That only works for so long and then you're fucked when the other guys start playing by the rules you created.Well, it is consistent in the political context, where "it's good when WE do it and bad when THEY do it" is the foremost principle. (And, indeed, often the only one!)
Excellence in Shitlording
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Terthna
Professional Lurker
Their entire game plan seems to have been to constantly do things that violate the social contract, while making endless excuses that all basically boil down to "we are the chosen righteous people; therefor everything we do is automatically correct and just, and anyone who stands against us is evil". They're relying on everyone caring very deeply about what they think of them, and wanting to play by the rules that they themselves flout.
I have never seen that work out long term, what I have seen is that eventally people get sick of that shit and said people get their power removed from them.
Lord Greyscale
Member
quote a dem-wit : "So? by the time those fucking redneck sheep realize they've been had, we'll be in control!"
While it is quite true that eventually the jack-booted thugs get the viscious beatdown they deserve, we're still speaking of a decades-long plan to take over everything.
A plan that very nearly succeeded in full.
And then Trump hit them like a freight train hits a bus.
(they really didn't think Trump would dare to run against them after they rejected him, much less that he would be so willing to burn his money to burn them)
Skallagrim
Well-known member
Trump is no more than a temporary obstacle to the established power. See how they have already removed him from power, how they have de-platformed him and vilified him and continue a legal witch-hunt even now, just to keep him off his game and thus unable to effectively plot any potential come-back.
Basically....
The problem is clear. Trump tried to win in a democratic contest. He tried to play the game. He played it with some unexpected moves, but he still played. And the game is rigged. You can win a round against the house, but you can't win in the long run. They've spoiled it. They've bought the whole thing long ago.
To be sure, the upcoming economic crash will produce another populist in the mold of Trump. But that won't be more than another round, either. After that, he'll get kicked out, too. By any means, by all means.
@Cherico had it right the first time:
If the establishment has rigged the game, the only real solution is to adopt their self-made rules, which means: no rules. No holds barred, no trick too dirty, no play too ruthless. And that's the future. This won't be won by somehow outsmarting them at their own game. It's won by flipping over the board. Which is a sanitised metaphor to describe a far more bloody reality.
And you are right, too, @Lord Greyscale : this process must be viewed in decades, not years. They'll be in charge for quite some time yet, and they won't leave until they're forcibly dragged out of the halls of power. Which will happen, but not democratically and not peacefully.
When a man crosses the Potomac with a legion, whispering alea iacta est -- then there will be a change. No sooner. And whether that change is really for the better.... again, I wouldn't say that with much confidence. My whole point is that democracy and the rule of law are already dead. Most people just don't quite know it yet. So the zombie republic staggers on for a while longer.
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And this is typical black pilling. "Oh, that victory you got? Doesn't matter, you are going to lose awfully" while those in control are busy self destructing. Honestly, Trump losing seems like more and more of a win as time goes on because it shows just how fucked the swamp is.Trump is no more than a temporary obstacle to the established power. See how they have already removed him from power, how they have de-platformed him and vilified him and continue a legal witch-hunt even now, just to keep him off his game and thus unable to effectively plot any potential come-back.
Basically....
The problem is clear. Trump tried to win in a democratic contest. He tried to play the game. He played it with some unexpected moves, but he still played. And the game is rigged. You can win a round against the house, but you can't win in the long run. They've spoiled it. They've bought the whole thing long ago.
To be sure, the upcoming economic crash will produce another populist in the mold of Trump. But that won't be more than another round, either. After that, he'll get kicked out, too. By any means, by all means.
@Cherico had it right the first time:
If the establishment has rigged the game, the only real solution is to adopt their self-made rules, which means: no rules. No holds barred, no trick too dirty, no play too ruthless. And that's the future. This won't be won by somehow outsmarting them at their own game. It's won by flipping over the board. Which is a sanitised metaphor to describe a far more bloody reality.
And you are right, too, @Lord Greyscale : this process must be viewed in decades, not years. They'll be in charge for quite some time yet, and they won't leave until they're forcibly dragged out of the halls of power. Which will happen, but not democratically and not peacefully.
When a man crosses the Potomac with a legion, whispering alea iacta est -- then there will be a change. No sooner. And whether that change is really for the better.... again, I wouldn't say that with much confidence. My whole point is that democracy and the rule of law are already dead. Most people just don't quite know it yet. So the zombie republic staggers on for a while longer.
Force is a stupid game to play, even ignoring your fedposting. It won't work and is the absolute shittiest way forward, and likely ends with us in control by something far worse, not even getting into the moral problems. Optics is always what matters, and the conservatives are finally winning optics by getting separate means of getting the word out.
Seriously, if you think this is bad, you have no idea what bad is. Literally no concept. Gays were forcibly castrated/lobotomized by the government about 80 years ago, and managed to slowly improve this using mostly peaceful methods over those decades, despite only being at most 5% of the population. And that's just one example.
See, peaceful transition of power works, and peaceful protests are right now restoring rights in Canada. The only thing violence can get you, even if you win, is a dictator. The American Revolution is basically the one exception to this, and I don't expect that to repeat.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
I've never identified myself as "black-pilled". I just go by history, and I take it from there. The future, on average, looks a lot like the past.
I completely agree. This hasn't stopped anyone from resorting to it in the past millennia, though. Nor has it ever stopped elites from becoming so entrenched that only violence can -- and will -- dislodge their asses from the seat of power.
I've often said that the victory of the populist opposition (not so much "conservative", exactly) is inevitable. I've also noted that it will be hindered by every possible trick, for as long as can be managed. Which is always longer than the hopeful tend to think.
Which is exactly what I expect, and exactly what I outright predicted just now, so no surprises there.
The Roman overthrow of the Etruscan line of Kings was also an example. In fact.... it's pretty much the same example. But it's true that these things don't tend to repeat at a later stage. A war of independence can bring an improvement of some sort; a civil strife can only tear things apart.
My position has long been that just as the beginning American Republic is quite similar to that of the Roman republic, so too will its end be the same. I consider Trump much akin to a modern Tiberius Gracchus. (His supporters thought they'd win, too. It took... a bit longer. Although their political heirs did, ultimately, win. Hail Caesar, the man of the people!)
This is not what I'd consider "doom" at all, by the way. Most would argue that Rome's true greatness only began when the republic died. If such a future yet beckons to our descendants, I wouldn't call that an altogether dismal fate.
What you say here has no bearing on the discussion. It sounds a lot like the oft-heard "actually, the modern era is a golden age" claim. That's a delusion. All of the modern prosperity is based on a soap bubble. Modernity is not so prosperous as it seems, since it's mostly funded by debt. That has usually ended very poorly, historically speaking.
As I've said before: our current age is like a big party. Lots of drinking, lots of indulgence. The hangover is coming, though. And to pretend that it's not, people only indulge more and more. That'll only make the wake-up call worse.
What is fedposting? I haven't even discussed federalism here.
You clearly don't if you think force will do any good. And most of the rest of this post sounds like a love letter to dictatorships, which is stupid unless you are the ruler. Spoiler, you won't be. A dictatorship is a shit place to live. I like living in America because of its freedom, and an 'America' run by a dictator isn't America. In fact, its power comes from its freedom, and abandoning that is just a bad idea as well as morally awful.
Seriously: your argument with liking the idea of a roman empire: "Oh, I like wars where millions die as long as we conquer new places." We can't even hold Iraq. Seriously, what else was better about the Roman Empire vs. the Republic? Not a whole lot, it was mainly bigger. Extra time gave it some decent stuff, but it was mostly size.
And it won't win by force. Those in power love to play the force game, cause they will win. They only lose if it's so obviously unjust to apply force that their enforcers won't.
First, your comment here has no bearing on the discussion. I gave an example of how people have had it worse and won through peace, countering your point that Trump is a roadbump unless force is used.
Then you reply to that with "the modern world is just a soap bubble fueled on debt." It's just true enough to be very wrong, in that when a bank loans out your money it's in debt to you, but that's a pretty durable soapbubble. Sure it shrinks occasionally, but it never really pops and grows more than it shrinks. The reason why this is happening now is attributed to all manner of things, but the exponential growth has been happening for centuries at this point (yes the axes are skewed, but not awful enough to destroy the graph).
Saying nothing will change unless force will be used. It's what the FBI say on the internet, along with "I'm 13 years old but mature for my age."
Skallagrim
Well-known member
1. You're reading a whole lot into my posts, which makes discussion pretty pointless, because you don't read what I'm saying, only what you think I mean.
2. I'm actually on board with Cato the Elder, in the sense that I believe Rome should ideally have stayed a more modest republic without growing into an empire. This is the same argument used in America by the Bourbon Democrats like Grover Cleveland (my favourite US President), the Old Right, Barry Goldwater (my favourite also-ran), and more recently various later-day figures such as Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan (the latter of whom famously wrote A Republic, Not an Empire).
But Cato didn't get his way, and he was fighting against the tide. And so were and are the American examples I mentioned. I agree with their position, I would want them to win... but that's not happening.
So, to clarify, you have mistaken what I expect with what I'd like.
This is not to say the alternative is bad. The Roman Empire was, on the whole, not worse than what came before or after. Bad in its own way, to be sure. Good in its own way, too. The Principate really did have quite some things at which a man could marvel. As for freedom... the claim of restoring the freedom of the citizens was a key point of Augustus's ascent to power, so who knows how such things can yet be spun?
We are not Rome, we will never be Rome, and trying to keep viewing the US as a modern Rome, in any way, is blinding one's self to the realities the modern world faces.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
I disagree completely. Historical exceptionalism is just another form of presentism. Every place and time is special in its own way, but not so special that it escapes the course of history. The Romans thought they were unique, too. That their mos maiorum was an unprecedented bulwark against legal corruptions, and that the precepts of the Album were as holy as many Americans now hold the Constitution to be.
A delusion. In both cases. Republics always die. At most, what comes after stubbornly keeps pretending to be a republic, still. The Romans kept that up for centuries. I can easily believe the Americans will be no less dedicated.
This is freedom? what we are living in what we are going through this is freedom?
Brother we have children who are forced to wear masks to go to school, our lives are overtly regulated by an army of unnacountable buracrats who hate our fucking guts, at any moment you can lose your job because some social justice asshole decided today was the day you would be cancelled. You ability to bank can and will be taken away at will and an outrage mob can come for you at any time.
And if they decide to come in and murder you and your family and you defend yourself your assailants will walk free while you have to fight against a biased court to stay out of prision.
This is freedom to you? Really? We we had more freedom 20 years ago then we do now, your grandfather had more freedom then you do. He's a secret cultures? Countries.
They most idolize the quality they have least of. Ancient japan talked about honor all the fucking time it was a nest of backstabbing. Rome idoloized unity and just had endless civil wars.
And america and americans cant shut the fuck up about freedom but brother look around you.
Do you feel free?
Is it perfect? Hell no, and I'd be the first to tell you. But relative to the rest of the world and history? Yes. America pre 1970s til covid had either Jim Crow laws, slavery, martial law, and other shit. But yeah, America post 1970 or about til covid is the freest society known to man.
But meanwhile other people were on the move (long march through the institutions) to end freedom through what you talk about. But the pushback against them has begun, and we'll have a hard fight against them, but time and history shows peaceful protests for human rights consistently win.
Yes, which sucks, but we are already solving these problems. They won't be solved in a day or a year, but with the pressure (especially the market pressure) they are creating, they will be solved.
SchrodingersWehraboo
Well-known member
SchrodingersWehraboo
Well-known member
SchrodingersWehraboo
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Terthna
Professional Lurker
For some people, "autistic" is a euphemism for someone not being an apathetic nihilist, like them, and actually caring about something that isn't just tearing other people down.
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
More accurately, highly intricate, but pointless, knowledge of a subject gets associated with the fixation expected of autism.
