China's Coast Guards New Law: Authorized to Fire on Foreign Vessels in Disputed Waters

Husky_Khan

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As per the South China Morning Post:

According to the bill’s draft wording, the Chinese coastguard is allowed to use “all necessary means” to stop or prevent threats from foreign vessels, and specifies the circumstances under which different weapons – hand held, ship borne or airborne – can be used.


It also allows the coastguard to board and inspect foreign vessels in waters claimed by China, and to demolish structures built by other countries in disputed waters.

Yes... very rich in irony that. However while that article focused on the Philippines, it seems the Chinese Coast Guard is actually going somewhere else to be an asshole.


That's right, they're entering Japanese waters near the Senkaku Islands first in the wake of passing their new law, trying to intimidate Japanese fishing boats. Unfortunately for the Chinese Coast Guard, they're still refraining from and gunning down the Japanese fishery workers (like they would North Korean ones probably) in spite of a Chinese blessed legal mandate to do so.

Also apparently the new law unsurprisingly allows them to seize foreign vessels as well in lieu of sinking them. Needless to say, neighbors are saying this violates things like 'Freedom of Navigation' and the like, while China assures everyone it's completely in accordance with international law.
 

Zachowon

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As per the South China Morning Post:



Yes... very rich in irony that. However while that article focused on the Philippines, it seems the Chinese Coast Guard is actually going somewhere else to be an asshole.


That's right, they're entering Japanese waters near the Senkaku Islands first in the wake of passing their new law, trying to intimidate Japanese fishing boats. Unfortunately for the Chinese Coast Guard, they're still refraining from and gunning down the Japanese fishery workers (like they would North Korean ones probably) in spite of a Chinese blessed legal mandate to do so.

Also apparently the new law unsurprisingly allows them to seize foreign vessels as well in lieu of sinking them. Needless to say, neighbors are saying this violates things like 'Freedom of Navigation' and the like, while China assures everyone it's completely in accordance with international law.
I wanna see them open fire against a US carrier group passing through contested water
 

Knowledgeispower

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I wanna see them open fire against a US carrier group passing through contested water
Or better yet two or three or them. Also I totally see this law will once again like many a recent Chinese action get the JMSDF all the excuses it needs come next budget time for more money for if nothing else a more aggressive and thus more expensive stance in protecting Japanese fishing vessels
 

ShadowArxxy

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Also apparently the new law unsurprisingly allows them to seize foreign vessels as well in lieu of sinking them. Needless to say, neighbors are saying this violates things like 'Freedom of Navigation' and the like, while China assures everyone it's completely in accordance with international law.

It's completely in accordance with international law for a nation's Coast Guard to use force within its territorial waters; China's simply being aggressive in declaring that it's going to treat all of its claimed territorial waters this way regardless of disputed status.

I mean, it's definitely aggressive, but it's not logically outrageous for a sovereign country to literally go, "We are going to strongly treat our own position as correct."

I wanna see them open fire against a US carrier group passing through contested water

That's literally the entire point of U.S. Navy FONOPS, yes.

For those less familiar with the terminology: freedom of navigation exercises are about sending U.S. Navy warships sailing in international waters right up to the limits established by the UN Convention for the Law of the Sea, in order to actively maintain a functional precedent that those *are* international waters. Somewhat amusingly, the U.S. Navy does this as a matter of policy even though the United States itself has never ratified UNCLOS. The U.S. Navy has regularly carried out such operations as a matter of policy since the early '80s.

Honestly, none of the local navies that lay claim to these disputed waters would dare outright fire on the U.S. Navy, regardless of their nations' policies on use of force. They have, and will certainly continue to, play games with maneuvering dangerously close to force course changes at the risk of collision. But actually firing at the U.S. Navy will get them killed, and they all know it.
 

Zachowon

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It's completely in accordance with international law for a nation's Coast Guard to use force within its territorial waters; China's simply being aggressive in declaring that it's going to treat all of its claimed territorial waters this way regardless of disputed status.

I mean, it's definitely aggressive, but it's not logically outrageous for a sovereign country to literally go, "We are going to strongly treat our own position as correct."



That's literally the entire point of U.S. Navy FONOPS, yes.

For those less familiar with the terminology: freedom of navigation exercises are about sending U.S. Navy warships sailing in international waters right up to the limits established by the UN Convention for the Law of the Sea, in order to actively maintain a functional precedent that those *are* international waters. Somewhat amusingly, the U.S. Navy does this as a matter of policy even though the United States itself has never ratified UNCLOS. The U.S. Navy has regularly carried out such operations as a matter of policy since the early '80s.

Honestly, none of the local navies that lay claim to these disputed waters would dare outright fire on the U.S. Navy, regardless of their nations' policies on use of force. They have, and will certainly continue to, play games with maneuvering dangerously close to force course changes at the risk of collision. But actually firing at the U.S. Navy will get them killed, and they all know it.
China I think is stupid enough
 

ShadowArxxy

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China I think is stupid enough

So far, China hasn't even escalated to the levels that the U.K. and Iceland went to with each other during the so-called Cod Wars; they went as far as warships firing at and chasing down civilian fishing vessels, cutting nets, posturing at each other, and not only closely maneuvering but outright ramming each other.
 

Zachowon

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So far, China hasn't even escalated to the levels that the U.K. and Iceland went to with each other during the so-called Cod Wars; they went as far as warships firing at and chasing down civilian fishing vessels, cutting nets, posturing at each other, and not only closely maneuvering but outright ramming each other.
Iran has, but China is getting there.
 

Doomsought

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So far, China hasn't even escalated to the levels that the U.K. and Iceland went to with each other during the so-called Cod Wars; they went as far as warships firing at and chasing down civilian fishing vessels, cutting nets, posturing at each other, and not only closely maneuvering but outright ramming each other.
It depends on how Biden/Harris responds to their testing over the next year. They will slowly escalate until they get a response.
 

Zachowon

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No, they are not. Not yet. The Peoples Liberation Army Navy (yes, that is its name) is but a shadow of the strength of the US Navy. They'd get utterly curbstomped in a fight and they know it. They might posture but they're certainly not going to start a fight.
With Biden in office? I think they would get stupider, because they may think Biden would tell them not to fire back.
Especially if they keep claiming theyhave a larger Navy (blue and brown water combined they do compared to our Blue water navy)
 

Spartan303

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With Biden in office? I think they would get stupider, because they may think Biden would tell them not to fire back.
Especially if they keep claiming theyhave a larger Navy (blue and brown water combined they do compared to our Blue water navy)


Assuming its true that he is in their pocket, they can only exploit that so much. Eventually people will see it for what it blatantly is and remove him. I doubt a President Kamala Harris would do better in all honesty but she wouldn't have that dark cloud hanging over her like Biden does.
 

Zachowon

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Assuming its true that he is in their pocket, they can only exploit that so much. Eventually people will see it for what it blatantly is and remove him. I doubt a President Kamala Harris would do better in all honesty but she wouldn't have that dark cloud hanging over her like Biden does.
You really think it would stop them? having seen what I have, China is not her smartest
 

Spartan303

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You really think it would stop them? having seen what I have, China is not her smartest


We'll have to see, wont we. Still, my earlier point stands. China attacks a US Warship and they're going to shoot back.
 

Free-Stater 101

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We'll have to see, wont we. Still, my earlier point stands. China attacks a US Warship and they're going to shoot back.
Keep in mind the problem with warships is that they are islands. If China puts a glory hound in charge of one of their vessels they could fire anyway.
 

ShadowArxxy

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I know, but knowing our administration, they may disinvow the Sailors

If the President wants to back down and let China have its way, it is entirely within his executive discretion to direct the Navy to reduce or discontinue FONOPS in the South China Sea. President Trump actually did discontinue them for several months in 2017 as an informal concession to China in the hope that the Chinese would reciprocate by ramping up pressure on North Korea to curtail missile testing. China didn't, so he subsequently resumed FONOPs.

I think the absolute most we could see would be something similar to the USS Liberty incident, where the President was willing to severely downplay a shooting incident in order to avoid a confrontation deemed not in America's best interest. But it doesn't make any sense to send out FONOPS that are literally intended to *dare* foreign powers to mess with it, and then not respond if they actually do.

Keep in mind the problem with warships is that they are islands. If China puts a glory hound in charge of one of their vessels they could fire anyway.

An overly aggressive Chinese officer is vastly more likely to fire on ships of a rival claimant nation in the disputed waters than an American warship conducting FONOPS, since the U.S. *isn't* making any territorial claim.

Again, look to the Cod Wars as an example -- even the actual shooting incidents involved cannon fire to chase off civilian fishing vessels in the disputed waters. The closest anyone got to warship-on-warship was one case where a Royal Navy warship threatened to sink an Icelandic warship *if she continued firing at a British trawler*, and that line was not crossed.
 

Zachowon

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If the President wants to back down and let China have its way, it is entirely within his executive discretion to direct the Navy to reduce or discontinue FONOPS in the South China Sea. President Trump actually did discontinue them for several months in 2017 as an informal concession to China in the hope that the Chinese would reciprocate by ramping up pressure on North Korea to curtail missile testing. China didn't, so he subsequently resumed FONOPs.

I think the absolute most we could see would be something similar to the USS Liberty incident, where the President was willing to severely downplay a shooting incident in order to avoid a confrontation deemed not in America's best interest. But it doesn't make any sense to send out FONOPS that are literally intended to *dare* foreign powers to mess with it, and then not respond if they actually do.



An overly aggressive Chinese officer is vastly more likely to fire on ships of a rival claimant nation in the disputed waters than an American warship conducting FONOPS, since the U.S. *isn't* making any territorial claim.

Again, look to the Cod Wars as an example -- even the actual shooting incidents involved cannon fire to chase off civilian fishing vessels in the disputed waters. The closest anyone got to warship-on-warship was one case where a Royal Navy warship threatened to sink an Icelandic warship *if she continued firing at a British trawler*, and that line was not crossed.
And knowing what I now, China is stupid enough to do that
 

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