Dystopian Europe

[The Whispering Monk]

Obviously the cycles can be slower than one generation.

The other part very rarely mentioned is that we're actually seeing a bit of a revival in the US. A number of younger people are stepping into churches all over to look for what they're missing.

 

[Marduk]

The other part very rarely mentioned is that we're actually seeing a bit of a revival in the US. A number of younger people are stepping into churches all over to look for what they're missing.

True, USA is in a bit of exceptional situation compared to most western countries in this regard on account of how instiutionally divided its Christianity is, it has some independent churches functioning in more or less traditional way while also not being subverted by the woke nor dying from disintrest of increasingly secularized population.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Frankly I prefer people turning to religion than liberalism and progressivism and anything that is connected to it.

 

[LordsFire]

That's never going to happen.

Atheism and agnosticism are too well entrenched now, and honestly I wouldn't want the West to go full on religious again.

Why not?

What is supposed to make atheism and agnosticism any more resistant to being pushed out of cultural primacy than any other ideology?

 

[TheRejectionist]

What is supposed to make atheism and agnosticism any more resistant to being pushed out of cultural primacy than any other ideology?

My take, as someone who just woke up (hello 8:17 am in Europe), is that somehow you have to remove the sex revolution and WW1-2 from memory.

I wouldn't be surprised if atheism and agnosticism started to grow exponentially from these three events.

 

[Jormungandr]

Why not?

What is supposed to make atheism and agnosticism any more resistant to being pushed out of cultural primacy than any other ideology?

Because too many people are atheist and agnostic now, and that number is only growing: Not every atheist or agnostic is batshit insane Left, but most batshit insane Leftists are atheist/agnostic, unfortunately. The amount of people finding or converting to Christianity is dwarfed by those who aren't or think of it all as being Fairy Tales, and there's zero chance of that trend reversing.

To be frank? The World Wars' effects basically killed Christianity in Europe.

 

[Terthna]

Except Christianity has overcome this to a large degree. 70+ generations and counting.

Not really; they just kept creating new denominations to switch to, which essentially are different religions in many cases.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Not really; they just kept creating new denominations to switch to, which essentially are different religions in many cases.

Like Mormonism.

Which even my Nigeriàn Protestànt friends càll "Science fiction Christiànity".

You know how us Càtholics hàve the immàculàte conception?

Well, LDS Church took the second term literàlly.

If I remember correctly, they àlso hàve pàssàges in which they cleàrly stàte you càn àscend to Godhood.

 

[ATP]

Not really; they just kept creating new denominations to switch to, which essentially are different religions in many cases.

In protestant cases.
old eastern churches,orthodox and catholics are the same as they were...in our catholic case,till current pope come.

 

[LordsFire]

Because too many people are atheist and agnostic now

And 300 years ago, something like 99% of 'westerners' were at least ostensibly Christian.

How does 'lots of people believe this now' in any way mean that there will be a lot less that do so in the future?

Atheism is not unique to the modern era, after all.

 

[TheRejectionist]

And 300 years ago, something like 99% of 'westerners' were at least ostensibly Christian.

How does 'lots of people believe this now' in any way mean that there will be a lot less that do so in the future?

Atheism is not unique to the modern era, after all.

The atheism of today is à commerciàlized parasitic nuisance that is made to demoralize and make accept the unacceptable for a brave new world.

 

[StormEagle]

Honestly speaking, I’m not even really Christian. Yet I find even some of the most fundamentalist nut bags infinitely more tolerable than a good portion of the atheists I’ve interacted with.

Most of the fedora brigade have this sneering arrogance about them that I just find infuriating.

 

[ATP]

The atheism of today is à commerciàlized parasitic nuisance that is made to demoralize and make accept the unacceptable for a brave new world.

Indeed,if they win they would introduce their real religion.I mean,satanism.

 

[Jormungandr]

Indeed,if they win they would introduce their real religion.I mean,satanism.

sigh This is why people look at religious people and think "nutjobs".

Being an atheist does not mean you're a Satanist or anything else; possibly degenerates because most degenerates are atheist, yes, but while most degenerates and freaks are atheists, not all atheists are degenerates and freaks.

Honestly speaking, I’m not even really Christian. Yet I find even some of the most fundamentalist nut bags infinitely more tolerable than a good portion of the atheists I’ve interacted with.

Most of the fedora brigade have this sneering arrogance about them that I just find infuriating.

Unfortunately this is also true. At least most Christians are civil and you can have a good conversation with them.

The woke nutjobs? Yeah, not so much.

It is fun to watch them degenerate into further purity spirals, however, and turn on their own.

And 300 years ago, something like 99% of 'westerners' were at least ostensibly Christian.

How does 'lots of people believe this now' in any way mean that there will be a lot less that do so in the future?

Atheism is not unique to the modern era, after all.

The Modern Era is unique because of the after-effects of the First and Second World Wars. No other wars in history has equalted that destructiveness and death on such a scale.

They effectively killed mainstream Christianity in Europe as it had been in the past because of how destructive they had both been, especially the First, and the trend of people becoming more atheist or agnostic stems from them.

 

[Terthna]

In protestant cases.
old eastern churches,orthodox and catholics are the same as they were...in our catholic case,till current pope come.

True, but that's because people decided to create new denominations of Christianity instead of trying to change them. Although that said, the Eastern Orthodox church is an offshoot of the Catholic church, which itself is a different beast altogether from the original Christianity that Paul founded, so it's not like either can accurately claim to be the original incarnation of the religion.

 

[LordsFire]

The Modern Era is unique because of the after-effects of the First and Second World Wars. No other wars in history has equalted that destructiveness and death on such a scale.

They effectively killed mainstream Christianity in Europe as it had been in the past because of how destructive they had both been, especially the First, and the trend of people becoming more atheist or agnostic stems from them.

And WW1+WWII are rapidly fading from living memory.

There's the advantage of actually being filmed and photographed extensively, but that only goes so far, especially as our cultures become more and more media saturated.

As the cultural trauma of those wars fades, so will their effect on culture. It'll probably never disappear, but to most young people these days, the 2020 lockdowns are a lot more relevant than WWII.

Beyond this, I don't agree that the World Wars are the root of the shift towards agnosticism and atheism. That'd started long before, and is no small part of the cause of the second.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

And WW1+WWII are rapidly fading from living memory.

There's the advantage of actually being filmed and photographed extensively, but that only goes so far, especially as our cultures become more and more media saturated.

As the cultural trauma of those wars fades, so will their effect on culture. It'll probably never disappear, but to most young people these days, the 2020 lockdowns are a lot more relevant than WWII.

Beyond this, I don't agree that the World Wars are the root of the shift towards agnosticism and atheism. That'd started long before, and is no small part of the cause of the second.

I think it actually started during the French Revolution, where the Enlightenment actually encouraged the questioning of church authority.

 

[Jormungandr]

And WW1+WWII are rapidly fading from living memory.

There's the advantage of actually being filmed and photographed extensively, but that only goes so far, especially as our cultures become more and more media saturated.

As the cultural trauma of those wars fades, so will their effect on culture. It'll probably never disappear, but to most young people these days, the 2020 lockdowns are a lot more relevant than WWII.

Beyond this, I don't agree that the World Wars are the root of the shift towards agnosticism and atheism. That'd started long before, and is no small part of the cause of the second.

Living memory, yes, but as you said and unlike in other periods in history, everything has been well-documented because of innovations in media e.g. film, audio, et cetera. That alone changes things compared to prior wars, as it fully exhibits how destructive both Wars were.

Although seeds were planted in the past, and there were even major events like the French Revolution in play, Europe predominantly remained Christian up until the First World War. The death and destruction was, at the time, unparalleled and to an extreme not even thought possible.

It basically killed people's faith in the Christian God, and broke Christianity in Europe.

The Second World War, one far more destructive, coming less than two decades later was the death blow that caved in Christianity's influence as it had been. If there hadn't been a Second, Christianity may have likely recovered in a century or so, but II was the death knell.

Anyway, more and more people are becoming atheists or agnostic, despite the original causes coming up over a hundred years ago now -- the echo has outlived the initial sound, and that echo is continuing to affect Europe.

Unless something Biblical happens, like an Angel descends from the Heavens, there's zero chance of a religious revival to bring Christianity even remotely back to how it had been pre-WW1.

Some people, especially young people, are finding religion? Good for them. If it works for them, it works for them. But they're basically either outliers or in a minority compared to other people who are looking at religion and going, "Yeah, nah, this is a crock of shit".

So, yeah.

It's not gonna happen, and religion, while the bonds and family structures and support networks it creates are essential to us dumb apes, isn't the magical silver bullet people think it will be to the current plague of utter shit wrecking Western civilization.

Edit: And, to be frank, religious people saying things like "all Atheists are Satanists" or "all you need is God" or variations along those lines? All they're doing is reinforcing the "religious nutjob" stigma they have to the broader, non-religious population.

 

[Cherico]

Living memory, yes, but as you said and unlike in other periods in history, everything has been well-documented because of innovations in media e.g. film, audio, et cetera. That alone changes things compared to prior wars, as it fully exhibits how destructive both Wars were.

Although seeds were planted in the past, and there were even major events like the French Revolution in play, Europe predominantly remained Christian up until the First World War. The death and destruction was, at the time, unparalleled and to an extreme not even thought possible.

It basically killed people's faith in the Christian God, and broke Christianity in Europe.

The Second World War, one far more destructive, coming less than two decades later was the death blow that caved in Christianity's influence as it had been. If there hadn't been a Second, Christianity may have likely recovered in a century or so, but II was the death knell.

Anyway, more and more people are becoming atheists or agnostic, despite the original causes coming up over a hundred years ago now -- the echo has outlived the initial sound, and that echo is continuing to affect Europe.

Unless something Biblical happens, like an Angel descends from the Heavens, there's zero chance of a religious revival to bring Christianity even remotely back to how it had been pre-WW1.

Some people, especially young people, are finding religion? Good for them. If it works for them, it works for them. But they're basically either outliers or in a minority compared to other people who are looking at religion and going, "Yeah, nah, this is a crock of shit".

So, yeah.

It's not gonna happen, and religion, while the bonds and family structures and support networks it creates are essential to us dumb apes, isn't the magical silver bullet people think it will be to the current plague of utter shit wrecking Western civilization.

Edit: And, to be frank, religious people saying things like "all Atheists are Satanists" or "all you need is God" or variations along those lines? All they're doing is reinforcing the "religious nutjob" stigma they have to the broader, non-religious population.

I don't think your right in the long term.

Quite simply put, this age of ours is an incredibly lonely one, an incredibly souless one and its leaving a void it might not get filled with chrsitanity but religion will come back.

 

[TyrantTriumphant]

Living memory, yes, but as you said and unlike in other periods in history, everything has been well-documented because of innovations in media e.g. film, audio, et cetera. That alone changes things compared to prior wars, as it fully exhibits how destructive both Wars were.

Although seeds were planted in the past, and there were even major events like the French Revolution in play, Europe predominantly remained Christian up until the First World War. The death and destruction was, at the time, unparalleled and to an extreme not even thought possible.

It basically killed people's faith in the Christian God, and broke Christianity in Europe.

The Second World War, one far more destructive, coming less than two decades later was the death blow that caved in Christianity's influence as it had been. If there hadn't been a Second, Christianity may have likely recovered in a century or so, but II was the death knell.

Anyway, more and more people are becoming atheists or agnostic, despite the original causes coming up over a hundred years ago now -- the echo has outlived the initial sound, and that echo is continuing to affect Europe.

Unless something Biblical happens, like an Angel descends from the Heavens, there's zero chance of a religious revival to bring Christianity even remotely back to how it had been pre-WW1.

Some people, especially young people, are finding religion? Good for them. If it works for them, it works for them. But they're basically either outliers or in a minority compared to other people who are looking at religion and going, "Yeah, nah, this is a crock of shit".

So, yeah.

It's not gonna happen, and religion, while the bonds and family structures and support networks it creates are essential to us dumb apes, isn't the magical silver bullet people think it will be to the current plague of utter shit wrecking Western civilization.

Edit: And, to be frank, religious people saying things like "all Atheists are Satanists" or "all you need is God" or variations along those lines? All they're doing is reinforcing the "religious nutjob" stigma they have to the broader, non-religious population.

To say that atheism's primacy in Europe will be permanent based on current trends betrays a very limited view of history. Even if Christianity does fade in Europe, which is far from decided, to say that it would never rebound is unrealistic.

Forever is a long time. You say that the World Wars caused the decline of faith in Europe. Who is to say that events of similar scale could not reverse this in the future? In time current historical events and cultural trends will fade and new ones will take their place. Be in in decades, centuries, or millennia.

Besides, if Christianity is replaced in Europe is will not be by atheism, but Islam.