampages and an entire episode was devoted to him wanting to downgrade the weaponry to make Talyn less dangerous.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Because

Spoiler

the Elder race that created them were a bunch of fucking dicks that wanted to make a muh peaceful space fairing race of living ships. And they tried to get rid of Talyn and Moya because she could potentially produce more armed Leviathans.

See the 'Look at the Princess' 3 parter for reference, since that is when the whole subplot with said Elder dipshits happened.

Also, it might interfere with slipstream and other stuff if the weapons are not 'integrated' properly.


They are complex lifeforms, so just burrowing a hole and sticking a canon or bolting it on might cause physical damage, and probably the 'see spoiler' made arrangements for that to be hard to do.

I know that they are peaceful, but at least with Moya as an example, she doesn't really care too much what the crew do, happy to just fly around and follow commands. It should be possible to 'train' a leviathan from a young age into a warship, although guessing that it wouldn't work because author fiat.
Good point about the weapons maybe interfering with the starburst mechanism, they cannot starburst with a collar installed (although given that the collar is designed explicitly to do just that, maybe artificial addons aren't too taxing?).

It's possible standard Leviathans just don't have the temperament for it, and the bleeding program involved making a Leviathan that was aggressive enough for combat duty. Moya seems extremely placid and accepting of the ridiculous things her passengers get up to, while Crais had trouble keeping Talyn from going on murderous rampages and an entire episode was devoted to him wanting to downgrade the weaponry to make Talyn less dangerous.

Talyn is a whole different can of worms compared to just a regular leviathan, in my case I am counting on the leviathan being placid, while keeping the aggression solely in the hands of the crew operating her.

 

[edgeworthy]

There might also be an Elephant analogy here. Pachyderms may look big and scary, but historical experience showed that they were nearly useless as a weapon of war, and more inclined to run amok and damage their own army.
Elephantry, its a real word, was almost never worth the time and effort. Especially after the initial shock effect wore off.

Leviathans are clearly non-violent. It may well take a Pilot just to restrain their immediate flight response to any danger. The concept of a Leviathan panicking and fleeing, uncontrollably, from the shock of any integrated weapons being fired is probably quite real. Cavalry horses have to be carefully trained to handle gunfire, a regular Leviathan may simply be impossible.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Yeah, War Sheep just aren't a thing the way K9 units are. The temperament to make them into a combat asset simply doesn't exist, regardless of the skill of the trainer.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Yeah, War Sheep just aren't a thing the way K9 units are. The temperament to make them into a combat asset simply doesn't exist, regardless of the skill of the trainer.

Moya just stood still as some aliens were firing at her though, which was heavily implied to obliterate her in a single shot. So they apparently don't mind being shot 'at'. At least when someone's at the controls.

 

[Agent23]

Yeah, War Sheep just aren't a thing the way K9 units are. The temperament to make them into a combat asset simply doesn't exist, regardless of the skill of the trainer.

Yes, and this thing was genetically selected to be pacifistic.

I know that they are peaceful, but at least with Moya as an example, she doesn't really care too much what the crew do, happy to just fly around and follow commands. It should be possible to 'train' a leviathan from a young age into a warship, although guessing that it wouldn't work because author fiat.
Good point about the weapons maybe interfering with the starburst mechanism, they cannot starburst with a collar installed (although given that the collar is designed explicitly to do just that, maybe artificial addons aren't too taxing?).

Don't forget that the pilot was replaced, too, I think much of the interaction between the crew and Moya went through him, and I think that most Pilots were very different from him where their mindset to violence and the like was concerned, since

Spoiler

the old pilot was murdered, scraped out and the new one forced in.That probably caused a world of change in bot Pilot and Leviathan.

And don't forget, Pilots and Leviathans are neural linked, one feels what the other feels.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Don't forget that the pilot was replaced, too, I think much of the interaction between the crew and Moya went through him, and I think that most Pilots were very different from him where their mindset to violence and the like was concerned, since

Spoiler

the old pilot was murdered, scraped out and the new one forced in.That probably caused a world of change in bot Pilot and Leviathan.

And don't forget, Pilots and Leviathans are neural linked, one feels what the other feels.

Yeah I know about the reaplacement.

Hmmm, so the key to 'weaponized Leviathans' seems to be
A: Getting a leviathan when it's young
and
B: Likewise having a trained Pilot creature

Both aren't exactly easy to get...
Although Leviathans don't 'need' pilots, they just make operating as a spacefaring critter easier.

 

[Agent23]

Yeah I know about the reaplacement.

Hmmm, so the key to 'weaponized Leviathans' seems to be
A: Getting a leviathan when it's young
and
B: Likewise having a trained Pilot creature

Both aren't exactly easy to get...
Although Leviathans don't 'need' pilots, they just make operating as a spacefaring critter easier.

C: Traumatize both Pilot and Leviathan to the point where they snap out of their pacifism.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

C: Traumatize both Pilot and Leviathan to the point where they snap out of their pacifism.

Well, that seems like an option as well, Pilots can't exactly run away lmao.

 

[Agent23]

Well, that seems like an option as well, Pilots can't exactly run away lmao.

Get in the Leviathan, Pilot.

 

[Spartan303]

Leviathans are pretty fast, have emergency FTL abilities, have tough hulls (tough enough to ram other leviathans to death) and are compatible with military hardware such as shields.

If the peacekeepers were so adamant about breeding 'warship leviathans', why didn't they just strap a frag cannon and some lasers onto a leviathan then prod the pilot into being more 'acceptable' of combat actions?

Its weird that the show takes place on such a unique vessel but while there's entire methods made to control such ships, they are treated as being pretty expendable.

Shouldn't coming across such a ship be considered a great thing to capture and strap some guns onto? They're peaceful by nature but you're also able to just implant a control panel into them and they don't try to prevent you in doing so.

In an of themselves Leviathans make poor warships. No place to mount weapons and their internal energy reserves were not good enough. This was also compounded by Pilots refusing to aid Peacekeepers in this endeavor and Leviathans being stubborn in their refusal. So much so that the PKs had to attach control collars to Leviathans they captured just to use them as transport ships.

The Peacekeepers rectified this with Talyn, who was the first of what would hopefully be a full armada of Peacekeeper/Leviathan hybrid gunships. Thankfully it never panned out.

To put it simply, it was not worth the cost and effort put into it.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

In an of themselves Leviathans make poor warships. No place to mount weapons and their internal energy reserves were not good enough.

I dunno about this entirely, they have pretty huge surface areas, and Leviathans outsize a fair amount of ships, with only the largest capital ships dwarfing them. That's a lot of space to fit weaponry. Talyn is a fraction the size of Moya and can fit a weapon capable of damaging huge ships.
And can't you just stuff some generators/reactors in the cargo bay? Lots of room inside a leviathan, and they're capable of altering their internal volumes because they're alive.

This was also compounded by Pilots refusing to aid Peacekeepers in this endeavor and Leviathans being stubborn in their refusal. So much so that the PKs had to attach control collars to Leviathans they captured just to use them as transport ships.

There's a lot more species/groups than the peacekeepers though, and Leviathans don't seem like the most challenging things to wrangle.
At the least leviathans don't seem to mind defensive measures, like shields and potentially point defense weaponry.
I guess the show just didn't really dwell too much on Leviathans despite it taking place on one. XD

 

[Spartan303]

I dunno about this entirely, they have pretty huge surface areas, and Leviathans outsize a fair amount of ships, with only the largest capital ships dwarfing them. That's a lot of space to fit weaponry. Talyn is a fraction the size of Moya and can fit a weapon capable of damaging huge ships.
And can't you just stuff some generators/reactors in the cargo bay? Lots of room inside a leviathan, and they're capable of altering their internal volumes because they're alive.

Moya had difficulty just powering a single defense screen they salvaged from the Zalbinion. So much so that they only used it sparingly. Additional generators might work but then you'd have to hook those into Moya's systems. And there is no telling how she'd handle that. It would be like getting the equivalent of an IV of pure adrenaline in order to boost strength. Sure it'll work, for a time, but then there is what comes afterwards, which is likely a huge crash. If external power generators were never used for any reason on Moya then it's likely there's a very good reason why as it would probably cause harm to her. And no one wants that.

As for mounting energy weapons, you can't just mount them on the Hull despite all that open space. You have to cut into the hull and attach them to the ships inards and internal power systems. I believe it was mentioned that the PKs tried that and it proved traumatic to the Leviathans who later died as a result. Hence why the Gunship program that produced Talyn was considered the only viable path forward.

It should be noted that Talyn was never shown to have a defense screen. Perhaps he was too young and would have formed it later. Who knows. What we do know is that Talyn was fast. He likely would have relied on his speed and maneuverability to handle most threats. Also his hull seemed tougher than a standard Leviathans so it's likely he could take hits Moya couldn't. And as Farscape showed, Moyal took plenty of heavy hits and tanked them. Talyn fully grown would have been an absolute beast.

There's a lot more species/groups than the peacekeepers though, and Leviathans don't seem like the most challenging things to wrangle.
At the least leviathans don't seem to mind defensive measures, like shields and potentially point defense weaponry.
I guess the show just didn't really dwell too much on Leviathans despite it taking place on one. XD

A Leviathans crews first line of defense is negotiating. If and when that fails they Starburst out. That is it. Defensive weapons of any kind seem prohibited. Infact it was stated quite clearly that other Leviathans would not accept Talyn as one of their own as he had offensive and defensive weapons.

I don't particularly like it but that's the established canon and so I roll with it.

 

[Agent23]

I dunno about this entirely, they have pretty huge surface areas, and Leviathans outsize a fair amount of ships, with only the largest capital ships dwarfing them. That's a lot of space to fit weaponry. Talyn is a fraction the size of Moya and can fit a weapon capable of damaging huge ships.

Yeah, but when they starburst energy runs all over the ship from the front to the jump tentacles or whatever.

So trying to stick some type of gunpods with power supply might damage the ship or make it harder for it to starburst.

And can't you just stuff some generators/reactors in the cargo bay? Lots of room inside a leviathan, and they're capable of altering their internal volumes because they're alive.

Well, Crichton managed to equip Moya with a force screen for protection, but gun mounts in farscape are quite huge.And the force screen was an internal mount.

Maybe they could carry fighters and marauder equivalents(basically something akin to gunboats/troop transports.)
But Moya iirc wa snow here near as huge as a PK CC or a Scarren dreadnaught.
And remember, those were purpose built warships and most of the stuff we saw in Farscape was small fry pirates and the like that inhabited the Uncharted Territories.Basicslly the Farscape equivalent of Somalia and the Empty quarter.

IMHO bolting on guns would be like sticking guns on a modern container ship or a tanker.

You might be able to get something useful against the UT's flotsom, but not against a dedicated force.

Also, consider the primary users of Leviathans.

The PKs and the Scarrens, who basically enslave them.

I don't think you want your slaves capable of shooting back, and besides usually they are escorted by dedicated ships or maybe have some prowlers or marauders in the bays.

Sure there are free leviathans, but they basically let people ride them, so it will be hard to force them to have their bodies remodeled and made ugly do that they can be armed with weapons which they despise on account of being pacifists.

There's a lot more species/groups than the peacekeepers though, and Leviathans don't seem like the most challenging things to wrangle.

Yeah, but if the leviathans break out and become angry you probably don't want them armed as stated above.

Also, most of those other groups were as bad as the PKs were.

You have the Scarrens, the Nebari, the Luxans - all pretty militaristic.

Then you have smaller fry like the Hynerians, which judging from Rigel's early demeanor and stories of his people I don't think are that much nicer.

At the least leviathans don't seem to mind defensive measures, like shields and potentially point defense weaponry.

Yeah, shields and some point defense are probably the maximum you can swing.

I guess the show just didn't really dwell too much on Leviathans despite it taking place on one. XD

Yup, I for one wanted to see a spinoff involving Talyn and maybe him getting to spread some of those advanced genes around.

They could have done it cheaply, with Lani Tupu playing a Nemo-like figure role and talking to his charge most of the time.

With some cast of ex-PKs and otherw gradually forming around him.

Hell, for all his sins he could have been sucked in through a wormhole ans dumped on Earth and them made to work with a few humans while Talyn regenerates under the Pacific somewhere close to New Zealand.

Then after 2 seasons, the Earth ark being the second they could have gone back to space.

Farscape had such a huge and interesting universe, and all we got was a soap opera with S&M gear most of the time.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

As for mounting energy weapons, you can't just mount them on the Hull despite all that open space. You have to cut into the hull and attach them to the ships inards and internal power systems. I believe it was mentioned that the PKs tried that and it proved traumatic to the Leviathans who later died as a result. Hence why the Gunship program that produced Talyn was considered the only viable path forward.

Ohhhhhh I didn't know this. That explains the gunship program. Although I wonder just why the heck they needed the newborns to be fully loaded with arms lmao.

 

[Agent23]

Ohhhhhh I didn't know this. That explains the gunship program. Although I wonder just why the heck they needed the newborns to be fully loaded with arms lmao.

Just imagine somebody replacing one of your hands with a <insert badass weapon here>.

You'd probably be freaked out and a lot of damage will be done, and now imagine an alien squid that I derstsnds jack shit about human thinking and not a whole lot about huma physiology does it...

 

[Spartan303]

Ohhhhhh I didn't know this. That explains the gunship program. Although I wonder just why the heck they needed the newborns to be fully loaded with arms lmao.

Their frames and designs are adjusted from the ground up. Talyn had far more energy, his hull and systems were far sturdier and his aggression levels set to 11+ Luxxon Hyper-rage.

 

[stephen the barbarian]

can the peacekeepers find leviathans in the numbers needed reliably enough that the idea would be viable?