Bismarck ISOTed to RMS Titanic - and U-234 Discussion Thread

[Tyr Anazasi]

My other active TL has been posted here as well. Please discuss only in this thread.

Again, this TL is dedicated to PPaul, who had started a very similar TL. Also thanks to Vnix for editing.

Anyway, as I have several updates ready for editing, is here someone, who wants to do this job?

 

[Buba]

My other active TL has been posted here as well. Please discuss only in this thread.

OK, will transfer my post here, deleting the one defiling the "story only" thread
BTW maybe add such a warning? Or maybe make it more visible (I missed it if there was one).

What is it about the Bismark, the worst of all Treaty/post-Treaty battleships, that makes it interesting?
British propaganda, following the princile that "if the Bismark killed Hood - the bestest ship evah! - by looking at it angrily, then it must be the uberest warship evah!"?

The cargo of the U-234 - checked it on wiki too wow!

Titanic not sinking - lotsa butterflies, with Vancouver losing much business and population to Prince Rupert.

we're receiving an SOS.

SOS and CQD.

„What about the poor souls, trapped in the flooded parts of the ship?“

True, or movie?

Well, it wouldn’t technically be a real Holy Mass as he would speak English and German instead of Latin

Why would he say Mass in the vernacular? Sermon was in vernacular anyway.

And I dare say, the wine might be a bit better than in most churches.

And what does that matter? Roman Catholics (unlike other varieties of Catholics) were denied wine.

Sam, a small black man,

Political Correctness rises its head, or there really was a black steward?

Her secondaries are not in casemates, but in turrets. We know the Germans love a full-blown secondary battery compared to our Navy, which prefers the all big guns ship, still this is new.

1 - secondaries (or at least "2nd calibre Main Battery")in turrets are nothing new, were used by British and French and Italians ...
2 - since 1907 the RN and KM have been building all big gun ships with casematte'd secondaries, no difference here.
3 - the Bismark having all the little guns in turrets, even the puny 4.1" jobbies, indeed that's new. The puny jobbies being twins might be the biggest surprise of all!

Grosslinienshiff - did not know about it, thanks. I thought that Linienshiff was used by the KM - regardless if pre-dread or dread - until the Grosskampfschiff name was invented for the planned follow ups of the Bayern and Mackensen classes.

Thanks for bringing this fic here!

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

OK, will transfer my post here, deleting the one defiling the "story only" thread
BTW maybe add such a warning? Or maybe make it more visible (I missed it if there was one).

What is it about the Bismark, the worst of all Treaty/post-Treaty battleships, that makes it interesting?
British propaganda, following the princile that "if the Bismark killed Hood - the bestest ship evah! - by looking at it angrily, then it must be the uberest warship evah!"?

The cargo of the U-234 - checked it on wiki too wow!

Titanic not sinking - lotsa butterflies, with Vancouver losing much business and population to Prince Rupert.

SOS and CQD.

True, or movie?

Why would he say Mass in the vernacular? Sermon was in vernacular anyway.

And what does that matter? Roman Catholics (unlike other varieties of Catholics) were denied wine.

Political Correctness rises its head, or there really was a black steward?

1 - secondaries (or at least "2nd calibre Main Battery")in turrets are nothing new, were used by British and French and Italians ...
2 - since 1907 the RN and KM have been building all big gun ships with casematte'd secondaries, no difference here.
3 - the Bismark having all the little guns in turrets, even the puny 4.1" jobbies, indeed that's new. The puny jobbies being twins might be the biggest surprise of all!

Grosslinienshiff - did not know about it, thanks. I thought that Linienshiff was used by the KM - regardless if pre-dread or dread - until the Grosskampfschiff name was invented for the planned follow ups of the Bayern and Mackensen classes.

Thanks for bringing this fic here!

Hi,

the Bismarck class was IMO one of the best battleship designs of the time, except the rudder of course.

The cargo of U-234 were mostly blueprints- and Uranium.

The CQD signal was invented by Marconi. The German HSF at the same time, 1904, invented SOS. Indeed SOS was finally accepted as emergency call in 1906 and became in force by 1908 (In the US in 1912). Indeed CQD was radioed by the Titanic at first, but then also SOS. Ironically the German radio operator rightly assumed a ship in distress but said, it was sent an SOS as he didn't want to explain much, as time was short. Only little later the Titanic did indeed send SOS.

"What about the poor souls trapped in the flooded parts of the ship?" Movie, of course. Captain Smith had never the chance to say this, as he got down with his ship. Here, as most persons were rescued, he could go, as he was the last man. That there were some, who could escape later, and who were rescued by the boats, is not stopping this, as Smith was the last man, who could leave the ship and these persons were considered to be lost. Indeed there were many accusations against him, but he was never accused to leave the ship not as last man.

I am a protestant, so I didn't know, that the wine in the Roman catholic Church isn't drunk by all.

I don't know, if there was a black steward, but here he was. And no, no PC (which I don't like, BTW).

Secondaries were in question during this time. HMS Dreadnought had none, the Bellerophon class only 4" guns. That didn't change until the Iron Duke class. So the hint, that the Germans have such secondaries is a valid one, as the British, in contrast to the Germans, did believe not to use them. In Contrast to the Germans, who had 15 cm guns as secondaries from the beginning (well, since the Kaiser class PD of 1895). Indeed some PD had also 17 cm guns, which were soon reduced back to the caliber of 15 cm.

Linienschiff was the term of the HSF, but with the Nassau class they got the term Großlinienschiff for all Dreadnoughts. As they were much better ships. This term was used by the Russians as well, Linej Korabl (I don't guarantee the spelling). The Austrians used Schlachtschiffe, battleships. That Austrian term was later used in Germany as well. Großkampfschiff was the term describing both battleships and battle cruisers (which were only unofficially called Schlachtkreuzer, battle cruiser, but remained officially Große Kreuzer (Large Cruiser), which had the span of a large protected cruiser like the SMS Hertha over armoured cruisers like SMS Scharnhorst to the Ersatz Yorck class battle cruisers.

 

[Buba]

Hi to you too
I miss your posts on AH (where I lurk for obvious reasons )
We will have to disagree on the merits of the Bismark
I've read that using Gross Kreuzer - instead of the Schlachtkreuzer calque from English - was driven by semantics. The Naval Laws said so and so many ships of the line and so and so many Gross Kreuzer. Never mind that the von der Tann and its descendants were fast 2nd rate battleships - they were built under a different budget allocation. No idea how true this is ...

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

That was another reason. The Naval budget said, there were so and so many ships needed. After 20 years they needed to be replaced. So when the British built HMS Dreadnought, the Germans replaced their old ships with dreadnoughts. Only two dreadnoughts were indeed not replacing an old ship, that were SMS König (new ship S) and SMS Bayern (T). Only that these old ships they were replacing were coastal defence ironclads and predreadnoughts.

BTW, the Germans had not started to build an all big gun ship, as they didn't want to enrage the Brits. The design of SMS Nassau was, however, several times altered. At first to cope with the Lord Nelson class, it became clear, that the next class would be even more powerful. So for the first time an all big gun ship design was accepted, March 1905. A bit later the US had accepted the South Carolina class battleships. The Japanese had already laid down such ships, but with thin armour and due to the war with Russia with 10" guns instead of 12", from which only the two "classic" turrets at the bow and the stern remained. Only in October Fisher ordered HMS Dreadnought, which was more a by product to his battle cruisers. Then the British were very fast, as they had stored material for her. Even before USS South Carolina was laid down, HMS Dreadnought was ready. The Germans followed with SMS Nassau, which was laid down in 1907 and completed in 1909, a year before the US were ready with the South Carolinas, although they had started about a year earlier.

Fisher had set on the battle cruiser, which sacrificed armour for speed. The Germans also built battle cruisers, but with a fire power reduction for speed. Jutland showed that this was the better design.

 

[Buba]

Fisher had set on the battle cruiser, which sacrificed armour for speed.

This is complicated.
The six ships of the "I" class were armoured cruisers with battleship armament.
Their job was to kill cruisers. Putting them in harms' way was a mistake.
The German ships, and British ones with 13,5" and larger guns, were indeed battleships sacrificing one turret and some armour for speed.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Well, not really. The SMS Derfflinger had an armoured belt of 30 cm, the HMS Lion of only 229 mm. Better than the 15,2 cm of the I classes, though. For example, the König class had a belt of 35 cm and the Iron Duke class of 30,5 cm. However, they came near to this. Still, I would regard them as battlecruisers. The first real fast battleships were built in the 1930s.

 

[ATP]

There is one probloem - in 1914 everybody wanted war,becouse they belived in "short,victorious war" shit.Now, germans would attack with new weapons,win quickly - and after 20 years,when technology gap vanish.
France,Russia and England would start WW2.And win it again.

Unless...all ruling families was cousins,so maybe they decide to made peace to avoid wars which must lead to lost of their powers.

Good thing - no matter what future become,Lenin,StalinTrocky and Hitler would meet accidentally acciddents.

 

[Buba]

This is April 1912 - there still is time for Germany to amend the Army Law (bigger) and throw the planned amendment to the Fleet Law out the window. These were passed in May. With bigger budget the Army can be given more of the good stuff already in production, and some of the new toys. As in OTL Germany was spending on its Army less than France or Russia, this should not cause too much excitement abroad. And the Reichstag should not complain that much ...
As to the Flottengesetz - I suggest an amendment with no increase in fleet size but instead containing the 20 year life of capital vessels (or was that already added in 1908?) and - the biggest change - two Grosskampfschiff per year (plus three Kleinkreuzer) instead of one for one replacements (i.e. mix of OTL and AU). In other words, a gradual decrease in fleet numbers. After all, the size of capital ships has increased from c.15K tons apiece in 1906 to c.30K by 1912, and will hit 40K by 1916.
Under the 1900 Law the 5 battleships and 2 armoured cruisers built over every two years in e.g. 1905 displaced c. 100K tons. By 1913-14 four Bayerns or Mackensens - over two years, remember - that's 120-130K tons.
BTW - the Derfflingers should never be built here, being canceled at 5 to midnight, the two 1912 ships being the Mackenses ordered to their original design, with their odd looking A-X-Y - to use British designations - 3x2x38cm armament.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Well, anyone here should read the Sleepwalkers by Sir Chirstopher Clark before. It shows very well, how ww1 started. And no, the Germans didn't start it.

Anyway, the Flottengesetz will be modified and more money will be given to the army. But that is the future.

 

[Buba]

And no, the Germans didn't start it.

Oh, I know.
It was the Russians and French who did.

 

[ATP]

Oh, I know.
It was the Russians and French who did.

Really do not matter.Everybody except A-H belived in quick victory,so somebody eventually would start that.And- if germans was not idiots and actually used Schiellfen plan without any changes - they would really win quickly.Without any future help.
That german problem - they have good plan,but always must fuck it - and blame anybody but themselves for it.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

A new update has been posted. Thanks to Hohensaufen for editing.

 

[ATP]

A new update has been posted. Thanks to Hohensaufen for editing.

Bismarck from 1941 would have no photo of Holocaust victims,becouse it not happened yet.German started it at beginning of 1942.Only genocide germans committed till 1941 was genocide of Poles/like Wieluń/,especially polish elites,when german knights knightly murdered dpctors,engineers,gentry,priests and even boy scouts for crime of being polish doctors or boy scouts.

U-boot theorically could have them,but how? german deatch camps was ruled by SS,and only SS could made photo there.
All in all - why Kaiser should be angry? he arleady supported Herero genocide in Namibia,and killing polish children for praing in polish language.

And it still change notching - germany wonted war in OTL becouse Russia after Stolypin reforms becomed too powerfull.That would not change,so he still need war to put Russia down.

 

[Buba]

Sorry for posting in story thread - moved:
With Churchill being Churchill, I suggest dropping a hint or two that Bismark was constructed "in a secret place" - then watch German colonies be invaded by British "missionaries" with low knowledge of Scripture but high interest in waterfronts ... enjoy bratwurst with sauerkraut while giggling at the sight

BTW - considering how badly the Bismark was designed - engines! armour scheme! no DP secondary! HV lightweight shells! - basically a 1912 ship with powerful engines - the gains to the KM are not that far reaching.

The blueprints on the U-234 - most of these designs are duds or dead-ends or too advanced - e.g. the 3D stabilised 10.5cm FLAK, or the jet engines of the Me-262 which were too advanced for 1944, whole tech needed another 10-15 years to mature (the British jet engines were simpler and not-so-leading edge but they WORKED).

The German military could become derailed for years (and waste lots of money) by trying to make those designs work (hopefully the jets and pilot-killing Me-163 are sooo far ahead of contemporary tech that they will be given a pass). Or get landed with useless ships like those destroyers with 15cm guns.
Of course, there are gems among the chaff - radars, U-boats, diesels, welding, torpedos, FLAK 3.7cm ...
Hence the new tech is useful (mostly) but far from instant war winner. Especially that most of it is impossible to be made in quantity for several years (and some - for decades).

I agree with ATP - no deathcamp photos on the Bismark.
Like I've said in other threads - genociding "some tribals" (the Herrero) or beating schoolchildren for speaking the wrong language - at that time standard procedure in UK, France, USA ...

 

[ATP]

Sorry for posting in story thread - moved:
With Churchill being Churchill, I suggest dropping a hint or two that Bismark was constructed "in a secret place" - then watch German colonies be invaded by British "missionaries" with low knowledge of Scripture but high interest in waterfronts ... enjoy bratwurst with sauerkraut while giggling at the sight

BTW - considering how badly the Bismark was designed - engines! armour scheme! no DP secondary! HV lightweight shells! - basically a 1912 ship with powerful engines - the gains to the KM are not that far reaching.

The blueprints on the U-234 - most of these designs are duds or dead-ends or too advanced - e.g. the 3D stabilised 10.5cm FLAK, or the jet engines of the Me-262 which were too advanced for 1944, whole tech needed another 10-15 years to mature (the British jet engines were simpler and not-so-leading edge but they WORKED).

The German military could become derailed for years (and waste lots of money) by trying to make those designs work (hopefully the jets and pilot-killing Me-163 are sooo far ahead of contemporary tech that they will be given a pass). Or get landed with useless ships like those destroyers with 15cm guns.
Of course, there are gems among the chaff - radars, U-boats, diesels, welding, torpedos, FLAK 3.7cm ...
Hence the new tech is useful (mostly) but far from instant war winner. Especially that most of it is impossible to be made in quantity for several years (and some - for decades).

I agree with ATP - no deathcamp photos on the Bismark.
Like I've said in other threads - genociding "some tribals" (the Herrero) or beating schoolchildren for speaking the wrong language - at that time standard procedure in UK, France, USA ...

And german wonted war in 1914,becouse they knew that Russia would be to powerfull it fight in next 10 years.Which means war on schedule,and unless they win thanks to Schielfen plan not changed,they would still not win.Peace,then.
Which mean WW2 between normal Russia,France and England against Germany in 1940,without technological advantage.
Germany lost,just like in OTL.

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Bismarck from 1941 would have no photo of Holocaust victims,becouse it not happened yet.German started it at beginning of 1942.Only genocide germans committed till 1941 was genocide of Poles/like Wieluń/,especially polish elites,when german knights knightly murdered dpctors,engineers,gentry,priests and even boy scouts for crime of being polish doctors or boy scouts.

U-boot theorically could have them,but how? german deatch camps was ruled by SS,and only SS could made photo there.
All in all - why Kaiser should be angry? he arleady supported Herero genocide in Namibia,and killing polish children for praing in polish language.

And it still change notching - germany wonted war in OTL becouse Russia after Stolypin reforms becomed too powerfull.That would not change,so he still need war to put Russia down.

Russia is now regarded as it is. A giant on feet of clay. And the man who had the photos was General Keßler, who was indeed a member of the Widerstand. So he could have these photos. And it was my invention, that he had.

As for the Herero and Nama genocide, read this first:

Völkermord an den Hereros in Deutsch-Südwestafrika

In der Armenien-Debatte hat der türkische Präsident Erdogan den Deutschen vorgeworfen, sie verdrängten den Völkermord an den Herero in Südwestafrika. Neue Forschungen wecken aber Zweifel, dass es einen Genozid gab. Von Bartholomäus Grill

www.spiegel.de

 

[Tyr Anazasi]

Sorry for posting in story thread - moved:
With Churchill being Churchill, I suggest dropping a hint or two that Bismark was constructed "in a secret place" - then watch German colonies be invaded by British "missionaries" with low knowledge of Scripture but high interest in waterfronts ... enjoy bratwurst with sauerkraut while giggling at the sight

BTW - considering how badly the Bismark was designed - engines! armour scheme! no DP secondary! HV lightweight shells! - basically a 1912 ship with powerful engines - the gains to the KM are not that far reaching.

The blueprints on the U-234 - most of these designs are duds or dead-ends or too advanced - e.g. the 3D stabilised 10.5cm FLAK, or the jet engines of the Me-262 which were too advanced for 1944, whole tech needed another 10-15 years to mature (the British jet engines were simpler and not-so-leading edge but they WORKED).

The German military could become derailed for years (and waste lots of money) by trying to make those designs work (hopefully the jets and pilot-killing Me-163 are sooo far ahead of contemporary tech that they will be given a pass). Or get landed with useless ships like those destroyers with 15cm guns.
Of course, there are gems among the chaff - radars, U-boats, diesels, welding, torpedos, FLAK 3.7cm ...
Hence the new tech is useful (mostly) but far from instant war winner. Especially that most of it is impossible to be made in quantity for several years (and some - for decades).

I agree with ATP - no deathcamp photos on the Bismark.
Like I've said in other threads - genociding "some tribals" (the Herrero) or beating schoolchildren for speaking the wrong language - at that time standard procedure in UK, France, USA ...

At first, the photos are from General Kessler from U-234. And for the design faults of the Bismarck, well, there are some of course. The rudder, no DP secondaries. But with the armour scheme and especially the HV "lightweight" shell I tend to disagree. The HV shells made them very accurate and gave them a punch above their class. The 28,3 cm shells of Scharnhorst were as good as the British 15" guns. And the 38 cm L 51,66 SK C/34 was only slightly worse than the slightly newer 16"/45 Mark 6 of the USN. They had not the punch of the US guns, but were more accurate and could fire faster. That are two philosophies, which are on the opposite end of the range. Do you want to hit faster and more accurate or do you want to have a heavy punch.

Indeed most blueprints are nothing worth for the immedeate future. You can't build a Me 262 in 1914 and likely not in 1920. But it can help you building better planes now. A Fokker D.VII in 1914 would be a match for every plane. Especially as the idea to have fighters wasn't born yet! That is the real wealth. You can build some goodies already. MG 42 and StG 44 equipped troops in the defensive against attacking French forces, attacking French forces with tactics of half a century ago. Ouch. Or the steel helmet. It will lower casualities by far.

Oh, the Germans ha learned concerning the destroyers. The last class designed, the Type 1945, would have carried 12,8 cm twin mounts. Which had BTW a slightly greater shell than the USN 5" gun, a greater range and a similar rate of fire.

Zerstörer 1945 History

The German Kriegsmarine, Zerstörer 1945 History, Destroyer, Zerstörer 1945, The last German destroyer designs of World War II., Zerstörer 1945 class

www.german-navy.de

They will avoid many mistakes made. But they will make other ones.

Oh, and stay tuned. I have some surprises. And yes, the Brits will look at the German colonies... Stiff upper class British naval officers dealing with "half wild blacks".

 

[ATP]

Russia is now regarded as it is. A giant on feet of clay. And the man who had the photos was General Keßler, who was indeed a member of the Widerstand. So he could have these photos. And it was my invention, that he had.

As for the Herero and Nama genocide, read this first:

Völkermord an den Hereros in Deutsch-Südwestafrika

In der Armenien-Debatte hat der türkische Präsident Erdogan den Deutschen vorgeworfen, sie verdrängten den Völkermord an den Herero in Südwestafrika. Neue Forschungen wecken aber Zweifel, dass es einen Genozid gab. Von Bartholomäus Grill

www.spiegel.de

Russia is giant on clay feet now,as soviet were - becouse they fucked their economy.Stolypin reforms made it stronger,and by 1950 they would replace USA as first economy,if nothing changed.That is why Wall street pay Trocky&his thugs to get there and made revolution.
IF germany do not change that,then they become Russia vassal about 1950,too.

That means war,and as fast as possible.They only need wait for french Zergrush,execute Schielfen plan,and win in 2 years.Only their own stupidity could stop them - just like stopped them in OTL.
German lost WW1 thanks to their own stupidity,they could do that again.They have the same generals,after all.

Pictures - Deux ex could work,but for what? german never hide their crimes in Poland,like destroing Wieluń town including hospital with big red cross of roof.Just show that.

Herero - 80% or more died thanks to german,and Kaiser do not hanged responsible,which made him responsible too.Unless you belive that genociding some tribal do not count,it was firsy 20th century genocide.

 

[Buba]

38 cm L 51,66 SK C/34 was only slightly worse than the slightly newer 16"/45 Mark 6 of the USN. They had not the punch of the US guns, but were more accurate and could fire faster

Higher RoF based upon length of loading cycle is ilusionary. Actual RoF in combat was 3 shots every two minutes. This applies across the board to all guns and all navies.

As to KM destroyers - my favourite is the T-22

Steel helmet - true. And anything the UTs say about it will be confirmed by Balkan Wars which are about to begin.

Lots of innovations which are not on board but the UTs simply know about - Stoke-Brandt infantry mortars, split trails for artillery guns (already invented by the French, but not yet widespread), howitzer only divisional artillery ... list is endless