ASOIAF/GOT Elendil & Numenoreans Beyond-The-Wall

[CarlManvers2019]

Here’s the premise

The Numenoreans under King Elendil find themselves on Beyond-The-Wall, Westeros, Planetos

They go onto colonize the land whilst fending off Wildling raids and even attacking them in turn for the occasional somehow successful bride-stealing or deaths

The Night’s Watch and The North and maybe Essosi Slavers eventually know/realise that they are there and are building up settlements and maybe consider attacking this growing threat

What does King Elendil and his people do with the threat of the forces of Morgoth long gone? But eventually knowing of the existence of other forces on this new world

They arrive in the year 280 AC

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@Tyanna of Pentos
@Shipmaster Sane
@Lord Invictus

Thoughts on this theoretical occurence?

And yes, I know it’s wank, also from what I vaguely recall of Silmarillion, Elendil wasn’t the warmongering or ambitious type

Also, would Wildlings actually be brave enough to attack?

 

[Deleted member 88]

Probably over take the Thenns and forge a kingdom there.

The lands beyond the wall are extremely harsh, while the numenorians should be able to deal with that(they are blessed above other men), it won’t be easy at first.

Eventually I expect they will subdue the various wildling tribes. And make contact with the NW and seven kingdoms.

Fighting the Others becomes so much easier .

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Probably over take the Thenns and forge a kingdom there.

The lands beyond the wall are extremely harsh, while the numenorians should be able to deal with that(they are blessed above other men), it won’t be easy at first.

Eventually I expect they will subdue the various wildling tribes. And make contact with the NW and seven kingdoms.

Fighting the Others becomes so much easier .

Why the Thenns? Why not Hardhome? That place was gonna become an actual city over time and I think they can deal with whatever possible stuff is haunting it

Oh wait, there maybe an inactive volcano there

What reason would they be able to give as moral justification to subdue them? If the Wildlings didn’t attack(yet or are too afraid and practical to)?

How would either see the new situation?

I don’t think the NW would want a possible actual army to fight

Also, the wildlings being peaceful under the Numenoreans sorta defeats their purpose of existing

Would the Numenoreans marry lesser men? Wildling Chieftains or Southern Nobles? How murderous would the latter get if marriage proposals were rejected?

 

[AspblastUSA]

Why the Thenns? Why not Hardhome? That place was gonna become an actual city over time and I think they can deal with whatever possible stuff is haunting it

Oh wait, there maybe an inactive volcano there

What reason would they be able to give as moral justification to subdue them? If the Wildlings didn’t attack(yet or are too afraid and practical to)?

How would either see the new situation?

I don’t think the NW would want a possible actual army to fight

Also, the wildlings being peaceful under the Numenoreans sorta defeats their purpose of existing

Would the Numenoreans marry lesser men? Wildling Chieftains or Southern Nobles? How murderous would the latter get if marriage proposals were rejected?

The Thenns must live in one of the most habitable parts of the far north, given they were the only tribe to settle down and develop a bronzeworking society. That implies that wherever they are is habitable enough for some kind of agriculture. That also means that if you're planning on subjugating the wildlings anyways you're starting with the ones who have the best infrastructure. Suddenly finding yourself in the complete wilderness instead of moving out to the colonies as planned means the Numenorian food situation is suddenly rather more dire than anticipated.

As for subjugating the Wildlings, even before Sauron's influence the Numenorians were actually quite big on claiming dominion over the lesser men of the mainland and seeing the neolithic Wildling tribes would definitely strike them as a people that they ought to bring under their influence and enlighten as they did before. They were also very much not above laying down the slappening on lesser men who acted hostilely.

Can't speak to intermarriaging. The Night's Watch would be torn between being unhappy about a true power rising in the Far North that they can do nothing about, and happy that somebody's laying down the slappening on the wildlings and preventing more raids.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

The Thenns must live in one of the most habitable parts of the far north, given they were the only tribe to settle down and develop a bronzeworking society. That implies that wherever they are is habitable enough for some kind of agriculture. That also means that if you're planning on subjugating the wildlings anyways you're starting with the ones who have the best infrastructure. Suddenly finding yourself in the complete wilderness instead of moving out to the colonies as planned means the Numenorian food situation is suddenly rather more dire than anticipated.

As for subjugating the Wildlings, even before Sauron's influence the Numenorians were actually quite big on claiming dominion over the lesser men of the mainland and seeing the neolithic Wildling tribes would definitely strike them as a people that they ought to bring under their influence and enlighten as they did before. They were also very much not above laying down the slappening on lesser men who acted hostilely.

Can't speak to intermarriaging. The Night's Watch would be torn between being unhappy about a true power rising in the Far North that they can do nothing about, and happy that somebody's laying down the slappening on the wildlings and preventing more raids.

I think they may call Elendil, “Magnar” and think him a God himself, what with long lifespan and physical abilities

What about Iron Age’rs like the rest of the kingdoms?

Rickard Stark may ironically turn his ambitions back North-er

 

[AspblastUSA]

I think they may call Elendil, “Magnar” and think him a God himself, what with long lifespan and physical abilities

What about Iron Age’rs like the rest of the kingdoms?

Rickard Stark may ironically turn his ambitions back North-er

The early Numenorians could well embrace such a title but I think that after Annatar's coming and the corruption of Ar-Pharazon that Elendil in particular will be quite strident about his non-divinity. Actually he'll be trying to introduce the worship of Eru Illuvatar if anything.

The Seven Kingdoms will be left as a matter of practicality if nothing else imho. The Dunedain are numerous, yes, but bringing a polity the size of the 7K is beyond them. Besides, on the surface at least they seem to have their shit generally together and won't trigger the civilizing instincts of the Numenorians in the same way. More concerning imo would be Aegon's reaction to the mighty, long lived strangers landing beyond the wall.

Rickard will absolutely focus north, at least short term. Calling Lord Stark when shit goes funny at the Wall is pretty normal for the Night's Watch, and the Dunedain rocking up and setting up a kingdom definitely counts. Personally, from what little we know of Rickard I think he'll be clever and pragmatic enough to want to support Elendil in his efforts to settle the wildlings and his own people because a new Kingdom that remembers the North as friends who aided them is such a vast improvement over the semi-nomadic raiders they currently have. (Plus, if the Night's watch becomes completely obsolete he may well try to petitition Aegon to disband it and return the Gift and New Gift to him, which would make him popular with his northern vassals)

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Aegon? You mean Aerys right?

I guess marriage alliances will take awhile as there won’t be much priority and the Numenoreans can’t be that much of a threat just yet

 

[AspblastUSA]

Yeah, I misspoke. Really, if you want the Dunedain to interact politically with the very late Targaryen/Roberts Rebellion era court it might be better to have them actually land in the 230s AC (Possibly 230, so that they're just establishing themselves in the middle of Thenn Territory when Brynden Rivers arrives at the wall) or even earlier.

As an idea, I might suggest having their arrival happen concurrently with the first Blackfyre rebellion in 196AC. The North (and the Iron Throne in general) is too busy to respond to the Night Watch's first calls that something fishy is going on and by the time it ends near a year later the outsiders have turned out to be a force that distracts and/or calms the wildlings rather than driving them at the Wall and they're written off as probably some kind of Essosi who can go and freeze to death if they want.

Over the next 60 or so years they'd grow and expand in Wildling territory but the IT would be too busy with the next three Blackfire Rebellions (and then the tragedy of Summerhall and the Ninepenny Kings) to really do too much about it. That would leave a well established (by human standards, it's still in the first Numenorian generation) new Dunedain kingdom in the north ready to begin flexing it's political muscles by the 260s-70s late Aerys period.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@AspblastUSA
So, Tales of Dunk & Egg in their time with the “High Men” Beyond-The-Wall? Or maybe over time they give them the name “Witch-Men” due to their long lifespans and abilities and because they distrust them

Just remembered, the Thenns are friends or have relations with the Giants, I think conquered Thenns may serve as diplomats and increased and better agriculture would mean Giants would want to stay nearby if only for the food

That is if the Numenoreans don’t just shoot them with their steelbows out of fear

Speaking of Bloodraven, how would they feel about Wargs/Skinchangers, Greenseers and the Children-of-The-Forest? There’s a bit of a theory that the latter have plans involving mental timetravel and manipulating events so as to make the fall of man occur

Late Aerys period.....maybe stuff happens like Varys trying to send “little birds” over, Tywin making a marriage proposal, Aerys making a marriage proposal or the Martells making one

What good and practical reason could be made for Elendil and his people to go to war with or in the Seven Kingdoms? Maybe assist Robert?

I doubt they would approve of the rape, pillage & slaughter of the Smallfolk and that maybe something that prevents Numenoreans from working with the Westerosi out of sheer disgust.

Also, something they had to beat out of the Wildlings and show why they’re disgusted with Bride Stealing

 

[CarlManvers2019]

A sadistic near instinctual love for war crimes is something Numenoreans would have to try steering the people of this new world from, I think

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

The Night’s Watch and The North and maybe Essosi Slavers eventually know/realise that they are there and are building up settlements and maybe consider attacking this growing threat

It's hard enough for people in this setting to commit to campaigns in the North of Westeros, let alone north of the wall, when all there is to fight is Dark-ages Starks and stone age Wildlings, the worlds largest military superpower being in one of the most logistically inhospitable regions on the planet makes any serious military endeavor doomed to failure.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

It's hard enough for people in this setting to commit to campaigns in the North of Westeros, let alone north of the wall, when all there is to fight is Dark-ages Starks and stone age Wildlings, the worlds largest military superpower being in one of the most logistically inhospitable regions on the planet makes any serious military endeavor doomed to failure.

What’s the Night’s Watch recruitment, equipment and infrastructure level at this point? I think the Watch getting as bad as it is atm is a recent development

Also, Dark Ages, isn’t that something only really said by guys from the Renaissance who didn’t account or care for all the art, research, knowledge-recordings and infrastructure being built around europe?

EDIT

In Hindsight it maybe very hard reaching that far inland

 

[AspblastUSA]

@AspblastUSA
So, Tales of Dunk & Egg in their time with the “High Men” Beyond-The-Wall? Or maybe over time they give them the name “Witch-Men” due to their long lifespans and abilities and because they distrust them

Just remembered, the Thenns are friends or have relations with the Giants, I think conquered Thenns may serve as diplomats and increased and better agriculture would mean Giants would want to stay nearby if only for the food

That is if the Numenoreans don’t just shoot them with their steelbows out of fear

Speaking of Bloodraven, how would they feel about Wargs/Skinchangers, Greenseers and the Children-of-The-Forest? There’s a bit of a theory that the latter have plans involving mental timetravel and manipulating events so as to make the fall of man occur

Late Aerys period.....maybe stuff happens like Varys trying to send “little birds” over, Tywin making a marriage proposal, Aerys making a marriage proposal or the Martells making one

What good and practical reason could be made for Elendil and his people to go to war with or in the Seven Kingdoms? Maybe assist Robert?

I doubt they would approve of the rape, pillage & slaughter of the Smallfolk and that maybe something that prevents Numenoreans from working with the Westerosi out of sheer disgust.

Also, something they had to beat out of the Wildlings and show why they’re disgusted with Bride Stealing

You could include Dunk and Egg, I had figured that the Numenorians wouldn't really figure in Westrosi anything really beyond rumors until much later on. Totally up to you/whoever puts pen to paper on this though.

For the Dunedain and the various magical elements of the far north: Giants are pretty passive all told so I actually think they'll get along well enough, even if the giants fight alongside the Thenns. That just proves they're smart enough to make alliances or docile enough to be tamed. As for the other magical elements, the various human mages don't show any particular signs of Sauronic influence in their workings and Greenseers/Wargs are some of the more... benign magical elements in Martin's world. Children of the Forest, it entirely depends on how they reveal themselves to the Numenorians (if they do at all).

Per Late-Aerys. Tywin doesn't really have much to betroth at the moment. Maybe Kevan or Gerion (if he doesn't go sailing off to the east to try and raid Valyria for that sweet loot and probably die). The Martells have Elia if she's not currently betrothed to Rhaegar, of course, but she's not in great health... Though Numenorian medicine may be a reason they want to send her to this new northern kingdom. Aerys has Rhaegar, and whether he would want to betroth him to the mysterious and powerful people of the far north depends on if he's pre- or post-duskendale.

That reminds me, early Aerys was fond of imagining massive civil engineering projects such as building irrigation for all of Dorne. If the Numenorians have started doing the whole megalithic construction thing they like to do by the time he's a young man he may be fascinated with them. Depending on how it swings his interactions could butterfly large chunks of the leadup to Robert's Rebellion. Hell, with there being a mysterious and magical kingdom of foreigners it may derail the whole Prince that was Promised obsession outright.

Elendil's son Anarion had three unnamed/unknown children. It is possible if one was a daughter that Rhaegar might get it in his head that she was the queen he needed to bear the Dragon's third head.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

You could include Dunk and Egg, I had figured that the Numenorians wouldn't really figure in Westrosi anything really beyond rumors until much later on. Totally up to you/whoever puts pen to paper on this though.

For the Dunedain and the various magical elements of the far north: Giants are pretty passive all told so I actually think they'll get along well enough, even if the giants fight alongside the Thenns. That just proves they're smart enough to make alliances or docile enough to be tamed. As for the other magical elements, the various human mages don't show any particular signs of Sauronic influence in their workings and Greenseers/Wargs are some of the more... benign magical elements in Martin's world. Children of the Forest, it entirely depends on how they reveal themselves to the Numenorians (if they do at all).

Per Late-Aerys. Tywin doesn't really have much to betroth at the moment. Maybe Kevan or Gerion (if he doesn't go sailing off to the east to try and raid Valyria for that sweet loot and probably die). The Martells have Elia if she's not currently betrothed to Rhaegar, of course, but she's not in great health... Though Numenorian medicine may be a reason they want to send her to this new northern kingdom. Aerys has Rhaegar, and whether he would want to betroth him to the mysterious and powerful people of the far north depends on if he's pre- or post-duskendale.

That reminds me, early Aerys was fond of imagining massive civil engineering projects such as building irrigation for all of Dorne. If the Numenorians have started doing the whole megalithic construction thing they like to do by the time he's a young man he may be fascinated with them. Depending on how it swings his interactions could butterfly large chunks of the leadup to Robert's Rebellion. Hell, with there being a mysterious and magical kingdom of foreigners it may derail the whole Prince that was Promised obsession outright.

Elendil's son Anarion had three unnamed/unknown children. It is possible if one was a daughter that Rhaegar might get it in his head that she was the queen he needed to bear the Dragon's third head.

Benign Magic....unless the user decides to use it for fucked up things like Varamyr Sixskins

Numenorean Medicine. If it saves Elia Martell, I can see relations blossoming, no need for a marriage, may even try doing trade if it ever becomes practical. Distance is too much.

I think Tywin may just fund some expeditions, if only for Aerys to be satisfied, if they actually DO turn up things, it's a sort of win-win for Tywin anyway

Sending over Numenorean Architects who send back or use the money in order to better Numenorean infrastructure maybe

I can see that happening, they're technically Northern people

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Where Beyond-The-Wall would they best get the material to make cities like their own? Rather than being mostly just wood

Though, I think deforesting the Haunted Forest could occur

 

[FriedCFour]

They would probably trigger the whitewalkers. Their swords if treated as equivalent to valyrian steel would have them make short work though.

 

[AspblastUSA]

So. I pulled up a map and the Thenn actually live significantly further north than I thought they did. You may have been on to something, but Hardhome still isn't the best place if they want to get into stone architecture. Give me half a minute to whip something up in MSPaint/Gimp.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

They would probably trigger the whitewalkers. Their swords if treated as equivalent to valyrian steel would have them make short work though.

I wonder how the Numenoreans would alert the rest of the Seven Kingdoms to the threat of the Others

That said, I believe it maybe possible to negotiate with them or see that maybe the Others are some sort of Ainur or Maiar who aren’t exactly fallen but rather alien

Wonder how the Others, who may exist in a Lovecraftian setting, to the Numenoreans going “DEATH IS A GIFT!!!” and finding out that Numenorean souls are sent beyond what may just be the afterlife

 

[CarlManvers2019]

How far can or would the Numenoreans conquer before it becomes both impractical to try covering that much ground, rule so many uncivilized and rape-loving Wildlings and possibly anger the North & Night’s Watch who may try just keeping them at a certain distance?