Commieboo myths
- Thread starter Aldarion
- Start date
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
That's a pretty good video, and it gets me to thinking about an AU where Japan didn't attack the US, and instead invaded eastern Russia.
They had some strong historical reasons to not want to do so, but if they did, I don't see it going well for the Ruskies, given how deeply into Russia the Germans were at the time.
They had some strong historical reasons to not want to do so, but if they did, I don't see it going well for the Ruskies, given how deeply into Russia the Germans were at the time.
Yinko
Well-known member
The justification I heard for why the Soviets won in Europe, basically single-handedly was this.
Table of German casualties by front, the Eastern Front (against the Soviets) accounts for approx 50% of all deaths in the war by the Germans.
Table of German casualties by front, the Eastern Front (against the Soviets) accounts for approx 50% of all deaths in the war by the Germans.
| Description | Dead | Missing & POW | Total | Wounded & Sick |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Army | ||||
| Eastern Front | 1,105,987 | 1,018,365 | 2,124,352 | 3,498,059 |
| North: Norway/Finland | 16,639 | 5,157 | 21,796 | 60,451 |
| Southwest: N Africa/Italy | 50,481 | 194,250 | 244,731 | 163,602 |
| Southeast: Balkans | 19,235 | 14,805 | 34,040 | 55,069 |
| West: France/Low Countries | 107,042 | 409,715 | 516,757 | 399,856 |
| Training Forces | 10,467 | 1,337 | 11,804 | 42,174 |
| Died of Wounds-All Fronts | 295,659 | - | 295,659 | - |
| Location not Given | 17,051 | 2,687 | 19,738 | - |
| Subtotal (Army) | 1,622,561 | 1,646,316 | 3,268,877 | 4,188,037 |
| Navy | 48,904 | 100,256 | 149,160 | 25,259 |
| Air Force | 138,596 | 156,132 | 294,728 | 216,579 |
| Total Combat: All Branches | 1,810,061 | 1,902,704 | 3,712,765 | 4,429,875 |
| Other deaths (Disease, accidents, etc.) | 191,338 | - | 191,338 | - |
| Overall total | 2,001,399 | 1,902,704 | 3,904,103 | 4,429,875 |
The Eastern Front was a complete meatgrinder but the Russians were propped up by lend-lease by several nations, and the Germans had to ensure their Western gains were secure.
Make Britain/America peace out/go neutral and Russia gets its head caved in by the Germans.
It'll still be VERY messy but jesus christ Russia had something like 50% of it's aviation gasoline from overseas. Halve the amount of sorties by Russia and Germany dominates the skies with trivial ease.
Yinko
Well-known member
The better counter-argument would probably be to note that Russia killed the majority of all military aged men west of the Urals. Something like 80-85% of all young men west of the Uraks died at that point in time. Plus, the Germans got their forces within the metropolitan area of Moscow, within visual range of the heart. There's a Sabaton song about this. So any deviation from the historical events would have likely resulted in their downfall... Likely a better future.
Can't say anything about alt history politics, but I can say that I really dislike the 'Russia won the war for the allies' myth.
On the whole, America with its 'Infinite production' cheatcode won the war.
Prince Ire
Section XIII
1) A German victory is very much not a better future
2) Logistics was the biggest limitation on German military operations at the culmination of their offensives into the Soviet Union, and not having to garrison the Western front does nothing about that
Logistics are going to be far less of a concern for the Germans when the Russians equally lose a comical amount of logistics without the infinite trucks America sent them.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Russia had enough warm bodies to slow down the German advance until Marshal Zhukov could shout down Stalin. Once the actual soldiers got control, the Red Army started to change as a fighting force.
By 1945 it was an unstoppable armoured fist, filled with crack troops who essentially ran over the German reserves.
By 1945 it was an unstoppable armoured fist, filled with crack troops who essentially ran over the German reserves.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
A more accurate summation would be that Russia not continuing to ally with Germany won the war; which really just came down to Hitler's arrogance and paranoia.
You're neglecting how much shit they were handed over for free.
In terms of pairs of boots alone they got 15 MILLION.
92% of railroad production was foreign.
30% of their planes weren't Soviet.
33% Trucks were American.
We're talking about an army where without lend lease, it would've been less than 50% as effective than it historically was.
Russian+Germany in an alliance was never going to work because of the whole NSDAP "We hate commies" thing.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
True; but the original plan as I understand it was for them to save each other for last after they defeated all of their shared enemies. Hitler merely decided to jump the gun in an attempt to get ahead of Stalin potentially doing the same.
Considering the after-ww2 "Num half of Europe" thing the Soviets did, Hitler doesn't seem to have been completely wrong in attacking the Soviets.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
1. Russia getting knocked out of the war would by no means guarantee German victory. They would still lack the ability to mount an effective invasion of Britain, they would still be navally blockaded, and even taking the Russian oilfields in the South would only do so much, given how vulnerable such places are to strategic bombing.
2. When you don't have to ship and supply enormous forces to the West, when you aren't spending massive fortunes fortifying the western coast of Europe, yes, it does do things about logistics. When the British, then Americans, aren't bombing your factories and infrastructure, when you can send your 88mm guns to the East because you don't need so much flak defending your industrial heartland, yes, that does make a difference.
Like any historical 'what if?' there are no guarantees for exactly how it would have gone, but there would have been more manpower and supply for fighting the Russians, which means they would have at a minimum bled more.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
The Third Reich would, unfortunately, get the opportunity to implement General Plan Ost though. Not so fond of the Soviets, but I’d rather that the Slavs weren’t slaughtered in their tens of millions.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
I quite agree. The USSR vs Nazi Germany was very much a case of 'Can we just have both lose?'
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Well, the Soviets were a bunch of totalitarian lunatics who sought to enforce their vision on the world.
They didn’t see the Polish as Helots though.
The worst crimes of Communism are usually the result of the broken ideology being forced on situations where it just won’t work and millions of people suffer/starve to death as a result (with the important exception of the Khmer Rouge, who other communists thought were completely mental to the point that Vietnam intervened on humanitarian grounds!).
The National Socialists meanwhile murdered twelve million people on purpose, and would have killed oh so very many more if they’d got the chance. Mass murder was a feature, not a bug.
It’s why, to use a fictional example, I tend to view the war between the Reich and the Union as the Galactic Empire vs the Yuzhan Vong. Both are evil, but one is a particular breed of batshit insane.
Yinko
Well-known member
I said a Russian defeat would have been a better future, not a German victory. If your premise is that the Russians were not responsible for the victory then these are not mutually exclusive.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
That unstoppable armored fist however was powered by American trucks and American fuel.
That is actually wrong.
Mass murder is a feature of any form of socialism... even the "democratic socialism", except these have to do it quietly. The only difference between National Socialism and Communism is in the way they define the "enemy of the people": Nazis do it on ethnic/racial basis that was adopted to class terms (hence Jews as a class, Slavs as a class), Commies do it on pure class terms.
But it is still, fundamentally, all about class warfare, and mass murder in the service of the class warfare.
EDIT:
Yeah, Nazis were ironically a good outcome. People miss the fact that even the Weimar Germany wanted a "payback" for the loss in World War I... and unlike the Nazis, it would, could and did ally with the Soviet Union on the long term, rather than as a short alliance of convenience.
Entire Nazi war machine was designed in the Soviet Union thanks to the Weimar-Soviet pact...
Soviets,not Russians.What russians remained fought on Hitler side.
And,that is why FDR blocked fuel for Japan AFTER german-soviet war started - to provoke Japan attacking USA,not soviets.
But,if Japan attack soviets? Siberia is theirs,but soviets would hold with Lend-Lease,And FDR would found a way to enter war,so germans would fall with help of Hitler "genius"
But - soviets would probably not get Central Europe,and lost Siberia.Better world.
And truck for soviet army,they would fight of foot otherwise.Trains for delivering ammo,part of which was from USA.
And machines for factories which let soviets made T.34.85 tanks and 57 AT guns.
No,they saw as as helots - but do not genocided,becouse were planning WW3 and taking entire Europe.That is why no kolchoz in Poland and deatroing churches - they would get Uprising,and could not invade Europe.
But,soviets before 1941 planned to genocide at least 8 millions of us.
In soviets they killed practically all polish males,even those who were commies.
And another proof that soviets were worst - when german genociders killed parents,but not children,they usually let them live among relatives and do not cared about them.
Soviets - they made children learn poems about soviet thugs which murdered their parents.They killed not only body,but also souls.