• The Sietch will be brought offline for HPG systems maintenance tomorrow (Thursday, 2 May 2024). Please remain calm and do not start any interstellar wars while ComStar is busy. May the Peace of Blake be with you. Precentor Dune

Election 2020 Election Fraud: Let's face it, this year will be a shitshow

ShieldWife

Marchioness
For a moment, let’s say that all of the mass murdering oppressive communist regimes weren’t being true to Marxism. Maybe we could even admit that Marx pointed out lots of legitimate problems - especially back in the mid-1800’s when they had little kids working in dangerous factories and mines 12 hours a day. But those excesses of 19th century industry have long been fixed, not by Marxism but from the prosperity created by capitalism. The only places that recreate conditions reminiscent of 19th century industry is communist China.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
But those excesses of 19th century industry have long been fixed, not by Marxism but from the prosperity created by capitalism. The only places that recreate conditions reminiscent of 19th century industry is communist China.

China isn't even communist these days - that turned out to be unsustainable under Mao - but fascist; and in the real "co-ordinate private industry and civil society to the State's desires" sense, not the "too right-wing for me to be comfortable with" sense. So our enemy of fascism here ... is saying that America being deeply economically entangled with a fascist regime is a good thing.
 
Last edited:

mesonoxian

Well-known member
Maybe you shouldn't have closed the mental institutions and let the mentally ill rot in the streets.



Until they quickly did an about-face and started denouncing him as a Jewish puppet.



The rally was a response to proposals to bring down a statue of Robert E. Lee, and in attempt to unite the various factions of the alt-right, as its name indicates.



So, the people brainwashed by literal generations of propaganda.



Conservatives were targeted for audits by the IRS because there had been a lack of oversight and multiple abuses of the law. If you can justify taking people from their children and



That your country has a high crime rate is not the USG's problem. The USG is not the world government nor should it be.



It was wrong when Nixon targeted the IRS at his political enemies and it was wrong when Obama did it.



Well, one-party democrat rule has led to literally no improvement and the situation in some metrics (rates of single parenthood, for instance) has literally gotten worse.



The vast majority of these incidents were criminals assaulting officers of the law, sometimes with deadly weapons. They weren't murders, but killings in self-defence. And I mean, the very idea that the President should directly involve himself in these incidents is a farce. The media blows each one of them up specifically because they're rare - and unjustified police shootings are even more rare than justified ones.



Violence is sometimes a necessity in police work. Now, there are some people who go a bit too far with it, and who are unnecessarily violent, but the solution to this is better training, less militarisation, on-the-beat policing to build rapports to local communities, and body cams to make sure the truth can be known about what incidents do occur.

Not abolishing the police to go back to the hue-and-cry of the dark ages.



Which explains why recent immigrants from Africa have done statistically significantly better? Or can these hypothetical racists in complete control of black people's destinies tell at a glance whether a black person he sees is a recent immigrant from Africa or a descendant of African slaves brought over centuries ago?



"Throwing money into the ghettos hasn't fixed the problems the black community faces - we just need to throw in even more money, and call it reparations for slavery this time!"

Of course, this doesn't work because:

A. There are a lot more problems facing the black community than a lack of money.
B. Money which isn't earned by work (and that includes the often very difficult and risky work of running and/or starting a business) tends to be spent frivolously and hence have no net effect on an individual's well-being. See the behaviour of lottery winners, oil states, and society heiresses for an example.

But then, when your stupid ideals inevitably fail, socialists like you always say it was because you weren't socialist enough. No surprise. And of course, the more money that gets thrown into these deep blue cities, the more money mysteriously comes into possession of the people in charge of them.



I mean, Trump made gains among black voters (as well as Hispanics, LGBTs, and even Muslims) in 2020 from 2016. He certainly picked up less than amongst Hispanics (especially among escapees from socialism who've seen what socialists do when they take over a country) but "rejection" would imply that they supported him even less in 2020 than they did in 2016. In fact, as exit polls show, Trump gained amongst all minorities and amongst women. His losses were among ... dun dun dun ... white males.



As I noted, the majority of "police murders" were lawful killings in self-defence. Now, power-tripping assholes amongst the police do exist, but their numbers will only increase with lowered budgets and an increase in rhetoric that sees the police as an enemy.



In some cities up to a third of small businesses are shuttered already. But of course, socialists like you don't actually care about them.

In both cases, I amk entirely willing to trade the social capital of these groups for the lives of people they would victimize.



The CCP are expansionist, imperialist, totalitarian ethno-nationalists. That our industrial civilisation and its supply chains is so heavily reliant on them is a moral shame and a strategic theat. They are enemies and should be treated as such.

The Iranian Mullahs are millenarian religious fanatics who have sponsored terrorism throughout the Middle East and beyond and want to bring about a nuclear war which they believe will spark the arrival of the 13th Imam, who serves as a Messianic figure in their religion. The deal is a pinkie-pie promise not to develop nuclear weapons, which they already broke before Trump entered office as Mossad has confirmed. They are enemies and should be treated as such.

But what's really surprising is that you side with the literal theocrats and fascists. They're contrary to all of your political positions, but you instinctively side with these immoral regimes that not only act as enemies to the US, but oppress and terrorise their own people. We should not be acting to contain and weaken them you say - better prostrate ourselves and kowtow!



Why? Opening China made a degree of sense in the context of the Cold War to split the communist bloc, as did the weakening of American industry in general, but the Cold War is over. Russia is a has-been with no power projection capability and an economy the size of Italy's. We don't need to support Beijing any more. Neither has the PRC shifted towards liberalism as a result of our policies - indeed, the opposite has happened, and the CCP touts its economic success to justify their regime to the Chinese populace.

And the Mullahs who run Iran are a millenarian cult (the "Iranian government" you talk about has no real power). Imagine Scandinavia was ruled by hardcore adherents of the old Norse religion, who wanted dearly to start a nuclear war so they could die in an aom bomb blast and go straight to Valhalla, and as a sidenote were obsessed with destroying England and gaining hegemony over Europe as a stepping-stone to their nuclear war, and to do this were causing terrorist attacks all over the continent.

But then you're so breathtakingly naive so as to think "governments shouldn't be a thing". Geopolitics is far beyond you.



I mean, the games media of the time did directly assault the 'gamer' identity with "gamers are dead" and other such statements. The ultimate inciting incident was not even those articles, which were themselves in response to an otherwise forgettable accusation of domestic abuse after the end of a failed relationship.

And the FBI literally did a full investigation (under Obama, no less) and found nothing worth taking seriously.



Yeah, right. You obsess constantly about how evil you are and how we stand in the way of your fantasyland socialist utopia.



The historian engages in a propagandistic, slanted reading of history which inflames tension and attacks the legitimacy of America and its institutions, going so far as the very Constitution itself. Now, the 1619 project certainly has a right to exist and be published - but it's so hilariously easily refutable (the South was a backwater and economic growth actually picked up after slavery was abolished, which doesn't make sense if it was the great secret of American success) that it shouln't be taken seriously. But it insists, not on having the right to have its voice heard, which it does, but on becoming the new historiographical orthodoxy - the prism through which America views its own history, and that all other positions are immoral and holding them makes you evil.



Requiring nuns to provide abortificients ... you're asking them to commit a grave sin in the Catholic religion, one which is deemed worthy of one of the most severe punishments, excommunication. You're asking them to, at least in their minds, damn themselves to Hell rather than accept that they have a right to live by their own self-chosen moral standards.

"The point of making the Christians offer a sacrifice to the Emperor isn't to make them transgress their most cherished beliefs about their only being one god, it's about making them give a show of support to the institutions and customs of the Empire."



And now you're outright lying about the facts of the matter. It wasn't a case of "turning away a gay couple" but of forcing a baker to make a public display of support for something which contradicts his religious beliefs. The gays could happily have brought any number of cakes and stuck a pin with two men in suits on the top of them - but they chose to force him to bake a custom work of art promoting gay marriage. There was even an exact parallel case in the UK, where the court ultimately made the same decision.

Because ultimately both cases were not even about restricting what may be expressed in public but about forcing people to express values they disagree with. And you wholeheartedly support that.

But then, that's what you anarchists did in Catalonia. Because ultimately anarchists aren't "anarchists" at all but totalitarian socialists (repeating myself here) who think they can skip Marx's "transitional phase" of total state domination and get straight to the fairyland socialist utopia (which is based, literally, on an 18th century French philosopher's romanticised beliefs about tribal and prehistoric peoples, which have been empirically debunked by historical and ethnographic study).



Creating a bloated centralised healthcare system with endless waiting lists.



Looting the productive elements of society until there's no more to loot, i.e. all socialist "economic policy" ever.
This thing where you cut a post into individual lines is hard to follow and doesn't actually address the points being made.

So let's just hit some points at random. First off, I'm old, but I'm not quite old enough to have fought against Franco. ;)

Also, you are right to criticize the ending of federal funding for the mentally ill by noted leftist ... Ronald Reagan. Also, most mentally ill people don't need to be institutionalized. I am mentally ill, and I manage to hold down a job and support myself.

Moving on, I don't have remotely the time or energy to argue about foreign policy. And it doesn't really matter what your opinions on healthcare or gay cakes are. My point was that with all of these you seem incapable of realizing that the people who disagree with you don't support these positions because you disagree with them. They support them for entirely other reasons and your being unhappy about it is just a fact. I hate to break it to you, but the left spends far more energy hating the Democrats than they ever spend on the far right. Antifa streetfights with Nazis, then they come home and bitch about Nancy Pelosi on the internet.

It's very Manichean, to divide the world up into people who adopt your worldview and people who hate your worldview and want to destroy. A very large number of people are perfectly indifferent to your beliefs, political and religious. Nobody cared at all about Hobby Lobby's owner's religious point of view until they tried to dictate what medical treatment their employees can have. The same with the nuns in your example. Nobody knew anything about them or had any interest in them until it became clear they were violating the rights we want to see protected for their employees. Once that is resolved, people will go back to not thinking about them.

I didn't think I would actually see somebody defend gamergate. I sort of had the impression that the people involved with it were embarassed by now. The whole point if "gamers are dead" was that everyone is a gamer these days. That gamer culture could just be called culture. The same way there is no film-goer culture or book-reader culture. But any given statement was a pretext at the anger over people having opinions on video games they didn't like, plus misogyny.

And it is unsurprising Trump's numbers improved across the board. The incumbent has a huge advantage in the US presidential election for some reason. It is hard to lose. Even G.W. Bush managed to pull out a popular vote win in 2004 after losing it in 2000. George H. W. Bush managed to do so by having a bad economy, a charismatic opponent, and having all the likability of wet cardboard.
Iran wants to take over the middle east in nuclear fire. Why else would the enemies of their be WORKING WITH ISREAL OF ALL COUNTRIES to fend off against Iran if they just want to have the capability for better power?

Why are we giving weapons to Taiwan and have had threats from China if they aren't impieralists trying to take over all of east asia?
I'm sorry, I thought you said this was your job? Iran and Saudi Arabia are the primary political foci of Shiite and Sunni power blocs in the mideast. SA and company have always used Israel more as a tool to focus domestic political aggression than a serious enemy. Since the Iranian revolution, the US has been largely backing Sunni powers (Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc.) and Israel, while the Soviets backed Shiite and other minority powers like Syria and Iran. SA working with Israel against Iran is very much to be expected.

As for Chinese imperialism, I don't really see it. They seem far more interested in gaining economic power than military power.
It's a totalitarian political doctrine based on the myth of the noble savage, a shoddy confirmation-biased reading of history, and a hilarious level of failure to understand basic economic concepts.



That you think a bunch of people trapped in the tendentious rambling dogmas of a racist nineteenth-century crank whose most basic predictions about the course the great communist revolution would take ("it'll deffo start in Germany, not Russia") are "pretty cool".

This explains a lot about you.



Part of their grab-bag of policy proposals includes ending capitalism and the nuclear family, both of which Marx proposed.



They're Marxists who've replaced "enemy class" with "enemy race" like a certain moustached Austrian (which actually isn't even that far from orthodox Marxism, since Marx called - and orthodox socialists like H. G. Welles continued to call well into the 20th century - for a grand race war in which "reactionary peoples" would be exterminated).



They're convinced that a certain group of people, based on distinctive inherited physical characteristics, are responsible for all their problems and everything wrong in the world, and represent an enemy who need to be defeated. They're racist.



I mean, comparing antifa to literal Stalinists who in the end either outright defected to the Nazis en masse, or supported them in their bid to take over Germany because they viewed the SDP as worse is supposed to make them look good?
Jeez, give me a minute to finish posting, will ya!? ;)

Marxism is based on the myth of the noble savage? I mean I wasn't expecting you to have memorized Capital or anything, but that isn't remotely right. Engels gets a bit of that going on in his discussion of "primitive communism". He isn't entirely wrong, communal societies are pretty common in low technology cultures, (though he gets more stuff wrong than right, because 19th century anthropology sucks) but it isn't a basis of communism. The basis of communism is economic analysis of industrial society.

Marx said racist stuff. So did a lot of other communists. So did plenty of scientists and philosophers of that era. Turns out western history is full of racist old dudes pontificating. So just like every other field, you take the good, shake your head at the bad, and move on. Otherwise you have to throw out almost all the art, politics, and science of the 18th and 19th centuries. Sounds like a recipe for rejecting western culture ;D

"Ending the nuclear family" is a funny way to talk about reverting to the traditional (and often maintained in black communities) custom of having multiple generations live in a single household. "Having grandma move in is Marxism" is a hell of a thing to see somebody say. Maybe your grandma is a lot more interesting than mine were, politically.

The rest of this is so wrong I find it hard to even start. Like acknowledging that billionaires have undue influence is racism. Cool, sounds totally legit. BLM hates white people. Likewise.

Comparing antifa to guys who beat up Nazis makes them look like guys who beat up Nazis. If that is good or not is I guess dependent on your position on Nazis. (I'm against them, myself.)
The best historic group to compare Antifa to are the Red Guards under Mao. They aren’t official agents of the government, but they terrorize dissidents and enforce the will of the establish without being limited by the laws and with a wink and a nod from the authorities.
Given that the police are often backing the racist groups they are opposing and actively targeting antifa, I'm going to say you're wrong about this.
I'm sorry, but you lost me right there. I actually had a "you wot mate?" moment. o_O You're saying that Communism, an ideology that has ruined countries, killed countless millions, and has created a non-quantifiable amount misery across the entire planet... isn't a bad thing?

I... yeah, I've not much to say to that. Holy crap.
I am saying that.

I mean I have problems with Leninist vanguard communism, but I don't think Marx's ideas are bad because they were badly applied. And by the time Stalin gets involved, the relation to anything Marx actually said is accidental at best. Marx is probably the most important economist of the last two hundred years for one thing. I disagree with certain very specific elements of traditional Marxism, but by and large I am for it.
But you see they only mess up the implementation every time the ideas are put into practice, it's not as if there's anything wrong with the ideas themselves, right, right? /s
This, but unironically. XD
China isn't even communist these days - that turned out to be unsustainable under Mao - but fascist - and in the real "co-ordinate private industry and civil society to the State's desires" sense, not the "too right-wing for me to handle" sense. So our enemy of fascism here ... is saying that America being deeply economically entangled with a fascist regime is a good thing.
I'd argue China falls short of fascism. It is definitely an authoritarian capitalist regime that violates human rights though, which is bad enough.

It would be great if the US extracted itself entirely from its economic participation in authoritarian regimes, but that isn't what Trump is doing. Trump is just throwing fits and trying to "win" at international trade. China is going to be a world power whether anybody likes it or not. They will eventually have the largest economy in the world. If the US actually wanted to stop participating in the horrible working conditions there, forcing US companies to close up the unsafe manufacturing plants there, I'd be all for it. But we won't, because doing so would cost US corporations money. That's why Trump has done anything about it and why Biden won't either.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Last post on this topic. Was already doing this when we decided to stop talking about the subject.

Also, you are right to criticize the ending of federal funding for the mentally ill by noted leftist ... Ronald Reagan.

Deinstitutionalisation started under President Kennedy, not Reagan, and continued through the 60s and 70s backed by left-wing movements such as NAMI and philosophers like Foucault.

My point was that with all of these you seem incapable of realizing that the people who disagree with you don't support these positions because you disagree with them. They support them for entirely other reasons and your being unhappy about it is just a fact.

I know why you support your positions. You believe that they will lead to the never-never-land of socialist utopia, i.e. a secular this-worldly form of the New Jerusalem. Which is why Christian socialism is such an oxymoron - apart from the fundamental flaws with socialism, why try and make a pale shadow of what God has promised us with our own hands? Why try and make a perfect City of Man when the City of God has already been prepared for us?

I hate to break it to you, but the left spends far more energy hating the Democrats than they ever spend on the far right. Antifa streetfights with Nazis, then they come home and bitch about Nancy Pelosi on the internet.

It's very Manichean, to divide the world up into people who adopt your worldview and people who hate your worldview and want to destroy.

Having seen very strong expressions of visceral contempt and hatred for conservatism in certain segments of the left, I find it hard to believe that you lot just don't care about us.

The same with the nuns in your example. Nobody knew anything about them or had any interest in them until it became clear they were violating the rights we want to see protected for their employees.

Why should Catholic nuns be made to participate in an act they literally see as premeditated murder? This isn't an issue of "healthcare" for them, but of making them directly participate in what they view as a very serious sin. Why do you insist on making them do it? It's not even as if these pills are particularly expensive or hard to find - it's literally an over-the-counter drug throughout the US. So it's hard to see any right being violated by not requiring them to provide such drugs.

Once that is resolved, people will go back to not thinking about them.

I can just sense the authoritarianism welling up here. I mean this seriously.


The whole point if "gamers are dead" was that everyone is a gamer these days. That gamer culture could just be called culture. The same way there is no film-goer culture or book-reader culture.

So because a large amount of people watch Star Wars, "Star Wars fan" culture doesn't exist and can just be called culture? Clearly there's a group that identifies themselves as "gamers" out there, and it doesn't correspond to all players of video games.

But any given statement was a pretext at the anger over people having opinions on video games they didn't like, plus misogyny.

There was a strong opposition to what they saw as ham-handed political messages being pushed into the media they liked to its detriment.

As for Chinese imperialism, I don't really see it. They seem far more interested in gaining economic power than military power.

Economic power and military power go hand-in-hand. Meanwhile, the Chinese are building up their navy and army, saber-rattling, testing new military equipment, trying to gain a power-projection capability. They actually have a quite worryingly viable route to world domination:




The basis of communism is economic analysis of industrial society.

Which is worth absolutely nothing, because the analysis itself is wrong:


It is a fundamental principle, if not an axiom, of Marxism that capital is a fiction and only exists as an illegitimate and parasitic phenomenon, which alienates from the workers part of the value created by labor. This is why Capitalism is called "Capitalism" and Marx's book about it Das Kapital.

However, Marx's own system contains a feature that can only be understood as reflecting the reality of capital. As Marx allowed, indeed celebrated, that over time the material conditions and modes of production change and improve, representing the economic progress of history, he overlooked the circumstance that this progress must then be ranked according to a system and scale of value. The quantity of labor may not change, but what it can produce, in quantity and quality, does. The ratio between quantity and quality of labor, or between the quantity of labor and the quantity of production, is called "productivity."

A dramatic example of this concerns agricultural labor and productivity in modern economies. In traditional societies, it takes from 85 to 90% of labor to produce enough food for all, including a surplus that supports the 10 to 15% of non-agricultural labor. This percentage persisted in some African countries who adopted socialist policies at independence, perhaps taking seriously the assertion of celebrated communist author Jack London that a worker who is more produtive than his fellows is already a "scab," i.e. strike-breaker -- neglecting that increased productivity is part of Marx's own theory.

In the United States, the percentage of the population that was in farm labor dropped below 50% by 1880, and the percentage of the population that was rural dropped below 50% by 1920. Farm labor was down to 27% by 1920, 21% by 1930, 17% by 1940, 12% by 1950, 6% by 1960, 3% by 1970, and only 2% by 1980. In other words, there was a trend; and the trend was that agriculture became more capital intensive. One person driving a combine, which harvests, threshes, and bundles wheat, can do in a day what it used to take a vast workforce to do less quickly. Seasonal workers are still needed to harvest certain things, like fragile fruit -- but "smart" mechanical pickers will soon be able to do this.

Thus, the vast number of Egyptian masons and other laborers (including unskilled peasants drafted into the corvée during the season of the Flood) who could produce a pyramid, an essentially (socially) useless object, would now be put to better use producing the consumer and capital goods of an industrial economy. The difference in productivity between the pyramid builders and automobile makers is covered by Marx with a version of Hegel's dialectic, which is supposed to produce ever more complex and sophisticated structures with each iteration. Be that as it may, this effectively introduces a new variable into the equation of value. A quantity of automobile labor differs in a different dimension of value from an equal quantity of pyramid labor. Nothing prevents Marx from identifying such a scale in the dimension of dialectical progression. However, there is already a name for such a scale of value: It is the value of capital, including human capital.

Pyramid building is labor intensive production, while automobile building is capital intensive production. Capital intensive production requires skills and knowledge, whose fruits may be effected by the industrial workers, but which may only be conceived and held systematically in the consciousness of the industralist, i.e. the Henry Ford. Yet even the level of capital development represented by pyramid building, whose products remain marvels of human achievement (at least for their audacity, scale, technical achievement, and durability -- not unlike the Eiffel Tower), is historically credited to one genius, the semi-divine III Dynasty architect Imhotep.

Marx's denial of the existence and necessity of capital means that his own theory is incoherent, since it denies but does actually contain a scale of value, which we can now recognize as that of capital, to explain improved modes of production, increased productivity, and more technologically and aesthetically sophisticated products. His entire theory of the historical dialectic of class struggle depends on this, and yet it is simultaneously refuted by it.

In order to disparage the success of capitalism, modern Marxists are reduced to anhedonic and anaesthetic condemnations of "consumerism," recycling moralistic arguments originated by Plato. In other words, Marx, who appreciated that industrial workers were better off than peasants, now inspires people who want the "masses" returned to agriculture, perhaps so that the limos of the elite, e.g. Al Gore, will not get caught in traffic.

....

The needs of the "English petty bourgeois" are thus not "false needs", however dismissive Marx sounds, but true needs in relation to a capitalistic mode of production -- needs which will change over time, in a historicist sense, as the mode of production changes. As a "science" of history, Marxism would succeed or fail to the extent that it could actually predict the evolution of production and its various effects.

Marx thought that as capitalism had replaced feudalism with a new mode of production, which was more productive and efficient, the same thing would happen to produce a replacement for capitalism. In the end, as the workers were impoverished (when capitalists drove down wages) and the number of capitalists dwindled (as competition was replaced by larger and larger monopolies), the capitalists would end up with no one to sell their goods to and nothing to do with the capital derived from their profits. This would produce increasingly severe credit and banking crises, until the proletariat would easily tip over the whole rotten structure and replace it with a classless society.
Centralisation of the means of production and socialisation of labour at last reach a point where they become incompatible with their capitalist integument. This integument is burst asunder. [Capital, Vol. I, p.837, Charles H. Kerr & Co., Chicago, 1906, translation by Edward Aveling, quoted by Thomas Sowell, On Classical Economics, Yale, 2006, p.170]

Already in this we find the essence of the fallacy of Marxist economics. Marx believes that as the dialectic of history evolves new modes of production, greater productivity and greater wealth will be created, ultimately eliminating the need for alienated and exploited labor. However, there is not a variable in Marxist value theory to account for greater productivity. If labor (or "socialy necessary" labor) creates value, then a greater quantity of labor will create greater value, but only in quantity, not in kind. More labor for pyramid building just builds more pyramids. Thus, some other variable is involved besides labor. In fact, that is capital. Labor intensive production gives way to capital intensive production, and greater capital means great productivity, not just in quantity, but in kind. But Marx does not believe that capital exists, which is why capitalism is called "capitalism." This means that Marxism cannot explain increased productivity. And then Marxism also contains another trend disparaging to productivity as such. Jack London, less well remembered now as a communist than as an author, said that a worker who is more productive than others "is already a scab," i.e. a strike breaker. Thus, the view seems to be that increases in productivity are part of the exploitation of labor.

Unfortunately, without such increases, 90% of labor would still be involved in agricultural production, while in the United States that is now less than 2% of labor, the rest of which goes into producing other things. Those "other things" are what pose the problem for an economic system like Marxism. Since British industry was largely involved in building railroads in Marx's day, he seems to have actually believed that, once the railroads were built, there would be nothing for that workforce, or its capital, to do. But this is the key to the whole meaning of capital. Capital is knowledge. Capital is imagination. Capital investment may be thought of as the construction of machinery, but the machinery, with its use and purpose, must first be conceived. The new purposes require that new products be thought of. But then with the conception of new products, new uses, and new purposes, the machinery may only be one element, or no element, in it. Simply a different way of doing things represents new knowledge and new capital. Thus, we have idea in modern economics of "human capital," where some people simply know how to do things better than others. Also, the value of capital can simply evaporate in misconceived investments. "What is sunk is sunk," is the principle: bad investments, into which capital has been sunk, must at some point be written off. It is "sunk."

Marx's thesis of the fictional nature of capital is thus equivalent to his lack of imagination regarding what it would be possible for people to do with their capital. That entirely new products and industries could be conjured up, to be brought to life with capital investment, was a process that was simply off the radar of Marxist economics. Perhaps he thought that the unexploited workers would sit down one day and simply begin producing cell phones, with the conception perhaps spontaneously coughed up by the Hegelian dialectic. No. Since Marx was the kind of person who would never know what to do with capital, he did not believe there was anything to do with it. This is a common state of mind, and it is still about the level of economic understanding of much modern political discourse.

"Ending the nuclear family" is a funny way to talk about reverting to the traditional (and often maintained in black communities) custom of having multiple generations live in a single household.

They are free to live according to that way of life - they are not free to try and force it on others as part of a political program.
"Having grandma move in is Marxism" is a hell of a thing to see somebody say. Maybe your grandma is a lot more interesting than mine were, politically.

I mean, BLM leaders have admitted they view themselves as Marxists on video. Why are you even trying to defend them from this accusation, given that you see Marxism as good?

Comparing antifa to guys who beat up Nazis makes them look like guys who beat up Nazis. If that is good or not is I guess dependent on your position on Nazis. (I'm against them, myself.)

The KPD supported the Nazis in their effort to end Weimar democracy because they hoped to find themselves on top, just like Stalin carved up Poland like a thanksgiving turkey between him and Hitler, then gave the Nazis the oil they needed to conquer France and level British cities. Also, even if you're fighting Nazis, it doesn't automatically make you good. It just makes them worse than you.

I mean I have problems with Leninist vanguard communism, but I don't think Marx's ideas are bad because they were badly applied.

This, but unironically. XD

He kinda disagrees with the thought that his ideas even have to be applied:


Karl Marx (1818-1883) did not have a theory of morality; he had a theory of history. Thus, Marxism was not about right or wrong but about what will happen in history. Marx was contemptuous of people who judged things in moral terms. When diehards say that Marxism has actually never been "tried" (despite what Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Ho, and Daniel Ortega thought they were doing), they don't understand that Marxism was not a rule for behavior or a program for action; it was supposed to be the theory of a deterministic mechanism that will produce the future, a theory of actions that will arise spontaneously because of historical circumstances -- although we can infer what kinds of actions people, including ourselves, will be taking -- after all, Marx said that the purpose of his work was to change the world, not just understand it. It is the theory, however, the world will change because of the objective economic conditions, not because of some decisions we make.

The whole of communist history is a series of desperate attempts to understand why this didn't happen while avoiding the obvious, yet unthinkable conclusion.

However, although nominal wages were falling in the United States from 1865-1897, apparently in line with Marxist expectations, real wages were actually rising, and there didn't seem to be a problem with over-production or with capital investment. Marx's own data showed rising real wages, as in Britain they rose by 80 percent in the last half of the 19th century. Recognizing that things weren't going as predicted, Lenin (Vladimir Ulyanov, 1870-1924) proposed that colonialism and imperialism were relieving the stress on capitalism and had temporarily derailed history: Colonies were a safety valve for excess capital and over-production; and the exploitation of colonies enabled the capitalists to buy off the proletariat at home. But Lenin's own data showed that most foreign investment was in other capitalist countries, and it is hard to imagine how an impoverished colonial population could buy things that the proletariat back home couldn't afford. Nevertheless, Lenin's theory at least addressed the issue.

When the Russian Revolution came, Lenin and his colleagues had to address the paradox that according to orthodox Marxism Russia was not ready for a real communist revolution, since it had never passed through the necessary stage of capitalism itself. Although developing quickly enough, and the fourth largest economy in the world in 1914 just because of its size (it had been the largest through much of the 19th century), Russia was still largely a feudal society. Lenin died before much sense could be made of the situation, especially when his programs caused the economy to collapse and he had to retreat from an attempt at pure communism into the semi-market economy of the New Economic Policy (the NEP). Subsequently, Stalin (Iosif Dzhugashvili, 1879-1953) followed the principle that the Russian Revolution would substitute a benign replacement for capitalism, namely "socialism," which would do the same job of industrialization without capitalist exploitation. Meanwhile, the new Russian state, the Soviet Union, would fight against imperialism and work for de-colonization and national liberation. If imperialism and colonialism could be ended, then capitalist economies would revert to the dynamic described by Marx and communism would develop there in the natural way.

With the Great Depression, which looked like just the sort of credit and production collapse that Marx had predicted, and which gave many Westerners the impression that Stalin's programs were producing better results in the Soviet Union, things seemed to be getting back on track. Then, when capitalist countries joined in to help defeat what should have been their own best hope, fascism, things really started looking up. The post-war world then began to see the start of de-colonization. For fear of "neo-colonialism," newly independent countries were advised to nationalize foreign holdings and limit capitalist exploitation (i.e. foreign investment). Stalin's Five Year Plans were seen by people like the new Prime Minister of India, Jawaharlal Nehru (1889-1964), as the proper way to modernize an economy.

Over the years, however, the countries that took this kind of advice the most seriously experienced only failure and stagnation. Nehru's great plans in fact condemned India to many decades of little improvement in its standard of living. But India was in good shape compared to Africa. By the late 80's, most former African colonies had lapsed into military dictatorships under which the standard of living was actually lower than it had been when they were colonies. All the modernistic and socialistic rhetoric of the original leaders of African independence, like Kwame Nkrumah (1909-1972) in Ghana, had turned out to be nothing but a mask for incompetence, corruption, and naked power. Instead of foreign investment, African leaders demanded foreign aid delivered directly to them. Most of that was either wasted on useless projects or diverted into their own pockets: leading to the bitter characterization of them as "Swiss bank account socialists."

Meanwhile, the once admired economy of the Soviet Union showed what it was truly made of: corruption, inefficiency, and irrationality on a vast scale. Although everyone expected that the Soviet Union's own economic statistics were unreliable, even the CIA greatly overestimated the size of the Soviet economy -- today one even hears the accusation that they did this deliberately to magnify the Soviet threat and perpetuate the Cold War (pursuant to the bureaucratic self-interest of the CIA -- which means that such an accusation could originate either from attacks on capitalism or simply from attacks on big government and bureaucracy). Outside of Moscow and Leningrad, which were bad enough, the Soviet Union was virtually a Third World country. One result today is that many who still admire Marxism and socialism have decided that it is virtuous to be poor, and that the ruined and miserable economy of a place like Cuba is a desirable "ecotopia" -- kinder to the environment than capitalism. This would be profoundly astonishing and mortifying to Karl Marx himself: the whole point about the evolution of communism is that it would be more productive and produce greater wealth for all than capitalism. A socialism that simply perpetuated poverty would be worthless -- a return, indeed, to what Marx called "oriental" despotism and a slave economy. Yet, as I have noted, it is the inevitable logical consequent of the denial of the existence of capital that the means of the development of greater production and greater wealth would themselves be destroyed. The fate of Marxist economies demonstrates this beyond a doubt.

I'd argue China falls short of fascism.

The fundamental basis of the Chinese economy is corporations which are privately owned but State-controlled, and its ideological backing is a nationalist form of socialism with a side of extreme Han chauvinism (to the point that incidents like Chinese professors stating that all European languages are merely dialects of Mandarin, and European history is a falsification based on Chinese history, have happened).

China is going to be a world power whether anybody likes it or not. They will eventually have the largest economy in the world.

Your social credit score just increased by ten points.
 
Last edited:

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Given that the police are often backing the racist groups they are opposing and actively targeting antifa, I'm going to say you're wrong about this.
Well, you are right in that the police often back racist groups, if by racist you mean BLM or Antifa, which are pretty racist by any reasonable definition of the word.

But no, the police don’t back the people you consider “racists” over Antifa. The police all too often serve as armed escorts for Antifa - looking the other way while Antifa commits assault or vandalism and then coming in to arrest people who try to defend themselves, often ridiculously overcharging people who defend themselves and win.

If the authorities didn’t support Antifa, they could end the riots and terrorism in a week. The FBI could just monitor the electronic communication and find the ringleaders and financial backers, use RICO laws to put them away for a few decades each and the problems would cease nearly overnight. That is what would happen if right wing extremists existed and caused even a fraction of the harm left wing extremists are.

They don’t do that because Antifa are doing the establishment elite’s bidding. Of course, when those elites achieve their endgame, Antifa will probably get their own Night of Long Knives equivalent.
 
Last edited:

Isem

Well-known member
Well, you are right in that the police often back racist groups, if by racist you mean BLM or Antifa, which are pretty racist by my reasonable definition of the word.

But no, the police don’t back the people you consider “racists” over Antifa. The police all too often serve as armed escorts for Antifa - looking the other way while Antifa commits assault or vandalism and then coming in to arrest people who try to defend themselves, often ridiculously overcharging people who defend themselves and win.
Technically speaking that's less the police themselves and more the people holding their leash. Now one can argue that they should do more to try and slip said leash but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the police's view of them.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Technically speaking that's less the police themselves and more the people holding their leash. Now one can argue that they should do more to try and slip said leash but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the police's view of them.
Yes, what you say is true. It’s not primarily the police’s fault, they are being given bad orders by higher ups, or in some cases it’s DAs not prosecuting even after the police have made arrests.

But even while they aren’t the primary problem, even though they are being given bad orders, their behavior is still a problem and they are still morally culpable for both their actions and inactions.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
I'm sorry, I thought you said this was your job? Iran and Saudi Arabia are the primary political foci of Shiite and Sunni power blocs in the mideast. SA and company have always used Israel more as a tool to focus domestic political aggression than a serious enemy. Since the Iranian revolution, the US has been largely backing Sunni powers (Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc.) and Israel, while the Soviets backed Shiite and other minority powers like Syria and Iran. SA working with Israel against Iran is very much to be expected.

As for Chinese imperialism, I don't really see it. They seem far more interested in gaining economic power than military power.
Mainly because without Trump SA and Isreal are unlikely to work together while the US backs Iran with nukes therefore ending any hope of peace as Iran "accidently loses" a nuke that winds up wiping out isreal...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH China not going for military power? They have increased thier mimitary ten fold to try and compete with US. They are eyeing Taiwan. They are nearly on a war footing
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Of course China wants military power, they are wisely avoiding military conflict now in favor of not only economic growth, but also developing infrastructure and establishing economic advantages over others, including the west in some regards. China would be fools to get into a large military engagement at this point, but a few decades down the road they’ll be a bit more willing and able to do so, especially if guys like Biden are in office in the USA between now and then.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
10 years we will be in war with China maybe less. I am calling it now
I hope not, but you might be right. I don’t know if either the USA or China want to get into a full scale hot war, but I could imagine some smaller conflicts over dominance of some weaker nations. I think that China will start its more overt military activity in their own backyard, where it will be cheaper and easier for them to project their force and where other nations are going to be less anxious to interfere with.

I’m thinking Taiwan. If China conquers Taiwan, what will the world do? What will America do? Probably nothing, which will likely embolden China to aggressive actions outside of their backyard.

Edit:
We are so far off topic now, this thread is just miscellaneous rants.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
I hope not, but you might be right. I don’t know if either the USA or China want to get into a full scale hot war, but I could imagine some smaller conflicts over dominance of some weaker nations. I think that China will start its more overt military activity in their own backyard, where it will be cheaper and easier for them to project their force and where other nations are going to be less anxious to interfere with.

I’m thinking Taiwan. If China conquers Taiwan, what will the world do? What will America do? Probably nothing, which will likely embolden China to aggressive actions outside of their backyard.

Edit:
We are so far off topic now, this thread is just miscellaneous rants.
Taiwan is exactly where I am saying
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Like acknowledging that billionaires have undue influence is racism. Cool, sounds totally legit. BLM hates white people. Likewise.
Sorry, I know that I’m continuing a tangent, but I just noticed this and had to rely.

What is it that right wingers get called when they bring up billionaires or corporations that have to much power or influence? Racists, that’s what. If anybody mentions George Soros, what do the left say: it’s an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. It’s similar when the right talks about the ridiculous amounts of influence that any big corporations has, the supposed left sides with big business every time.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Wow. This is wrong on a lot of levels. First off, I don't think Marxism is a bad thing. I have a few differences with orthodox Marxists, but they are pretty cool. But even if it were a bad thing, there is nothing especially Marxist about BLM. Marxism is a specific set of analyses of economic relations and prescriptions which just aren't a part of BLM. The people who particpate in it aren't mostly Marxists and their activities don't have anything to do with Marxism. And they are anti-racist, so that part is just wrong.

Antifa isn't a single group, and most of them despise the Democrats. Antifa are more like the communists who beat up the brownshirts. As for LARPing, I think they manage.
Careful. Admitting that you're a tankie is a bannable offence on this site.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top