EU European migrant crisis - rolling deja vu edition

[Marduk]

Ironically, much like the stated original intent in the very concept is, refugee status should be ultimately temporary. There should be no compromise about this, because if it's given even as the slightest possibility, that opens a floodgate to abuses from various interested parties that will make the problem baloon until budgets and patience runs out. Say, refugee camps. On the face of it, they work as a temporary way to warehouse people from a country at war, civil or otherwise.

But what if the principle is stretched a bit, and they become essentially a city, a permanent settlement of people from some country that may have a low level ongoing civil war, or not, or is just being too unsavory in governing practices for the UN bleeding hearts and has deemed said people undesireable for more or less rational reasons? If scrutiny is relaxed on this and the temporary nature of the refugees, soon the growing refugee camps may merely end up being a free foreign funded social welfare system for this or that dictator to offload their poor and disgruntled social groups onto, so that they can be someone else's problem in every way they would be a problem to him otherwise. After all, as long as the refugee camp is safer and basic necessities are more available (for free!) than in the slums/villages of the third world country the refugees came from, there will be no shortage of wannabe refugees to inhabit it, and some of famous "shitholes" are setting that bar very low.
After all, what's the loss for them? The refugees get free room and board (something that may be uncertain even if they worked hard back home), the dictator gets rid of undesireables or just plain excess peasants or slum dwellers he doesn't know what to do with without the international outrage about gulags/purges/starvation, UN bureaucrats get to feel important and needed, who's there to complain?

 

[Scottty]

... and two generations later the grandchildren of those original "refugees" would still be living in that "temporary camp".

 

[The Original Sixth]

... and two generations later the grandchildren of those original "refugees" would still be living in that "temporary camp".

The goal would be to get them back home before that happens. Or introduce a minority of them into the national population. The last thing we should do is stick people in limbo.

 

[Marduk]

A fresh story examplifying the triumph of "pull factors" over geographical obstacles in an aggressive feat of attempted asylum shopping.

Mexico finds dozens of starving S. Asia migrants – DW – 08/16/2019

Mexican authorities have rescued 65 migrants from South Asia who were found starving and severely dehydrated. Once their nationalities are identified and confirmed they will be sent back to their countries.

www.dw.com

The migrants had flown from a Qatar airport on 24 April to Turkey and then to Colombia. They then moved through Ecuador, Panama and Guatemala before reaching Mexico.


Upon arrival in Mexico, they traveled by boat through the Coatzacoalcos River to the country's northern border. There is confusion as to why they opted to embark on the river as it does not lead anywhere close to the US border.

 

[Yokkiziikzekker]

Thank NATO for bombing the shit out of everyone.

 

[Marduk]

Thank NATO for bombing the shit out of everyone.

When did NATO bomb India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka? That's where this bunch of asylum shoppers is from.

 

[The Original Sixth]

A fresh story examplifying the triumph of "pull factors" over geographical obstacles in an aggressive feat of attempted asylum shopping.

Mexico finds dozens of starving S. Asia migrants – DW – 08/16/2019

Mexican authorities have rescued 65 migrants from South Asia who were found starving and severely dehydrated. Once their nationalities are identified and confirmed they will be sent back to their countries.

www.dw.com

And this is why asylum laws will be destroyed.

No doubt in time for a genocidal tyrant with a fondness for ovens. This is why globalism will fracture at a greater velocity; as people try and reach the countries that are the best in the world, they will abuse the laws for emergencies. And those countries will respond by clamping down or removing said laws.

 

[Scottty]

When did NATO bomb India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka? That's where this bunch of asylum shoppers is from.

NATO bombed some places, as part of their insane attempt to spread "democracy" by overthrowing stable (though oppressive) governments. This caused chaos in those places, and civil war. Lots of people started to flee - hence, refugee crisis.
But then... chancers from all over the Turd World decide to try their luck by claiming to be "refugees".

People who are genuinely facing genocide if they don't find refuge somewhere else, are being out-competed by people who are just looking for handouts.

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

People who are genuinely facing genocide if they don't find refuge somewhere else, are being out-competed by people who are just looking for handouts.

It's a shame for them.

 

[Comrade Clod]

It's a shame for them.

Yes but us doing something about it helps us avoid having it become policy. We really don't want genocide to become policy anywhere, real bad juju.

 

[Marduk]

NATO bombed some places, as part of their insane attempt to spread "democracy" by overthrowing stable (though oppressive) governments. This caused chaos in those places, and civil war. Lots of people started to flee - hence, refugee crisis.
But then... chancers from all over the Turd World decide to try their luck by claiming to be "refugees".

The thing is, being a citizen of a country with an oppressive government (particularly ones targeted by a government that's not an equal opportunity oppressor, see: Chechens), or just a generally terrible one though not exactly ravaged by a war, like Eritrea, is too considered a perfectly valid reason for a refugee status by the bleeding hearts, so no winning there really, short of forcing those countries to have economic security, prosperity and also a half decent democratic government, which as Iraq and Afghanistan show, doesn't really work.
Hell, despite NATO throwing lives and money at the lost cause of maintaining order in Afghanistan, Afghan refugees in western countries very much are a thing. So yeah, no choice will get the bleeding hearts to run out of refugees that they think need welcoming.
And then there is the legally recognized "special case" of Palestinian refugees for a whole another level of ridiculous.

People who are genuinely facing genocide if they don't find refuge somewhere else, are being out-competed by people who are just looking for handouts.

Yeah, the asylum laws in their current western interpretation were ridiculous before, but before this recent crisis and all the surrounding information spread, most of the future "chancers" had no idea how easily abuseable those laws are, so they weren't trying. Hell, most of the people in the west didn't know either. But once it became public knowledge that showing up with no documents, the right kind of a sad story and at least loose resemblance to the right culture is enough to turn a plain undesireable illegal immigrant into a highly protected refugee to be showered with first world social services and welfare, the cat is out of the bag.

 

[Bacle]

There seems to be an easy way to solve this; declare these NGOs 'human traffickers', seize the boats, and toss the crews in prison.

 

[Comrade Clod]

There seems to be an easy way to solve this; declare these NGOs 'human traffickers', seize the boats, and toss the crews in prison.

This is a terrible idea. For a lot of reasons, but most importantly that it would be such a blatant abuse of the term human trafficking that PRC judge would hesitate to use it.

 

[Bacle]

This is a terrible idea. For a lot of reasons, but most importantly that it would be such a blatant abuse of the term human trafficking that PRC judge would hesitate to use it.

Given they ensure human traffickers are able to keep operating, and in an easier manner than before the NGOs got involved, I don't see how labelling the NGOs traffickers themselves is much of a stretch.

 

[Comrade Clod]

Given they ensure human traffickers are able to keep operating, and in an easier manner than before the NGOs got involved, I don't see how labelling the NGOs traffickers themselves is much of a stretch.

I think this is a false causation. Traffickers operate off a desire of people to get somewhere. The NGO's merely prevent more deaths than would otherwise be occuring.

 

[Marduk]

I think this is a false causation. Traffickers operate off a desire of people to get somewhere. The NGO's merely prevent more deaths than would otherwise be occuring.

But that's a false pretense, as shown by the NGO's curious insistence on not unloading their rescuees anywhere on the southern coast of the Mediterranean which they set out from, and the rescuees setting out to sea with no means of getting anywhere (as in no outboard engine/fuel) unless they get "rescued" by someone. So yes, in effect they do have a desire to get people somewhere in particular too, camouflaged a bit by legalistic terms and excuses.
If they didn't hope to get "rescued" they wouldn't be setting out to sea and thus wouldn't need to be rescued, as such the NGOs enable the whole operation of the people smuggling route in its current setup, rather than a more expensive and legally risky one involving larger, more capable and more expensive boats, proper supplies, and smuggler crews that would be under major legal risk.

 

[Marduk]

UN: 45,000+ refugees enter Europe in 2019

A total of 45,505 irregular migrants and refugees reached Europe by sea since the beginning of 2019, the UN migration agency said Friday, Anadolu Agency reports. Of that figure, 859 died at...

www.middleeastmonitor.com

Interesting article containing freshest data on the topic.
The ranking of migrant arrival numbers is Greece->Spain->Italy now, at 23193, 14680 and 4664 respectively, quite a different picture from the same part of last year, and showing the sheer effectivness of Salvini's policy in this regard...

Despite Salvini's campaign against "rescue NGOs" and their reduced activity, migrant deaths enroute have fallen by almost half compared to last year equivalent period, proving said organization's propaganda to be just that.

 

[JagerIV]

Yeah, I think were definitely suffering a bit from the nature of a "refugee" and what people would be fleeing from, changing rapidly and dramatically.

Back in the cold war for instance, the West really didn't have to invest in any prevention of refugees: East Germany did that for us, and anyone who got out of there was generally a goodish person, or at least was more allied with us against our enemies.

When refugee status is a way to reward our friends (Communist defectors, people allied to us in a war we unfortunately lose like Vietnam), and hurt our enemies (getting the free thinking and ambitious to flee the communist states and deny them those resources while adding their value to our side), laws as loose as ours make a bit of sense.

When refugees are people from awful countries who those awful countries if anything want to leave, that's a very different dynamic and our system makes even less sense: German and Polish refugees are simply of a radically different type from Libyan or Salvadorian refugees, and the rules need to reflect that.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Yeah, I think were definitely suffering a bit from the nature of a "refugee" and what people would be fleeing from, changing rapidly and dramatically.

Back in the cold war for instance, the West really didn't have to invest in any prevention of refugees: East Germany did that for us, and anyone who got out of there was generally a goodish person, or at least was more allied with us against our enemies.

When refugee status is a way to reward our friends (Communist defectors, people allied to us in a war we unfortunately lose like Vietnam), and hurt our enemies (getting the free thinking and ambitious to flee the communist states and deny them those resources while adding their value to our side), laws as loose as ours make a bit of sense.

When refugees are people from awful countries who those awful countries if anything want to leave, that's a very different dynamic and our system makes even less sense: German and Polish refugees are simply of a radically different type from Libyan or Salvadorian refugees, and the rules need to reflect that.

Well, the real issue is that we never made that explicit because the left-wing refuged to do so. So even now it's very hard for Montagnards to immigrate; probably because they'd all vote republican and it would remind aging leftists that the Vietnamese are a brutal communist dictatorship thanks to their backstabbing during the Vietnam War.

 

[Arch Dornan]

The situation is interesting to see the effect of on the locals. There was a man on YouTube who claims to be a swedish local who puts out his experiences on his country hosting the refugees/migrants with all the trouble that entails.

What's interesting is the double think that occurs when someone appears leftist but shows cracks like how they can't stand to hear all the raping going on but once it gets shared they immediately clam up.

The man revealed details of that from his girlfriend's sister and so that sister denied him access to their father's funeral who the man was friends with.