ReeeFallin
The Yankee Candle
Per @Big Steve's comment here: https://www.the-sietch.com/index.ph...occured-over-the-last-24-hours.726/post-10604
Can we have this thread here, then?
Can we have this thread here, then?
Commentary on the current affairs of The Sietch
- Thread starter ReeeFallin
- Start date
- Status
Yes but the discussion will have to operate within the limits of a "Positive forum with no swearing allowed for showing off creative things and having redemptive, positive, harmonious conversations in a cozy and chatty environment."
Cheers.
Cheers.
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I'd just to comment on how great it is that, in the midst of allegations about how everyone here is secretly a nazi, someone decided to set up a thread in general about their anime nazi waifu game.
That's not quite the peak of "actively not helping", but it's up there. It's maybe about the green boots of actively not helping.
That's not quite the peak of "actively not helping", but it's up there. It's maybe about the green boots of actively not helping.
Comrade Clod
Gay Space Communist
I'm not sure about ya'll being Nazi's but the positions some people be taking with regards to the actions of some historical figures and accusations about the political affiliations of sister sites (and of course that one person who is a fascist) may cause some to align their views into a negative manner about the subject.
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Accountant
No need to beat around the bush, we are to the right of you, of course we are all nazis, might just as well embrace the moniker. Has there been any thought what to call us once term Nazi loses its bite due to blatant overuse?
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Yeah, I'll admit; the owner being an out and out fascist was a major point of contention for me when I found out, along with all the other, in my mind, crazy nonsense she believes. Then again, I'd probably feel the same way if she were a communist, a libertarian, or any other political philosophy I strongly oppose. What's important is that here, unlike on the other forums like SB or SV, I can voice my own political opinions without having to deal with the fools who think shouting at people, and calling them names, constitutes winning some sort of ideological victory. Not to say that such does not happen on this forum at all; but at least here it's the exception, and not the rule.
Unhappy Anchovy
Well-known member
This is a post I will probably regret making, but in this case I feel it's necessary. After all, one of the lessons of the PM scandal on SB was that I ought to be more open and direct in speaking up in times of controversy. Should I have been clearer about how and why I participated in that PM? Or clearer about the fact that the vast majority of PM's content was innocuous chat? Yes, to both. So too should I be clear and direct here.
This post is, I hope, going to be one of hard truths. I hope you listen. At the very least, I hope you understand that I say this in good faith, not out of any malice or grudges.
So.
An initial disclaimer: yes, it's true that lots of people don't like the Sietch and would probably like to destroy it. There are real bad-faith actors out there. This is the internet, and there is nothing so infinitely petty and vindictive as internet drama. So I am not saying that there is no one out there who would, if they could, doxx admins, or engage in other forms of harassment. All such actions are unambiguously bad.
That said.
The last few weeks of activity on the Sietch have made me quite pessimistic about its current state, and I see a large number of simple errors or mistakes that might contribute to misunderstanding, and active choices that I think are bad for the community you're trying to build. That is to say, the first category are cases where I see what was intended and think it's defensible, but it was badly handled; and the second category are cases where I just shake my head and disapprove of what I think you (collectively) are trying to build.
Let's recap some of this mess.
So, now that I've tried to describe all that, my responses and thoughts.
I want to note straight off the bat that the most important qualifications for a staff member on a forum, here or anywhere else, are good judgement, patience, maturity, and awareness. I'm sure we've all known bad moderators and good moderators in our forum careers, but regardless of who they are, I hope we can agree on the central importance of judgement. To put it a way Zoe might appreciate, there is a phronesis to being a staff member, a practical wisdom and sense that governs everything you do. I don't claim that as an SB staff member I've always displayed that, and we're all fallible - but it is nonetheless central. In a public-facing role like that of a staff member, you need to be aware of what you say, how you serve as a role model, and how you set the tone for the community you look over. It's a heavy responsibility and a difficult balance to get right.
I understand that it's quite difficult, and so I don't mean this to be vindictive or cruel - but the story I've just told seems to me to contain a great many failures of judgement. In brief:
I am an outsider to this community and am not in a position to make demands. I am not calling for Zoe's resignation or anything like that. Rather, I am offering my sense of what has happened in the hope that Zoe and other staff will consider it and reflect carefully on what they might do going forward.
If I were pressed for a recommendation at this point, it would be: be patient, be careful, don't be impulsive, and talk more as a group before taking actions. I also strongly encourage staff here to consider how they serve as role models, or how they set the tone for the overall community.
This last point is important. You are all clearly aware that there is a perception of the Sietch as fascist, far-right, or alt-right. You can still be honest while also acting to counter that narrative. The appeal in particular concerned me, as it read like a doubling-down on the idea that this would be a right-wing forum and strongly opposed to some of the other sites in this informal 'SpaceBattles network'. In the older topic where I challenged Zoe for posting a fascistic manifesto, I briefly commented on how your choices about your community presents itself serve to include or exclude certain types of members.
I strongly encourage you to consider where you draw those lines of inclusion and exclusion.
As I said, I am quite pessimistic about the state of the Sietch. I reiterate that I offer all of this as good-faith advice, and I bear no one on the staff here any malice. Sometimes honesty and justice require the saying of hard words: but my intent is still to be redemptive, positive, and harmonious.
This post is, I hope, going to be one of hard truths. I hope you listen. At the very least, I hope you understand that I say this in good faith, not out of any malice or grudges.
So.
An initial disclaimer: yes, it's true that lots of people don't like the Sietch and would probably like to destroy it. There are real bad-faith actors out there. This is the internet, and there is nothing so infinitely petty and vindictive as internet drama. So I am not saying that there is no one out there who would, if they could, doxx admins, or engage in other forms of harassment. All such actions are unambiguously bad.
That said.
The last few weeks of activity on the Sietch have made me quite pessimistic about its current state, and I see a large number of simple errors or mistakes that might contribute to misunderstanding, and active choices that I think are bad for the community you're trying to build. That is to say, the first category are cases where I see what was intended and think it's defensible, but it was badly handled; and the second category are cases where I just shake my head and disapprove of what I think you (collectively) are trying to build.
Let's recap some of this mess.
Sietch staff are allowed to have multiple accounts, in order to distinguish their normal posting from posting in a staff capacity. The staff were not initially transparent about this: there was no public statement that there are multiple accounts for staff, and no identification of which normal accounts belong to which staff members.
Zoe or Empress_Zoe, an admin, had a normal account called 'Punch Card Girl'. Punch Card Girl made a post which began with the highly controversial phrase "I'm a fascist".
Punch Card Girl also made a topic talking about an early 20th century Futurist manifesto. When I myself criticised that manifesto for being fascistic, another poster, Greengrass, pointed out that Punch Card Girl had just identified as a fascist, and linked the post. Greengrass was infracted for this post.
Shortly afterwards, the Punch Card Girl account was terminated. After that account termination, Punch Card Girl's post identifying as fascist was edited to qualify and soften that statement. Greengrass' infracted post quoting that statement was also edited in order to contain the revised statement.
Greengrass, in apparent ignorance of staff dual accounts, asked Zoe why she was editing other people's posts. Big Steve explained the practice of multiple staff accounts, and Zoe stated that the staff would disclose their accounts. Spartan303 then posted refusing to do this. Emperor Tippy attempted to clarify that Zoe was using the 'royal we' and did not mean that other staff would disclose accounts, even though, as far as I can tell, Zoe's original post seemed to apply to all staff.
In the ensuing chaos, Zoe then posted a long manifesto and appeal claiming that the Sietch was under attack by malicious external actors, and notably accused SpaceBattles staff member Isil'zha of outing her as a transwoman. Her appeal seems to suggest that the previous mess to do with alternate accounts was due to stress under this pressure, and it concludes with an appeal for Sietch members to stand by her and the site in the face of external attacks.
Since then, all staff to my knowledge have disclosed their multiple accounts. Zoe has made a new alternate account, Captain_General, and has posted a long topic attempting to clarify her political views, as well as a discussion topic that looks like a response to that initial self-identification she made as a fascist.
An early request was made for these topics to be open for discussion, and now that discussion thread is here.
Zoe or Empress_Zoe, an admin, had a normal account called 'Punch Card Girl'. Punch Card Girl made a post which began with the highly controversial phrase "I'm a fascist".
Punch Card Girl also made a topic talking about an early 20th century Futurist manifesto. When I myself criticised that manifesto for being fascistic, another poster, Greengrass, pointed out that Punch Card Girl had just identified as a fascist, and linked the post. Greengrass was infracted for this post.
Shortly afterwards, the Punch Card Girl account was terminated. After that account termination, Punch Card Girl's post identifying as fascist was edited to qualify and soften that statement. Greengrass' infracted post quoting that statement was also edited in order to contain the revised statement.
Greengrass, in apparent ignorance of staff dual accounts, asked Zoe why she was editing other people's posts. Big Steve explained the practice of multiple staff accounts, and Zoe stated that the staff would disclose their accounts. Spartan303 then posted refusing to do this. Emperor Tippy attempted to clarify that Zoe was using the 'royal we' and did not mean that other staff would disclose accounts, even though, as far as I can tell, Zoe's original post seemed to apply to all staff.
In the ensuing chaos, Zoe then posted a long manifesto and appeal claiming that the Sietch was under attack by malicious external actors, and notably accused SpaceBattles staff member Isil'zha of outing her as a transwoman. Her appeal seems to suggest that the previous mess to do with alternate accounts was due to stress under this pressure, and it concludes with an appeal for Sietch members to stand by her and the site in the face of external attacks.
Since then, all staff to my knowledge have disclosed their multiple accounts. Zoe has made a new alternate account, Captain_General, and has posted a long topic attempting to clarify her political views, as well as a discussion topic that looks like a response to that initial self-identification she made as a fascist.
An early request was made for these topics to be open for discussion, and now that discussion thread is here.
So, now that I've tried to describe all that, my responses and thoughts.
I want to note straight off the bat that the most important qualifications for a staff member on a forum, here or anywhere else, are good judgement, patience, maturity, and awareness. I'm sure we've all known bad moderators and good moderators in our forum careers, but regardless of who they are, I hope we can agree on the central importance of judgement. To put it a way Zoe might appreciate, there is a phronesis to being a staff member, a practical wisdom and sense that governs everything you do. I don't claim that as an SB staff member I've always displayed that, and we're all fallible - but it is nonetheless central. In a public-facing role like that of a staff member, you need to be aware of what you say, how you serve as a role model, and how you set the tone for the community you look over. It's a heavy responsibility and a difficult balance to get right.
I understand that it's quite difficult, and so I don't mean this to be vindictive or cruel - but the story I've just told seems to me to contain a great many failures of judgement. In brief:
- The policy of multiple staff accounts should have been open and transparent from day one. This is the case regardless of whether you think it's a good policy at all. Personally I think multiple staff accounts are a bad idea, though I can see the case for them. However, even if the policy is a good idea, it should have been public from the start.
- The word 'fascist' has a common, publicly-understood meaning: a totalitarian state, militarism, at least ethnic chauvinism and probably racism, dictatorial control, revanchism, war, and atrocity or genocide. If Zoe does not support those things, she should never have identified as fascist at all, especially not in this context, and her choice to do so - even in a qualified way - is a case of spectacularly poor judgement. If she does support those things, then she should never be staff anywhere. I personally believe the former is the case.
- Greengrass should not have been infracted for saying something immediately relevant and on topic. If I criticise a poster's comments for sounding sympathetic to fascism, then it seems highly relevant whether or not the poster is a fascist.
- The exercise of staff power to edit Punch Card Girl's posts after the deletion was extremely sketchy. It would have been better to let those posts stand, or for Zoe to edit the first one only after clarifying to all that she is Punch Card Girl.
- Staff should have discussed the issue of multiple accounts among themselves before making public statements, thus avoiding the embarrassing contradiction of Spartan303 refusing to do something Zoe had just suggested as general policy. Patience and group discussion before acting is very important for a moderation team.
- Zoe's appeal to the Sietch overall comes off as deflection. It's a dramatic set of allegations that draws attention away from the legitimate issues to do with staff judgement and transparency. If there was going to be a general appeal as regards external users attacking the site, this was not the time.
- Further, the appeal, it seems to me, promotes a siege or bunker mentality here, and an us-versus-them narrative. It sets a tone for the site - and that tone is one of persecution and fear. This in my opinion is actively detrimental to the goal of supporting a diverse user-base with a wide range of views, and reinforces my growing fear that the Sietch will be a conservative or even far-right ghetto.
- As far as I'm aware certain statements within the appeal are simply untrue. In particular the accusation against Isil'zha is untrue. I will not comment further here - I don't wish to speak for Isil - but to my knowledge it is, at best, a significant misinterpretation of events.
- Further long topics by Zoe attempting to clarify her politics and discuss fascism are, to my mind, counterproductive. Clarifying one's views in the wake of a misunderstanding is wise, but it is very striking how much the Athenaeum is dominated by Zoe's essays on her views. I appreciate the desire to make some statement, but brevity is a virtue, and I very much doubt this was the best time for a long essay, especially as her views appear to be - even if non-fascist - quite unconventional and controversial.
I am an outsider to this community and am not in a position to make demands. I am not calling for Zoe's resignation or anything like that. Rather, I am offering my sense of what has happened in the hope that Zoe and other staff will consider it and reflect carefully on what they might do going forward.
If I were pressed for a recommendation at this point, it would be: be patient, be careful, don't be impulsive, and talk more as a group before taking actions. I also strongly encourage staff here to consider how they serve as role models, or how they set the tone for the overall community.
This last point is important. You are all clearly aware that there is a perception of the Sietch as fascist, far-right, or alt-right. You can still be honest while also acting to counter that narrative. The appeal in particular concerned me, as it read like a doubling-down on the idea that this would be a right-wing forum and strongly opposed to some of the other sites in this informal 'SpaceBattles network'. In the older topic where I challenged Zoe for posting a fascistic manifesto, I briefly commented on how your choices about your community presents itself serve to include or exclude certain types of members.
I strongly encourage you to consider where you draw those lines of inclusion and exclusion.
As I said, I am quite pessimistic about the state of the Sietch. I reiterate that I offer all of this as good-faith advice, and I bear no one on the staff here any malice. Sometimes honesty and justice require the saying of hard words: but my intent is still to be redemptive, positive, and harmonious.
LifeisTiresome
Well-known member
Hello all and especially to you Battlegrinder.
Am from one of the sister sites like SV or QQ or SB. Won't tell you which one. Just joined the site but have been lurking for a while.
Now, while I understand your sentiment but I feel that its kinda pointless. The fact of the matter is that you and everyone here is pretty much seen as Nazi simply because we aren't woke and agree with the left as they are right now. There is no point in trying to convince them that we aren't cause they would never believe it anyway.
What matters is how what would be called Normies see us.
Comrade Clod
Gay Space Communist
Holy shit I did not realise Punch Card was the admin.
Allow me to state my position on the matter after some consideration.
Unhappy Anchovy
Well-known member
To be blunt, a big part of the reason you're seen as Nazis is because you, well, act like Nazis.
Obviously I don't mean everyone by that, but you have to admit, the owner/administrator outright saying "I'm a fascist", and then posting a site-wide announcement asking people to rally to help her fight a phantasmal threat supposedly battering at the gates, and then posting long manifestos on her bizarre, aristocratic, corporatist, and anti-democratic politics is... pretty much the opposite of a good sign. And while not everyone here is in this camp, certain PM and Sietch posters are justly infamous for their views.
Hence, well, to the staff here: if you want to convince people that you're not Nazis, this is not how to do it.
I want to reiterate that I am not trying to take a cheap shot here. I'm trying to get across the way a lot of this looks from the outside. Frankly if I was on the inside I'd be very concerned there too and would be running around asking people what the hell they're doing - but here I am on the outside, and with the best will in the world, I am very concerned.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
The question also is, how do they WANT to see us? Because even if none of us were douchebags or even pointed out how we're not even fucking white(I'm Chinese-Filipino)they'd still prefer thinking lowly of us and even grab at anything to make us all out to be pure evil.
Even if it's just one of us, he/she is more than enough to validate the opinion of us all being a bunch of stereotypes, all while ignoring when it turns out we're not even white, male, straight, cis or even actually Republicans like how I remember Tim Pool's vids were dismissed by AussieHawker as all being Alt-Right even if as I've seen, guy's still a fucking Liberal and maintains that he believes in universal healthcare.....his viewership keeps making fun of him for maintaining that he's not changing
LifeisTiresome
Well-known member
No worries Unhappy Anchovy.
And yeah, I see your point. Though honestly, what I posted is just my opinion of how I see things. I didn't mean it as something others should follow. To my eyes, the left call everyone and everything Nazi or racist or sexist, to infinity. I honestly don't see the point in trying to change their perceptions.
Just how I see things.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Being PERFECT is the only way you can truly change their perceptions. Also, NEVER compromising on our principles, as we are sorta doing now, I mean as shown by UA and others, there are guys here who we disagree with. BUT we're not kicking them out and even if we both disagree, I think we ARE loving this place.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Not really a good look is it? Then again, from my perspective at least, it's really no worse than what I've seen staff members on SB or SV do. As long as they can hold themselves to the principles of free speech, it doesn't really matter to me what those in charge here believe. I'll still think Zoe is completely bonkers, though.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Say, what did she have against this "Horton" guy?
Say what you like, but she gave us this place.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
My parents are the reason why I'm alive and healthy, doesn't mean that I don't disagree with them from time to time. Then again, that comes with realising they're human.
LifeisTiresome
Well-known member
Left hate centrists and people who don't want to get involved. The only perfection that will change their perceptions is if you become Woke like them and also be perfect at it. But thats just me. Anyway, don't wish to continue this tangent.
I don't know this Zoe person at all aside that they own this site. I was made aware of this site and lurked for a bit and have decided to join up on a lark.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
What's a lark?
And I am cool with your disagreement @CarlManvers2019. But to some on the outside? They WANT us to fail. They just cannot be happy with us having any modicum of success. We left, and they cannot us succeed. Is Zoe a bit eccentric, sure. But she has my support because she stepped up and gave us a place to call our own when she didn't have to.
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