ASOIAF/GOT Elendil & Numenoreans Beyond-The-Wall

[AspblastUSA]

How far can or would the Numenoreans conquer before it becomes both impractical to try covering that much ground, rule so many uncivilized and rape-loving Wildlings and possibly anger the North & Night’s Watch who may try just keeping them at a certain distance?

My thinking, which will be reflected in what I'm going to post as a proposition soon-ish, is that they directly conquer a fair chunk but not all, and leave the rest as dependencies/tributaries. This may well result in a divide in the Free Folk/Wildling population as well, as those who live under the tributaries will be more... well, savage than the ones who grow up in villages under Numenorian lords. That's not to say they're raping and pillaging but nonetheless not as settled. Let alone people in the far distance who were basically uncontacted.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

My thinking, which will be reflected in what I'm going to post as a proposition soon-ish, is that they directly conquer a fair chunk but not all, and leave the rest as dependencies/tributaries. This may well result in a divide in the Free Folk/Wildling population as well, as those who live under the tributaries will be more... well, savage than the ones who grow up in villages under Numenorian lords. That's not to say they're raping and pillaging but nonetheless not as settled. Let alone people in the far distance who were basically uncontacted.

Free Folk/Wildling divide

That reminds me of that North Remembers fic, there’s a “divide” in which the Free Folk are ones who maintain most contact and trade with the Northerners and have a pseudo-democratic society whilst the Wildlings are still raiders who provoke the Northerners, Free Folk and Night’s Watch

I expect that with the Numenoreans’ long lifespans, there would be attempts to gradually civilize the Wildlings. Because let’s face it, advanced technology and physical power or not, I can see Wildling men making “eyes” at Numenorean women and having grudges at being forced to be “Kneelers”

Speaking of women, I think a ban on bride stealing can occur

 

[AspblastUSA]

Okay. Let's try this again.

Rough sketch of my thinking about Beyond the Wall. The Elendili have directly annexed most of the southerly, more pleasang (such as the Far North can be) parts. The center of the civilization is near the Frostfangs in the west so that they can get the stone for their cities, though ports have been erected on the east coast for trade with Braavos and the like. I also proposed canalization between the Milkwater and the unnamed river to the east because the meme must live. North of there would be the aforementioned tributaries.

On civilizing the wildlings, I actually expect that the ones who live directly in/around Numenorian cities have probably been culturally Numenorized because unlike many actual conquests where you can keep going day to day, the foundations of Wildling culture are simply completely incompatible with a settled, non raiding lifestyle. There may be some holdouts but if the 196 landing is used by near a century later generations have passed growing up in walled towns and cities. Oh, I forgot to include it on the map but I imagine the Fist of the First Men has been converted into an Amon Sul/Weathertop type fortress overlooking the lower Milkwater. Probably after the last time the Ironborn got ideas.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I guess for awhile the remaining holdouts may end up becoming their equivalent of the Mountain Clans of The Vale and Bandits as well, until they send Rangers to track them all down one by one

As for trade on the coasts, what would they do longterm about raiders, slavers, reavers and/or pirates?

I think Elendil could make it an issue to the Greyjoys or the Targaryens to “please get them to stop this evil”

Just because they are deterred once via force of arms, doesn’t mean they won’t attack given the opportunity again

It would be pretty funny if they give a “Reason You Suck Speech” to the Essosi Slavers calling them “barbarians” by pointing out all THEIR EVILS and ill treatment of people

 

[AspblastUSA]

Early Gondor was a superpower at least partly because they inherited a perfectly militarizable fleet from the exile of the Elendili, so depending on your opinion as to where Numenorian shipwrights stack up to their Essosi counterparts they could be anywhere from a new regional power in the western narrow sea with a great many subpar ships to the sudden premier naval power in the known world. As for what they would do long term? Population replacement isn't entirely out of the question. Rohan was founded by giving Helm Hammerhand and his followers the land after they helped drive the hostile men who were inhabiting it before into the more desolate Rhun region after all. Anti-Piracy actions probably result in the burning of many a pirate stronghold.

During much of their stay the Ironborn actually have a shield in the form of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. The Iron Throne generally doesn't care what individual ironborn captains get up to at sea but would care very much if somebody burned down Pyke. Until relations with this kingdom become valuable enough to actually warrant taking the trouble of sitting on the Ironborn they basically have free reign to do what they like as long as they can escape back to the Isles before being caught. Compared to the Elendili though, they can drop reasons you suck speeches on basically everyone in the setting.

Oh and unrelated but they'll probably declare their undying emnity with R'hllor because as the thread I totally didn't accidentally post the map in pointed out, Fire and Shadow is a very particular phrasing in the Tolkienien mythos and Elendil probably heard it from the lips of Annatar and Ar-Pharazon more than a few times.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@AspblastUSA
Speaking of population, I think the Numenoreans maybe a minority to the Wildling population, so I guess over time their blood would be too diluted and some dudes end up with an obsession with blood purity like the Altmer from Elder Scrolls

I guess they’ll have a problem with Lords and Knights and say that they don’t actually give a damn and that ironically the Wildlings are in one way so much better, pretty much all of them are warriors and they wouldn’t exactly just give authority and ownership over to the mostly-only-guys who can swing a sword really well as they are sorta their own defenders

The human sacrifice or burning people alive will be something they all have issues with

I can see Melisandre having an encounter or two with the Numenoreans that sorta has both making accusations of evil

Plus to begin with, what morals or virtues does the Lord of Light’s religion espouse? Are they pro-charity, pro-defending others, anti-murder, anti-stealing? Or are they all just about burning unbelievers

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Since the Giants herd mammoths but don’t eat them, could they be used for say, making milk, cheese and butter?

Would be a very strange sort of farm animal

Say, what would the Maesters do? Send a guy over as an advisor/spy?

 

[AspblastUSA]

Speaking of population, I think the Numenoreans maybe a minority to the Wildling population, so I guess over time their blood would be too diluted and some dudes end up with an obsession with blood purity like the Altmer from Elder Scrolls

I guess they’ll have a problem with Lords and Knights and say that they don’t actually give a damn and that ironically the Wildlings are in one way so much better, pretty much all of them are warriors and they wouldn’t exactly just give authority and ownership over to the mostly-only-guys who can swing a sword really well as they are sorta their own defenders

The human sacrifice or burning people alive will be something they all have issues with

I can see Melisandre having an encounter or two with the Numenoreans that sorta has both making accusations of evil

Plus to begin with, what morals or virtues does the Lord of Light’s religion espouse? Are they pro-charity, pro-defending others, anti-murder, anti-stealing? Or are they all just about burning unbelievers

Had to crack out some quotes, but given that the Faithful/Elendili fled Numenor in nine ships there are probably less than ten thousand of them in total, even if they packed on like sardines. With that in mind latter generation 'Gondorized' wildlings (part numenorians) would make up the vast majority of the population. While some might worry about purity, the Elendili didn't seem particularly concerned when this happened in the actual history of Gondor and Arnor. The high nobility will be somewhat more preserved though, due to them being reluctant to marry too far below their station.

I bolded the part of your quote because if they're fleeing Numenor then the period of time where Sauron had convinced Ar-Pharazon to do specifically those things to the Elendili has literally just ended.

As for the Red Faith, I'm not an expert. They're wildly popular in eastern Essos, so they must have something to sway people though.

Since the Giants herd mammoths but don’t eat them, could they be used for say, making milk, cheese and butter?

Would be a very strange sort of farm animal

Say, what would the Maesters do? Send a guy over as an advisor/spy?

I don't see why you couldn't get mammoth milk and cheese. You could also use them as a draft animal, they used to be used in the hundreds of thousands for hauling logs in Thailand for instance. The ability to move larger quantities of wood/stone would certainly help with the ridiculous feats of Architecture the Numenorians like to do.

The Maesters would certainly send people but we haven't seen them be much for trying to steal technology out of people. We never hear about them trying to figure out how Braavos' pseudo-arsenal or the glassmakers of Lys do. If anything they'll send more polite inquiries.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I was thinking more along the lines of Maesters being suspicious of these possibly magical foreigners and sending a guy to spy and maybe get them killed with poison

 

[AspblastUSA]

There’s much more we’ll accepted magical people on Planetos than rumors of maybe magical foreigners in the far north; most famously the shadowbinders. The fact that the Maesters haven’t tried to mess with them suggests that they won’t do so with the Numenorians.

Now, whoever is in charge of magical studies at Old Town is definitely going to send Maesters up to investigate. Really an entire flock of Maesters will show up once various Numenorian techniques start being heard about.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

There’s much more we’ll accepted magical people on Planetos than rumors of maybe magical foreigners in the far north; most famously the shadowbinders. The fact that the Maesters haven’t tried to mess with them suggests that they won’t do so with the Numenorians.

Now, whoever is in charge of magical studies at Old Town is definitely going to send Maesters up to investigate. Really an entire flock of Maesters will show up once various Numenorian techniques start being heard about.

I think there’s a problem of distance, Maesters are mostly based on Westeros and are used to Westerosi Lords, sure they’ve gone to Essos and had some idiotic maesters try learning too much about smithing in Norvos but they mostly stick to Westeros

Maybe with time, the Maesters try diseminating “They’re long lives are definitely a mystery, perhaps they are another race like the Giants, Children and Ibbenese who are somehow able to interbreed with Men just fine. It is for sure however that their great architecture and weaponry is of mortal make. I myself have spent two decades amongst them, learning from a man who appears to be young but is indeed 5 decades older tha me”

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Say, how long would it take for a feeling of hatred and envy towards Numenoreans to occur?

Because of their long lives and superior technology and livelihood for envy and hatred because Numenoreans are very disapproving of Planetosi practices of rape, pillage and burn and maybe even because they consider many nobility to be assholes going on about “honor” and being shitty

 

[CarlManvers2019]

How much of Wildling culture could remain?

I think most would eventually go to the new towns, villages and cities being built

It would possibly reduce whatever warrior(if poorly equipped and untrained)and hunter culture Wildlings got

There may no longer be sleighs that use direwolf sized dogs around

They may name their kids at birth due to having less fear of them dying early. Probably no more cannibalism.

Not much to Wildling religion except for those tribes who worship Crabs and the Others, so a full conversion to Eru Illuvatar may occur or something

 

[AspblastUSA]

Lots to remark upon there. Let’s take a crack.

I agree about wildling urbanization but while they’d lose their old warrior tradition the Numenorians were quite martial themselves. I feel like the tradition of standing armies and organized militias would continue into this new kingdom.

I bet they keep the sleighs though, those would just be too useful to drop. Build quality would go way up though.

I agree 100% about the religion though.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Lots to remark upon there. Let’s take a crack.

I agree about wildling urbanization but while they’d lose their old warrior tradition the Numenorians were quite martial themselves. I feel like the tradition of standing armies and organized militias would continue into this new kingdom.

I bet they keep the sleighs though, those would just be too useful to drop. Build quality would go way up though.

I agree 100% about the religion though.

Warriors VS Soldiers

I think the latter would scare the hell out of the Night’s Watch and The North, to see them well equipped, well fed and TRAINED and coordinated

Every household has at least one sword, a knife, an axe and a steelbow

Steelbows....show giants will be walking artillery

Sleighs that were mostly for icey areas, not sure about non snowy areas

What would they do about Southern women who got “bride-stealed”? Send them back?

If Melisandre, Thoros or some other Red Priest comes by, I expect them to be VERY unwelcoming

 

[AspblastUSA]

What would they do about Southern women who got “bride-stealed”? Send them back?

If Melisandre, Thoros or some other Red Priest comes by, I expect them to be VERY unwelcoming

That first part is an extremely awkward question probably best delt with offscreen as it were. When a practice that is in essence kidnapping and sexual slavery is being dismantled it is a massive tangle of traumas that really should probably be left untouched by most authors. Let’s say the Dunedain thought long and hard and found a solution that worked best for most of these women. Be it returning to their families, being taken to a healing hall, or something else.

Rhllorite-Illuvitarian hostility is all but guaranteed though, you are right.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Rhllorite-Illuvitarian hostility is all but guaranteed though, you are right.

Enough to affect trade and diplomatic relations?

To begin with, aside from Braavos, I doubt they’d want to trade with any of those proud(of it)slaver states that may on occasion be funding pirates and raiders to attack them

If they are ever feeling particularly angry, going to those Essosi cities with dead or captured pirates and maybe pirate heads as a warning may occur combined with a speech that leaves them speechless

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@The Immortal Watch Dog
Say, any thoughts on this?

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

The Seven Kingdoms will be left as a matter of practicality if nothing else imho. The Dunedain are numerous, yes, but bringing a polity the size of the 7K is beyond them.

I have no idea why you think this when Numenoreans routinely annihilated Saurons armies to the point that Orcs would either kill themselves or run at the sight of them. Armies, by the by, far larger than anything fielded in Westeros. Occupying those lands and holding them would be difficult but Elendil held the whole of Mordor in a multi year long siege while running on fumes logistically.

They would probably trigger the whitewalkers. Their swords if treated as equivalent to valyrian steel would have them make short work though.

Their less advanced, less magically gifted descendants made ghost murdering weapons that could fuck intangible monsters. And one of their weapons was basically a strat bomb form of Greek fire so.

What good and practical reason could be made for Elendil and his people to go to war with or in the Seven Kingdoms? Maybe assist Robert?

they would be utterly dependant on the precious metals and foods of the Westerlands and the Reach until they got their own mines going. I can also see them making calls to Braavos and Volantis.

In theory Mace Tyrell could compel them to raise the white tree to defend the Dragon against the stag, in practice Elendil the tall is just as soon likely to tell Mace to fuck off as Aerys is scum and when Mace threatens him, well....throwing weight around against a guy who played the game of Thrones against Sauron and not only survived but managed to preserve a good chunk of his race and also happens to be a mind reader is a profoundly stupid idea.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Wait, why and how would Mace even enter the lands of the Eighth Kingdom? It’s past the North which they’re already at war with