Dive bombers replaced all light bombers before WW2

[Zachowon]

Sorry if i was unclear,but i do not belive that dive bombers were magic cure.Only that horizontal bombers till heavy bombers come was waste of resources against any enemy with good fighters.
And becouse countries with poor fighters,like Poland fell quickly,after that anybody should made either dive or heavy bombers.
Preferable both.

Germany and Hungary could use medium bombers against soviets till 1945 only becouse soviet air force sucked.And even they used mostly Ju88 in dive bomber version.

Now,what italian dive bombers/some dive version of Breda Ba65/ could achieve ?
1.1940 - british had small number of fighters there,so they could act freely there.With 400kg bombs made from 320 schells they could not sink battleships,but carriers and cruisers are another matter.If british fleet do not widraw,they would be bloodied.

2.1941 - they could partially stop operation Compass,targeting british trucks.Tobruk would remain in Italian hands,and germans do not need send more then one dyvision there.
British navy fighters still sucked,so their fleet could do nothing - Malta would probably fall.And dive bombers get 640kg bombs,which mean pssibility of sunking battleships.

Which mean one more tank dyvision and Rommel against soviets - Leningrad could fall this time.

3.1942 - with more german resources on East,Stalingrad would fall and 6 army do not get destroyed.
Turkey joined war against soviets.
Italian with one german dyvision still do not take Egypt,and their dive bombers would face Spitfires.This mean end of their land career,but against british navy they still would do.

4.1943 - Germans ad Leningrad and Stalingrad, heavy fighting there.but till the end of year soviet would reclaim Don river.
Turkey fight in Caucasus mountains.
Italian start using new fighters/Re2005 etc/ with 640 kg bombs,efficient against allied fleet.Italy still lost Africa,but nothing more.

4.1944 - soviets come to Dniepr river,retake Leningrad.And most of Turkey.
Italy invaded and surrender,german fight there near Alps/american forces fighting better then in 1943 OTL/

5.1945 - soviet take Wisła river,Allies take all of Italy,Hungary and probably Bulgary.Maybe Constantinopole,too.War end with A bombs on Berlin.

Result - soviets take less in Europe/only Poland and Romania/ but get Turkey.And british navy lost more ships.War last 4 months longer.

JU88 was a horizontal bomber or did better then the 87

Fun fact, a single30 cal machine gun is more then enough to kill a fighter. a 50 is even more... Guess what most convoys had with them? vehicles with that kinda weaponry. AAA was in use during the interwar periods, and dive bombers were only useful in areas with little to none, or in the pacific where you had to worry about other factors and weren't just on land. Dive bombers also carry 1to 3 bombs, where as light bombers could carry more of smaller bombs, and medim could carry even more.

Add in the fact that Dive bombers were worse against fighters then horizontal bombers

 

[ATP]

JU88 was a horizontal bomber or did better then the 87

Fun fact, a single30 cal machine gun is more then enough to kill a fighter. a 50 is even more... Guess what most convoys had with them? vehicles with that kinda weaponry. AAA was in use during the interwar periods, and dive bombers were only useful in areas with little to none, or in the pacific where you had to worry about other factors and weren't just on land. Dive bombers also carry 1to 3 bombs, where as light bombers could carry more of smaller bombs, and medim could carry even more.

Add in the fact that Dive bombers were worse against fighters then horizontal bombers

Ju88 was created as horizontal bomber,but later on East front used mostly in dive version/and against Allies as night fighter/
And it do not mattered how much medium bomber could carry,when they were good only to hit very big targets,like factories.
For anything smaller you need dive bomber or ground attack.

P.S german destroyed Guernica,becouse their horizontal bombers tried to destroy rail station there.Rail station lost windows,but city become ruins.

 

[Zachowon]

Ju88 was created as horizontal bomber,but later on East front used mostly in dive version/and against Allies as night fighter/
And it do not mattered how much medium bomber could carry,when they were good only to hit very big targets,like factories.
For anything smaller you need dive bomber or ground attack.

P.S german destroyed Guernica,becouse their horizontal bombers tried to destroy rail station there.Rail station lost windows,but city become ruins.

You obviously don't know how easy a target is then it is no longer moving forward and is moving right at you or in an easier way to fire.

They started doing that because they started to lose air suiprority and Stukas were being shot down to quickly because the fighters would stall at their speeds.

I want you to look at what had more success, A-20's, A/B-26's and P-47's compared to Stukas and Dive bombers?

 

[Vargas Fan]

Saying the Soviet air force sucked throughout the war is also a rather broad claim as in the opening days of Operation Barbarossa a lot of the VVS was caught on the ground. Not to mention at this point the main fighters were the Polikarpov I-15, I-16 and I-153, and these aircraft gave a decent accounting of themselves all things considered when they were able to get off the ground. They were obsolete at this point, but many air forces had this problem with the rapid rate of technological advancement. Early MiGs, LaGG's and Yaks also varied in performance mainly due to the engine powers, but later designs from these OKB's were far better and the Pe-2, Tu-2 light bombers were decent aircraft, and not to mention the Sturmovik.

Classing the air force as sucking throughout the war is unfair. Also, you can't look at equipment alone, you also have to look at personnel. The Japanese Kudo Butai at the beginning of the Pacific War was a highly trained force, but the Japanese aviation forces towards the end of the war was a shadow of it's former self, this also happened with the Luftwaffe where there was an ever diminishing pool of experienced personnel.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

I will note that level bombers while terrible against most warships where very effective against merchant shipping

 

[ATP]

Saying the Soviet air force sucked throughout the war is also a rather broad claim as in the opening days of Operation Barbarossa a lot of the VVS was caught on the ground. Not to mention at this point the main fighters were the Polikarpov I-15, I-16 and I-153, and these aircraft gave a decent accounting of themselves all things considered when they were able to get off the ground. They were obsolete at this point, but many air forces had this problem with the rapid rate of technological advancement. Early MiGs, LaGG's and Yaks also varied in performance mainly due to the engine powers, but later designs from these OKB's were far better and the Pe-2, Tu-2 light bombers were decent aircraft, and not to mention the Sturmovik.

Classing the air force as sucking throughout the war is unfair. Also, you can't look at equipment alone, you also have to look at personnel. The Japanese Kudo Butai at the beginning of the Pacific War was a highly trained force, but the Japanese aviation forces towards the end of the war was a shadow of it's former self, this also happened with the Luftwaffe where there was an ever diminishing pool of experienced personnel.

Soviet in 1941 had 3:1 advantage in air - and still lost.Polish totally obsolate air forces fought better.
And even in 1944,when soviets encircled GA North after destroing GA Center german just send ONE cruiser who destroyed soviet blocking force - thanks to coordination made by her Ar-196 floatplanes.Soviet planes do not even saw it.Could you imagine german cruiser doing the same in France ?

 

[Zachowon]

Soviet in 1941 had 3:1 advantage in air - and still lost.Polish totally obsolate air forces fought better.
And even in 1944,when soviets encircled GA North after destroing GA Center german just send ONE cruiser who destroyed soviet blocking force - thanks to coordination made by her Ar-196 floatplanes.Soviet planes do not even saw it.Could you imagine german cruiser doing the same in France ?

That is pilot capabilities tied into the fact that USSR Planes were made to work, not be great.

Also, one cruiser has A LOT of AAA capabilities. Do you know how many dive bombers were sent against ships in world war 2? a lot, because they would face a wall of AAA, from machine guns to FLAK.

 

[ATP]

That is pilot capabilities tied into the fact that USSR Planes were made to work, not be great.

Also, one cruiser has A LOT of AAA capabilities. Do you know how many dive bombers were sent against ships in world war 2? a lot, because they would face a wall of AAA, from machine guns to FLAK.

Problem is - soviet planes do not even found her.Not only that - all german cruisers on Baltic supported german land forces till they were out of ammo,and one last pocket battleship was sunked by...british heavy bombers.
Not mention Rudel,who in his Ju87 destroyed soviet tanks till the end of war.During day.How long Ju 87 would last against Allies in 1945 ?

 

[Zachowon]

Problem is - soviet planes do not even found her.Not only that - all german cruisers on Baltic supported german land forces till they were out of ammo,and one last pocket battleship was sunked by...british heavy bombers.
Not mention Rudel,who in his Ju87 destroyed soviet tanks till the end of war.During day.How long Ju 87 would last against Allies in 1945 ?

You realize people get lucky right? What kind of Stuka did he have? What model? Did he have fighter support? Did he go against Soviet air forces?
Why does it matter if they support land forces? Cruisers were generally the AAA platforms for the fleets because of the amount usually put on them
And yes, Heavy bombers are more effective, but do you know what works best against ships? Torpedos

 

[PsihoKekec]

Did he have fighter support?

He had a fighter squadron escorting him on all sorties from 1943 on. Still, he go shot down twenty times by AA defenses, losing his leg in the Visla-Odra offensive, still got back in fight in the last days of war.

German cruisers were not good AAA platforms, but Soviet anti-ship work was poor.

Heavy bombers are more effective, but do you know what works best against ships? Torpedos

And skip bombing

 

[Zachowon]

He had a fighter squadron escorting him on all sorties from 1943 on. Still, he go shot down twenty times by AA defenses, losing his leg in the Visla-Odra offensive, still got back in fight in the last days of war.

German cruisers were not good AAA platforms, but Soviet anti-ship work was poor.


And skip bombing

So he wasn't flying the same Stuka every time...Good to know goes to show AAA were that damn good.

So two horrible things still shows AAA is that good.

That wasn't used by the US much iirc

 

[PsihoKekec]

However, that many shotdowns were on 3000+ sorties, so he certainly had a better shotdown per sortie rate than 8th air force, for example.

 

[Zachowon]

However, that many shotdowns were on 3000+ sorties, so he certainly had a better shotdown per sortie rate than 8th air force, for example.

8th Air force also had a LOT more planes in the air, and faced a LOT thicker flak. You don't fly Dive bombers into heavily defended areas

 

[Vargas Fan]

You realize people get lucky right? What kind of Stuka did he have? What model? Did he have fighter support? Did he go against Soviet air forces?
Why does it matter if they support land forces? Cruisers were generally the AAA platforms for the fleets because of the amount usually put on them
And yes, Heavy bombers are more effective, but do you know what works best against ships? Torpedos

I believe Rudel in later years was using the Stuka G model with twin 37mm underwing cannons. So, at this point not a dive bomber. He did sink the Battleship Marat (ex Petropavlovsk) earlier in the war with a dive bomber variant.

 

[Buba]

I'd divide Rudel's score by ten or so ... looking at it one wonders how did the 3rd Reich lose the war ...

 

[Zachowon]

I believe Rudel in later years was using the Stuka G model with twin 37mm underwing cannons. So, at this point not a dive bomber. He did sink the Battleship Marat (ex Petropavlovsk) earlier in the war with a dive bomber variant.

Oh so he switched to a CAS role. Makes more sense then

I'd divide Rudel's score by ten or so ... looking at it one wonders how did the 3rd Reich lose the war ...

Look at their tank aces from the eastern front

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Look at their tank aces from the eastern front

Yep as we all know claims of kills are usually two or three times higher than reality on average. Plus while the Russias lost a lot of tanks knocked out they recovered and repaired a lot of said tanks

 

[PsihoKekec]

He did sink the Battleship Marat (ex Petropavlovsk) earlier in the war with a dive bomber variant.

It took multiple bomb hits and Soviets considered a Ju-88 to have dropped the one that hit the magazine, so it's more likely that Germans attributed it to their propaganda darling for propaganda reasons.

 

[Zachowon]

I mean, didn't the Germans do that for a lot of thier stuff?
Unlike the Americans where you have a guy like Audie Murphy from WW2 or Alvin York from WW1
Both of who did things that you would think happens only in movies and yet thier fame isn't as big as those from other countries.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Everybody was doing it during the war, either by amplifying the deeds of actual heroes or inventing new ones.