Cyberpunk America vs Fallout America vs Modern Earth NATO

[Husky_Khan]

Yeah browsing through the Deep Space Supplement for Cyberpunk 2020 I don't see any rules for orbital bombardment. There are space based weapons, with ranges that apparently max out to about 1500 kilometers and battle satellites and space based gunships, space planes and shuttles etc could get close enough... but what's throwing me off beyond the lack of rules for any sort of orbital bombardment (maybe one could use the stationary target rules after all) is that the damages are way off.

For example your basic air to air missile does 15d10 Damage if you are unfortunate enough to be hit by them straight up (since Cyberpunk 2020 rules regarding hitting vehicles depends on a penetration value v. armor value, not a strict damage roll against hit points value).

In space combat, there's no rules for an individual getting hit by a space based laser or space based nuclear missile, only other spacecraft. There are also no similar Penetration v. Armor value like with military vehicles. This is a problem because in that case a starcrafts Laser Cannon or whatever can do about 4d10 damage, which is about the equivalent of a M72 LAW Rocket. A Nuclear Missile (largely forbidden in use in terrestrial warfare) can do 6d10 damage... while a Heavy ATGM can do 18d10 damage.

Clearly the scaling is off.

So Cyberpunk 2020 does have Space Based weapons. Just there's no scale as to how to apply it. Unless one scales off of a generic "Anti-Starship Nuclear Missile" doing 6d10 damage in Spaaaaace. In which case a Laser does 4d10, a Particle Beam 5d10, a Kinetic Kill Weapon 3d10+5, and a Railgun comes in with a whopping 7d10 damage. So maybe the Space based weapons could have similar scaled effects on the ground, if not to the point of creating massive nuclear airbursts... maybe at least in penetrating... whatever.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Yeah browsing through the Deep Space Supplement for Cyberpunk 2020 I don't see any rules for orbital bombardment. There are space based weapons, with ranges that apparently max out to about 1500 kilometers and battle satellites and space based gunships, space planes and shuttles etc could get close enough... but what's throwing me off beyond the lack of rules for any sort of orbital bombardment (maybe one could use the stationary target rules after all) is that the damages are way off.

For example your basic air to air missile does 15d10 Damage if you are unfortunate enough to be hit by them straight up (since Cyberpunk 2020 rules regarding hitting vehicles depends on a penetration value v. armor value, not a strict damage roll against hit points value).

In space combat, there's no rules for an individual getting hit by a space based laser or space based nuclear missile, only other spacecraft. There are also no similar Penetration v. Armor value like with military vehicles. This is a problem because in that case a starcrafts Laser Cannon or whatever can do about 4d10 damage, which is about the equivalent of a M72 LAW Rocket. A Nuclear Missile (largely forbidden in use in terrestrial warfare) can do 6d10 damage... while a Heavy ATGM can do 18d10 damage.

Clearly the scaling is off.

So Cyberpunk 2020 does have Space Based weapons. Just there's no scale as to how to apply it. Unless one scales off of a generic "Anti-Starship Nuclear Missile" doing 6d10 damage in Spaaaaace. In which case a Laser does 4d10, a Particle Beam 5d10, a Kinetic Kill Weapon 3d10+5, and a Railgun comes in with a whopping 7d10 damage. So maybe the Space based weapons could have similar scaled effects on the ground, if not to the point of creating massive nuclear airbursts... maybe at least in penetrating... whatever.

Next up, who can invade the other side better?

Storming defenses
Setting up beach heads
Reinforcing

Ect

 

[Scooby Doo]

@Husky_Khan I also just remembered Deathclaws and Cazadors are Pre-War assets just never put out into mass production.

I don't think the Nomads are gonna have a good time 😬

 

[Bassoe]

Fallout!merica beats cyberpunk!merica in an embarrassingly one-sided curbstomp on a scale not seen since the last First Contact War spite thread. You're pitting an actual nation-state against a bunch of neofeudal megacorps, gangs and nomads, all of whom already hate each other. Fallout!merica CIA has a field day using their enemies into puppets against each other. They've even already got a preexisting faction willing to use violence who idolize pre-collapse America and want to reunify the country.

God, the anti-nationalism really brings discussions down whenever something related to it comes up. For context, some idiots were discussing Captain America ending up in Cyberpunk 2077, and of course some mouth-breathing failure of an abortion had to chime in with "He'd totally be disgusted with the 6th Street!!1!" despite them being founded by veterans of the wars the corpos started and their stated goal being the reunification of the USA. Then again, it's baked in with how their theme is called "Patri(di)ots".
"Sure, the Valentinos peddle drugs, sell people in body and mind, and rob people, but at least they are not these goddamn patriots!"
Morons like these deserve to be stranded in an era where everyone hates outsiders and only their own nation will even consider granting them shelter.

I doubt that Steve would like their methods (only guessing that because this is a cyberpunk setting after all) but he'd try to forge them into something better.

Here's their wikipage: 6th Street

yeah sounds like a group he try to work his way up the ranks with. They'd probably take him in a heartbeat if not do a straight-up "THE Captain America?!? *Proceeds to do the bowing gesture* We're not worthy!!! We're not worthy!!!"

I kinda-sorta slaughtered tons of Sixth Street members for the lulz and because I did not get the weapon from the contest, and because NUSA and it's proxies annoy me, but even I would probably find that fanfic interesting, and I don't go for CapeShit, either,and was always more a fan of Stark than Cap, no idea what the whole team Cap vs. Team IronMan is btw, but I just prefer Tony.


They engdge in racketeering and peddle drugs, they are basically very similar to various far-left and far right insurgencies in Latin America thst have switched to peddling drugs IMHO.

I think they will act as the delinquent kids to Cap's karate master in this movie.
He will have to kick the shit out of them to get them on the straight and narrow.

The NUSA isn't much better, IMHO, more banana republic dictatorship/corpo hybrid than anything else.

I'd read that fanfic.

I would, too!

 

[Husky_Khan]

OP specified that NATO and Cyberpunk America were unified factions.

 

[Scooby Doo]

OP specified that NATO and Cyberpunk America were unified factions.

Yeh NATO isn't working with Cyberpunk they just don't have inter fighting and politics back stabbing each other selfishly.

 

[Agent23]

Fallout!merica beats cyberpunk!merica in an embarrassingly one-sided curbstomp on a scale not seen since the last First Contact War spite thread. You're pitting an actual nation-state against a bunch of neofeudal megacorps, gangs and nomads, all of whom already hate each other. Fallout!merica CIA has a field day using their enemies into puppets against each other. They've even already got a preexisting faction willing to use violence who idolize pre-collapse America and want to reunify the country.

These corpos have feigning nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers and space stations.
Also, I am pretty sure some among the FOUSA would be glad to move to a form of meritocratic corpocracy, like, say House and some of the other backers of the Vault project/the Enclave.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Any Corporate Leaders in Fallout, including Robert House, will take one look at the world of Cyberpunk and its current state of society and immediately go "lol no" as an example to even remotely be interested in.

Fallout USA's Government worked hand in hand with Big Business. The history of Cyberpunk America was literally the Government and Corporations falling over each other in failures. The Great Collapse in the 90's was due to the Gang of Four Intelligence Agencies fomenting a Quiet War with the European Union and hacking and manipulating markets, so the European governments responded in kind doing the same to the US Stock Markets, resulting in a Collapse of the Markets in 1994. Then things got progressively worse for the next eighty years.

And the Corporations weren't helping it along. House clearly wasn't impressed with techno-fetishists in the Brotherhood or barbarians "yawping" about their conquests like the Legion or other assorted Tribals, and while he might've been quippy about the NCR and taxes, he was more then willing to work with that government and take advantage of their economics. But the Corporations and their behavior in the Corporate Wars, including the Fourth, was literally techno-fetishists AND Barbarian YAWPings. I couldn't imagine any Business Leader like House contemplating the wasteful expenses that resulted in Arasaka and Militech getting into a costly pissing match with each other while the worldwide OldNet collapsed due to their own corporate mismanagement, and worse, corporations becoming nationalized or parts of the government. In the wake of the Fourth Corporate War Militech was nationalized and the JSDF beheaded the head of Aratech (delivering his head to the US) after a protected War between the two. They are barely megacorporations as much as just ethnic/cultural groups acting like a government, not businesses in the least. House is actually more inclusive then many of them.

I don't see House or anyone looking at Cyberpunk Corporate Practices and thinking, this is worthy of emulation or betraying our own country. The autocracy of House and the actions of the Enclave was a result of the Great War due to Red Communist China being poor losers. No reason why it would happen here unless there's a similarly apocalyptic event but even in that case, any Corporate Autocracy in Fallout would be decidedly different then how discombobulated the Corporations of Cyberpunk are.

 

[Scooby Doo]

I wonder which has a bigger Military budget, the Mega Corps of Cyberpunk or Fallout America?
🤔

 

[Husky_Khan]

I wonder which has a bigger Military budget, the Mega Corps of Cyberpunk or Fallout America?
🤔

As of Cyberpunk 2020 the US military was smaller than the combined private corporate militaries in the United States but seen as still far more capable and able to afford weapons platforms corporations easily couldn't. With Militech apparently still nationalized by the US Government in the wake of the War and it still lasting now almost sixty years later, I'm sure the budget is formidable but supposedly the United States is somehow 24th in Economic Power worldwide... which sounds utterly ridiculous. I get that America is balkanized and thoroughly shitted up, but so is the rest of the world, just slightly less so. There is an extreme lack of information on the rest of the world in the period between 2020/30-2077 though but it still seems odd.

Regardless having a rank of 24 (and yet apparently Militech as one of the premier MegaCorps in the world) would lead me to assume Fallout is more likely having the advantage in real purchasing power when it comes to a military budget.

 

[Agent23]

I wonder which has a bigger Military budget, the Mega Corps of Cyberpunk or Fallout America?
🤔

A budget of apples vs. a budget of oranges.

 

[Scooby Doo]

A budget of apples vs. a budget of oranges.

Well IRC an Armored Division worth of raw material for Fallout costs less than $15,000,000 and can be produced in four days.

I wanted data? Well, I've got data. Somewhere in there, I'm sure there's a usable result. But it's buried in 58 tape drives of steaming hot crap. 58 drives! That cute little automated test routine has eaten all the data storage on the base, enough power to run Watoga for a year, and more raw materials than the 81st Armored.And I have to dig a golden needle out of this shit in less than a week.

I'm so screwed.

Project SIPHON Holotapes are a STRICTLY CONTROLLED RESOURCE. Under no circumstances are they to be issued to anyone, ever, without my direct approval. In addition to being highly classified, just one of these tapes is twice the annual budget of our entire division. If you check one of them out, the system will log it, and you'll be answering to me.

RESULTS Project SIPHON achieved a successful data compression ratio of 200:1. Due to cost concerns with SIPHON's iridium-infused magnetic tape ($15 million/holotape), and multiple personal-use issues resulting in two lost tapes, project oversight has been transferred to the Sugar Grove SigInt Analysis division.

Now I don't know about you but that's fucking stupidly cheep.


$7.5 Million for an armored Division Worth of Material.


We know shelling out $650,000,000,000 wasn't a major inconvenience for FO America so they should theoretically be able to field at least 86,666 Armored Divisions 😨

Which is literally tens of thousands times the size of 21st Century America.

 

[Agent23]

Well IRC an Armored Division worth of raw material for Fallout costs less than $15,000,000 and can be produced in four days.





Now I don't know about you but that's fucking stupidly cheep.


$7.5 Million for an armored Division Worth of Material.


We know shelling out $650,000,000,000 wasn't a major inconvenience for FO America so they should theoretically be able to field at least 86,666 Armored Divisions 😨

Which is literally tens of thousands times the size of 21st Century America.

Sure, dude, sure, keep it up with the wishful thinking.

Materials can mean a lot of things, is it raw materials or fabricated ones?

Which materials?

Some specific types of rare earths used in complex fabrication?

Also, there is a world of difference between development and fabrication cost.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Sure, dude, sure, keep it up with the wishful thinking.

Materials can mean a lot of things, is it raw materials or fabricated ones?

Which materials?

Some specific types of rare earths used in complex fabrication?

Also, there is a world of difference between development and fabrication cost.

Quote is literally raw materials and they'd be using robotic parts so it's all fabricated and it was fabricated over the course of 4 days every eight minutes.

This machine that can produce said robots was a part of a division that had an annual budget of $7.5 million

 

[Scooby Doo]

@Husky_Khan What do you think of the budgeting calc? Make sense?

 

[Husky_Khan]

@Husky_Khan What do you think of the budgeting calc? Make sense?

It makes "sense" but I don't know if it makes "sense" if that makes sense you get my meaning.

Regardless you know how I feel about maths, unless you don't.

 

[Agent23]

Quote is literally raw materials and they'd be using robotic parts so it's all fabricated and it was fabricated over the course of 4 days every eight minutes.

This machine that can produce said robots was a part of a division that had an annual budget of $7.5 million

Yeah, sure, sorry, but other events in the games do not show anywhere near that rate of production.

I kinds doubt Mr. House would have been in the predicament he was in during NV if there was suck tech sloshing around, and I am pretty sure that with his technical skills and connections he should have managed to gain access to this type of stuff and integrate it into his project long before anyone else could.

I do not recall anything like that being controlled by the Enclave or Big MT either.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Yeah, sure, sorry, but other events in the games do not show anywhere near that rate of production.

I kinds doubt Mr. House would have been in the predicament he was in during NV if there was suck tech sloshing around, and I am pretty sure that with his technical skills and connections he should have managed to gain access to this type of stuff and integrate it into his project long before anyone else could.

I do not recall anything like that being controlled by the Enclave or Big MT either.

Mister House did kinda have one under the Camp of Caesar we just never get an exact figure. Like wise BIG MT had robo scorpions that could be produced from floor panels and was limited by the scientists being batshit crazy and prioritizing cybernetics and lobotomies over machines.

The Enclave like wise developed all their resources to mass producing Vertibirds and Power Armor, even then there was a lot of robots they couldn't get out because the base was destroyed pretty quick into the story.

 

[Agent23]

Mister House did kinda have one under the Camp of Caesar we just never get an exact figure. Like wise BIG MT had robo scorpions that could be produced from floor panels and was limited by the scientists being batshit crazy and prioritizing cybernetics and lobotomies over machines.

The Enclave like wise developed all their resources to mass producing Vertibirds and Power Armor, even then there was a lot of robots they couldn't get out because the base was destroyed pretty quick into the story.

The Scorpion bots were not that numerous, so I assume that the Elijah ending required a decent amount of ramp up to get them to overrun the wasteland.

House's little bunker was iirc a storage facility more than it was a factory.Thst securotron army was there a long while.

As to the Enclave, whell if they had the ability to churn out massive amounts of Powered armor, guns and vertiberds do you think that a few tribals, raiders and other post apocalyptic flotsom would have stopped them.

Also, need lube? You are whanking pretty hard.

 

[Scooby Doo]

The Scorpion bots were not that numerous, so I assume that the Elijah ending required a decent amount of ramp up to get them to overrun the wasteland.

House's little bunker was iirc a storage facility more than it was a factory.Thst securotron army was there a long while.

As to the Enclave, whell if they had the ability to churn out massive amounts of Powered armor, guns and vertiberds do you think that a few tribals, raiders and other post apocalyptic flotsom would have stopped them.

Also, need lube? You are whanking pretty hard.

I mean that's like subjective, they infinitely respawn but the game engine limits the visual numbers.

Ah well if it was then you can't blame him for not having the resources to match Pre-War America, you're talking Post Apocalypse vs Pre-Apocalypse availability of resources which is a bad comparison.

None of that stopped them tho, Liberty Prime (AKA one man Army) did he single handedly devastated the bulk of Enclave forces and did the majority of heavy fighting, after Prime died the Lone Wanderer took up the rest of the heavy fighting with Tesla anti-tank weapons and used an artillery satellite to finish them off. Comparatively the BOS only participated in small skirmishes with out prime.

No lube all facts 😂, it's only wanked if it has no source