ASOIAF/GOT Dothraki Army - Incompetent Huns

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
So I have had discussions about Dothraki over at ASoIaF forum, and decided to write an article about Dothraki army. And then I kept writing. And kept writing, until I ended up with a four-part series.

Here be the Part 1 of series about our favorite lobotomized horse nomads:
Dothraki are the local Essosi nomads from A Song of Ice and Fire book and A Game of Thrones TV series. They are one of the most prominent groups in Essos, and are the local to-go horse nomads. While Martin claims that they are an "amalgman of a number of steppe and plains cultures", discussions about their military capability mostly focus on two specific models: the Huns and the Mongols, and more often the latter.

But how good of nomadic army Dothraki really are? I will be addressing this question in four parts.

Historical Model

In an interview (available on Youtube here), George Martin had stated that he has based Dothraki on "a number of influences from the horse tribes from the Eurasian steppes. Certainly there is a lot of Mongols in them, but they are not purely the Mongols, I added some sort of material about the Huns, there is some material there that I took from Amerindian tribes such as the Sioux and the Cheyenne, the horse tribes of the Great American Praeries. And there is a certain amount that is pure fantasy – you know, where you have a little fun, and you mix all this stuff together, you come up with a thing and then you add few fantasy twists on it… Because this is after all, a fantasy series.".

This is repeated nearly word-for-word in So Spake Martin: "The Dothraki were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures… Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes… seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy. So any resemblance to Arabs or Turks is coincidental. Well, except to the extent that the Turks were also originally horsemen of the steppes, not unlike the Alans, Huns, and the rest.

There do exist many other cultures and civilizations in my world, to be sure. The peoples of Yi Ti have been mentioned, as have the Jogos Nhai. I am not sure to what extent those peoples will ever enter this present story, however… their lands are very far away.

(I also have peoples and tribes that are pure fantasy constructs, like the Qartheen and the brindled men of Sothoryos).

In general, though, while I do draw inspiration from history, I try to avoid direct one-for-one transplants, whether of individuals or of entire cultures. Just as it not correct to say that Robert was Henry VIII or Edward IV, it would not be correct to say that the Dothraki are Mongols."


But as will become obvious later, Dothraki are absolutely nothing like the Eurasian nomads, especially the Mongols. Even the American Indians would likely feel insulted by comparison of their own tactics and military capabilites to those of Dothraki. There is not a "certain amount that is pure fantasy" – Dothraki are, in fact, nearly 100% pure fantasy, are are very different from (and inferior compared to) any and all of their "historical inspirations".

User Craving Peaches from A Song of Ice and Fire forum has noted that Dothraki are possibly based on the Sea Peoples that had destroyed the Hittite Empire and had also attacked Egypt. They would rape, pillage and burn, never building anything, and were likely unarmored or only lightly armored. Sarnori themselves are a good parallel to Hittites as they utilized chariots and were also very prone to infighting.

But since claims about capabilities of the Dothraki are usually based on their alleged Mongol and, to a lesser extent, Hunnic inspiration, this is what I will be focusing on.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
"Amerindian" Tribes sounds like the best historical parallel for the Dothraki and that's solely due to the utter lack of armor and little interest in siege warfare. Both of which are still due to the nature of the Great Plains in the 18th and 19th century. Transposing the Dothraki Grass Sea or whatever its called with the Great Plains would be somewhat imprecise I feel.

The greatest empire of the Plains was the Comanche, who ranged all the way from the Northern Midwest of the United States down to within a few hundred kilometers of Mexico City. They were a near existential threat for the Republic of Texas, ravaged Mexico for decades and decades and the dominant power on the Southern Plains in a world where you had other noted tribes like the Cheyenne, Utes, Hopi, Apache and Pueblo etc. The Comanche however were ironically a multiethnic Empire as well. They captured (and raped) people from other tribes and settlers but also many of them ended up joining the tribes. There were Comanche of White and Mexican descent including some famous leaders like Quanah Parker.

It was ultimately the large scale hunting of Buffalo as opposed to the force of the US (and Mexican) authorities that eventually weakened them enough. And keep in mind this was a Great Horse Empire (it was an Empire) and yet they probably never numbered more then say... twenty or thirty thousand members. And historically they were probably every bit as great and legendary a horse rider and warrior skillwise as any Turk or Mongol or Turco-Mongol. :p

They wouldn't really have a place on a medieval battlefield though. They didn't wear much armor besides hides (not for Dothraki reasons mind you, it just isn't practical) and used bows and lances and clubs and the like. But they adapted to firearms readily enough. They'd adopt armor if practical.

The Comanche were traders as well. I'm not sure of any Dothraki appreciation of commerce but the Comanche were big on trade and the like. And actual treaty signing and following of such terms. They'll capable of taking bribes as well as honoring alliances and the like.

Having a direct Comancheria replace the Dothraki would likely result in far less population density. The Comancheria had maybe twenty thousand members, which is the equivalent of like one Khalasar or maybe smaller since a Khalasar only counts the warriors AFAIK. Everyone else is a slave and the Dothraki had like over a million of them including all of their women or whatever. The Comancheria had slaves as well and took captives as slaves and traded in slaves.

The Comanche also weren't all too hot about siege warfare and there's no real notion of it in history. They took advantage of the lack of settlement and were able to raid and trade and prey upon the dispersed settlements and villages but also the trade routes of them. Raiding farms and ranches and villages and hamlets and like. I couldn't imagine them doing something zany like charging headlong into Unsullied phalanxes or the like. That'd be silly.

The main threat of a Comancheria in Essos would be that trying to wipe them out would be far more costly then trying to trade or appease or maybe just simply ignorng and enduring their predations, especially if the Comancheria is sized upwards to a scale between their own historical size and that of the Dothraki. But considering how big the Dothraki homeland is, trying to hunt down smaller groupings of Comanche would be even more difficult, especially with medieval slave army logistics.

Conversely a threat of a Comanche army invading Westeros would be far less scary. Twenty thousand Comanche riding around wouldn't be fun for large amounts of farms and ranches, but they ain't taking any towns and in battles, they'd probably function in a manner similar to Indian scouts for the US Army or as just general screening and pillaging forces for an actual proper army.

EDIT:

The Comanche also didn't practice agriculture either. They did gathering (including making pemmican) and hunting and traded for agricultural goods with neighboring tribes and the like. They certainly didn't derive 99% of their foodstuffs from horses like the Dothraki, though they were known as horse breeders. So that might be a limit on their population as well.

It's important to note that before the development of iron/steel plows it was really difficult to engage in the kind of farming we think of back in the day due to the packed in dead and dry steppe grass that embedded much of the soil of the Great Plains. Agriculture, which was still extensive, therefore was limited to certain areas. I'm assuming the Dothraki Grass Sea is similar.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Funny thing is, if the Comanche had been around as long as the Dothraki, had as constant a contact with big civilisations like the Free Cities, then you bet they'd be donning armour.
Of course,unlike Dothraki they used their heads to other things then beat other people.
 

edgeworthy

Well-known member
ACOUP has a series on the Dothraki. Its un-complimentary.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
ACOUP has a series on the Dothraki. Its un-complimentary.
Yeah, I know. But that wasn't very useful for my purposes since he seemed to focus primarily on the Show!Dothraki, while my series is about the Book!Dothraki.

BookRaki are bad, but the Show Dothraki... oh dear Stallion.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Part 2 of the series:

Nomadic battle tactics generally favored deception, feigned retreats and ambushes. In combat, nomads such as Huns would form army into several units of irregular size with a separate force in reserve, ready to spring an ambush.

Huns

Hunnic tactics were based on their hunting tactics, which were based around mounted archery. They would attack the enemy by bombarding them with arrows while approaching, shoot from very close distance before stopping and then withdraw while still shooting. This tactic was very effective against generally not well protected barbarian infantry, especially since barbarians and Romans both lacked sufficient foot archers to deal with the Hunnic archers (unlike later Byzantine armies).

But the above does not mean that Huns did not train. In fact, Hunnic (and Mongol) tactics and warfare requred as much training to be effective as that of the professional sedentary armies they faced. The martial lifestyle came to them no more naturally than it did to the sedentary populations. Effective employment of horse archers required proper spacing between the horses to give room for maneuvering, and sufficient number of horses must have been had not only to provide mounts but also to replace any losses.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Mongols had heavy calvary,huns was only horse archers.Still Enough to crush german tribes.
P.S Merry Christmas !
I think they had a decent number of light cavalry/horse archers.
Anyway, Merry Christmas, @ATP best wishes for the coming year!
 

ATP

Well-known member
I think they had a decent number of light cavalry/horse archers.
Anyway, Merry Christmas, @ATP best wishes for the coming year!
Thanks,and sorry for being unclear.
Mongol tumen had 4 mingans/1000 each/ of heavy calvary,6 mingans/1000 each/ of light calvary,and 500 military engineers for sieges.Ideal tool for dealing with anytching they could face then.

To be honest,if they attacked in 18th century,not 13th,they would win all battles.Not sieges,though - no fieldartillery.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Part 2 of the series:

Bruh the Khal got shredded by a chariot... If I was a Blood Rider I'd be retreating in shame too.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist

Aside from tactics and organization, superior technology was in fact crucial for successes of nomadic armies against their sedentary opponents. Scythians and later Mongols used lamellar armor at the time when their opponents used mail. It was the Mongols who introduced cannons to the Islamic world and may have introduced them to Europe as well.

Primary nomadic weapon was a composite bow, composed of at least three layers of different materials (compare to self bows which are from a single piece and laminated bows which have several layers of the same material). For most nomads, three materials used in composite bows were wood, horn and sinew. Wood formed the core and the grip of the bow, and was backed by sinew to add tensile strength. It was then fronted by horn whose springiness allowed bow to quickly return to its original shape. As a result, composite bow transfers energy to arrow far more efficiently than the self bow does. Composite bows are also often recurved, reflexed, or both. This allows more potential energy to be stored in the limbs at full draw without increasing draw length, since tension is preloaded on even undrawn strung bow. As a result, recurved / reflexed composite bow will be far more powerful than a D-shaped self bow of the same draw weight.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Funny thing is, if the Comanche had been around as long as the Dothraki, had as constant a contact with big civilisations like the Free Cities, then you bet they'd be donning armour.

There was a Comanche War Chief and Medicine Man named 'Iron Jacket' who lived in the early 19th century and was stated to have the powerful magical ability to "blow bullets aside" and was considered invulnerable in battle due to those magical abilities (and the fact he wore a heavy coat of Spanish mail) into battle. It was described as metal plates woven together like shingles and fashioned into a vest and according to contemporary accounts allowed him to survive mid-19th century gunfire. When he faced his demise, it was due to Texas Rangers shooting him with Buffalo Guns at his armpits which were not as well protected.



Whelp. Comanche don't use swords. They do use bows. They also use war lances, ranging from nine to fourteen feet long... plus a foot long blade for thrusting or slashing. They also had the clubs and tomahawks. Some warclubs had a club bit and a tomahawk bladed part and oftentimes could be thrown as well.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Final part, detailing precisely how Dothraki are not good nomadic army:
Of course ! light calvary which almost do not use bows,and use charges as if they were knights,must fail !
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Final part, detailing precisely how Dothraki are not good nomadic army:

Kinda disappointed ngl. I was hoping for a surprise ending.
 

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