Bismarck ISOTed to RMS Titanic - and U-234 Discussion Thread

ATP

Well-known member
Higher RoF based upon length of loading cycle is ilusionary. Actual RoF in combat was 3 shots every two minutes. This applies across the board to all guns and all navies.

As to KM destroyers - my favourite is the T-22 :)

Steel helmet - true. And anything the UTs say about it will be confirmed by Balkan Wars which are about to begin.

Lots of innovations which are not on board but the UTs simply know about - Stoke-Brandt infantry mortars, split trails for artillery guns (already invented by the French, but not yet widespread), howitzer only divisional artillery ... list is endless :)

All true.
Now,about new chapters:
1.Ottomans lost first war,but win next when all countries ganged on Bulgary.
2.Germans have no colonies where white people could live in good condition,Namibia where they genocided Herero is mostly desert.
3.They do not trust Poles,after stealing their land and beating their children? it seems they are not completly idiotic.
4.Hitler in 1912 were german nationalist,so there is no possible for him to try attack german authorities.

Most important - they do not undarstandt why England attacked them.They would attack anybody who could dominate Europe,in 1912 that country was Germany.
Best possible action - why till Russia become more powerfull then Germany,and then England would made coalition against Russia.
Or,even better,they should remember that strong Prussia was created as England tool in Europe.Agree to be England tool again,and there would be peace.
 

Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
To the Anglo-German relations. Under Victoria Britain was no foe of Germany. That changed with her son Edward, because of several reasons. And family was only one point. About 1900 the British were in a difficult situation. They had troubles with France (Fashoda crisis 1898) AND Russia (Great Game). And France and Russia were allies. The Germans, knowing what had happened in the 7-years-war and partly also in the Napoleonic wars, didn't want to fight for the British colonies. So Britain allied with France and Russia. An alliance, which was problematic from the very beginning. There were many other voices and it's no clear, if Britain would have joined the war in 1915 or later.

That's a short summary. Just look at the Sleepwalkers by Christopher Clark.
 

ATP

Well-known member
To the Anglo-German relations. Under Victoria Britain was no foe of Germany. That changed with her son Edward, because of several reasons. And family was only one point. About 1900 the British were in a difficult situation. They had troubles with France (Fashoda crisis 1898) AND Russia (Great Game). And France and Russia were allies. The Germans, knowing what had happened in the 7-years-war and partly also in the Napoleonic wars, didn't want to fight for the British colonies. So Britain allied with France and Russia. An alliance, which was problematic from the very beginning. There were many other voices and it's no clear, if Britain would have joined the war in 1915 or later.

That's a short summary. Just look at the Sleepwalkers by Christopher Clark.

England would attack anybody who could dominate Europe - and they always were too late.First they still attacked Spain when real hegemon was France,then they keep trying attacking France when real danger become Prussia.
Considering their lack of awareness,they probably still keep see Germany as main enemy even when Russia become world superpower.
In 1912 nothing short of abadonning fleet by Germany would change their mind.And if Germany do not attack Belgium,they would find a pretext to attack them anyway.
 

Buba

A total creep
There were many other voices and it's no clear, if Britain would have joined the war in 1915 or later.
Very true.
1 - the UK would have had a new, Tory, Government. The political calendar demanded an election in 1915 and I seriously doubt the Liberals winning - they've been in power for ten years already. I've seen it affirmed that a Conservative Gov't would had been more hawkish in foreign policy than the Libs and thus just as likely - if not more - to jump upon the Central Powers. However, it might not have the sort of Francophiles/Germanophobes like Grey, Churchill, Wilson ...
2 - the new British Government might had taken more notice of French naval plans - 12 battleships built or building (of the latter - most launched by end of '14!), plus likely to lay down 4 more in 1915. However, a change of Government in France (elections!) was also likely, with the new Gov't (I've seen argued on boards like this) likely to roll back the 3 Year Service Act - i.e. a Government less likely to cause a war like the one in OTL 1914;
3 - In 1915 Russia could/would be finalising the designs for 16" gunned battleships or even laying them down. And in Sankt Peterburg delusions of grandeur and own might were very strong - 1915 Russia would not be the amenable (to British world domination) Russia of c. 1907 but Talking Big.

Hence indeed in 1915 the political and/or international landscape would be different, with maybe a less anti-German - or simply less pro-French - UK Gov't in power.
 
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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
The CQD signal was invented by Marconi. The German HSF at the same time, 1904, invented SOS. Indeed SOS was finally accepted as emergency call in 1906 and became in force by 1908 (In the US in 1912). Indeed CQD was radioed by the Titanic at first, but then also SOS. Ironically the German radio operator rightly assumed a ship in distress but said, it was sent an SOS as he didn't want to explain much, as time was short. Only little later the Titanic did indeed send SOS.

To add a bit more detail, "CQD" is an extension of the prior convention of "CQ" as an "all stations" call, being literally "CQ Distress", i.e. "Transmitting to all stations, I am in distress."
 

Buba

A total creep
I like
Grosskampfschiff
more than
Grosslinienschiff
But as I don't know the German language - my opinion is purely aesthetic :)

London shipyard - can it build super-Dreadnaughts bigger than 30K tons? I thought that no battleships were built after the HMS Thunderer (aka "last cockney battleship") due to size limits.

I suspect that Stettin was dropped as battleship building site in Germany for the same reason.

38cm in 1912 does raise eyebrows. However, IMO everybody will take it as Germany waving its naval penis about and skipping one calibre - moving from 30,5cm to 38cm, bypassing 34-35cm rifles which everybody else (Buba cries "boo-hoo! my guns so puny!" in German :)) had been using since 1910 or so. All in all a sensible and logical move. Surprising by nothing having leaked out about it, but not out of the blue as such.
Also - this skip is exactly what happened in OTL. Italy - same.
With the Canadian Plan (i.e. Canada funding 3 ships built in the UK) actually becoming reality - 8QE ships - then 99% there will be no "R" class and the British will lay down a battleship with 18" rifles in '14, or by '15 latest. Skipping 16,5" (42cm) and regaining the edge ...

I'd had lied about the speed more - I'd had claimed 23-24kn.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
I like
Grosskampfschiff
more than
Grosslinienschiff
But as I don't know the German language - my opinion is purely aesthetic :)

London shipyard - can it build super-Dreadnaughts bigger than 30K tons? I thought that no battleships were built after the HMS Thunderer (aka "last cockney battleship") due to size limits.

I suspect that Stettin was dropped as battleship building site in Germany for the same reason.

38cm in 1912 does raise eyebrows. However, IMO everybody will take it as Germany waving its naval penis about and skipping one calibre - moving from 30,5cm to 38cm, bypassing 34-35cm rifles which everybody else (Buba cries "boo-hoo! my guns so puny!" in German :)) had been using since 1910 or so. All in all a sensible and logical move. Surprising by nothing having leaked out about it, but not out of the blue as such.
With the Canadian Plan (i.e. Canada funding 3 ships built in the UK) actually becoming reality - 8QE ships - then 99% there will be no "R" class and the British will lay down a battleship with 18" rifles in '14, or by '15 latest. Skipping 16,5" (42cm) and regaining the edge ...

I'd had lied about the speed more - I'd had claimed 23-24kn.
Wait,i thought that british built at the time battleships with 343mm guns.But after they see germans with 38 cm,they really could skip to 457mm.
But against whom they use it ? if they consider Russia as bigger threat,then they would support Germany.Unfortunatelly,with Germany making planes and other Wunderwaffe,Brits probably go after them just like in OTL.

P.S Fun thing is - Germany do not need Bismarck and planes to win,all they need is not change Schielfen plan and take Paris in 1914.After that war would end in 1915.
All what keep germans from winning is their own stupidity,but consider that dudes who come to them belive in betreyal shit as for reason why they lost,they would lost again even with Bismarck.
Even french zergrusch in red pants do not save them,just like it do not save them in canon.
 

Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
I like
Grosskampfschiff
more than
Grosslinienschiff
But as I don't know the German language - my opinion is purely aesthetic :)

London shipyard - can it build super-Dreadnaughts bigger than 30K tons? I thought that no battleships were built after the HMS Thunderer (aka "last cockney battleship") due to size limits.

I suspect that Stettin was dropped as battleship building site in Germany for the same reason.

38cm in 1912 does raise eyebrows. However, IMO everybody will take it as Germany waving its naval penis about and skipping one calibre - moving from 30,5cm to 38cm, bypassing 34-35cm rifles which everybody else (Buba cries "boo-hoo! my guns so puny!" in German :)) had been using since 1910 or so. All in all a sensible and logical move. Surprising by nothing having leaked out about it, but not out of the blue as such.
Also - this skip is exactly what happened in OTL. Italy - same.
With the Canadian Plan (i.e. Canada funding 3 ships built in the UK) actually becoming reality - 8QE ships - then 99% there will be no "R" class and the British will lay down a battleship with 18" rifles in '14, or by '15 latest. Skipping 16,5" (42cm) and regaining the edge ...

I'd had lied about the speed more - I'd had claimed 23-24kn.


Well, the designation Großkampfschiff is describing any major warship, so also battlecruisers. The German term Großlinienschiff meant just great battleship in contrast to the predreadnoughts, which were battleships. These "ships of the line", as Germany still called their battleships, had to be distinguished from the dreadnoughts.

Interestingly the Germans didn't use the 35 cm guns, except the Mackensen class, as they had compared the British 34,3 cm guns as equal to the 30,5 cm guns they used. Another reason was also not to PO Britain even more. However, by 1912 the Germans had already switched to 38 cm guns, before Britain announced their ships. It was only that Britain could construct their ships faster.

With the last class planned the guns would go up to 42 cm (L20 e alpha).

Anyway, the Germans didn't lie more, as they felt, it was a bit too much to reduce the speed of Bismarck even more.

Oh, and Britain will need to cope with the Bismarck and thus put much money into the development of battleships. The Germans will put more money into the navy, but not much more. And they will build other ships than Britain...
 

Buba

A total creep
they had compared the British 34,3 cm guns as equal to the 30,5 cm guns they used.
Germany - light shell, high velocity, more accurate at shorter ranges
Britain - heavy shell, medium velocity, more accurate at longer ranges

The KM (regardless if the K stood for Kaiserliche or Kriegs) was certain that it will be fighting its battles in poor visibility in the North Sea. Because it never has good visibility and the British will always fight on German terms. Both guns and the armour scheme were tailored to short range fights.
Setting itself up as a one trick pony ...
The British were more flexible.
Still, until the RN spams QE's and then 4x2x18" ships the Bismarck is the most powerful ship afloat.

BTW - was the Kiel Canal expanded between 1914 and 1940? The Bismarck barely fitted in 1941. She certainly does will not fit in 1912, as the Kanal is undergoing dredging/expansion, a project will be concluded in 1914.
Any dredging needed in e.g. Wilhelmshaven? The Bismarck doubtlessly cannot enter (or exit) the base at low tide (see slaughter of German light cruisers in 1914) at present, the approaches need to be deepened.
I might had asked about this before - sorry for sclerosis :)
 
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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
I would point out that 18" guns were historically determined to be substantially non-optimal. The best caliber for battleship guns is 16", but the British 15"/42 is already all-around superior to Bismarck's 38 cm SK C/34. Bismarck is a large and powerful ship, but she's fundamentally a minor evolution of WWI capital ship design, featuring none of the breakthrough advances that characterized the ultimate battleships of the "true" WWII generation.

In other words -- while Bismarck is individually superior to any warship in the world when ISOTed, her margin of superiority against the best WWI ships is actually dangerously thin. For the most part, what makes her alarming is that no other warship can match *both* her speed and her firepower. However, an "improved Queen Elizabeth" class would provide the Royal Navy with a vessel on par with Bismarck, and the cancelled G3 and N3 classes would be dramatically superior.

In a world where Bismark is ISOTed in 1912, the Washington Naval Treaty is off the table entirely, and the United States and Great Britain will build Germany into the poorhouse in rather short order. If anything, this might make history even worse for Germany, as the threat of the German super-battleship could induce Great Britain to actively maintain better relations with Japan, making any future naval war a battle of one great and two major naval powers against one major power.
 

ATP

Well-known member
I would point out that 18" guns were historically determined to be substantially non-optimal. The best caliber for battleship guns is 16", but the British 15"/42 is already all-around superior to Bismarck's 38 cm SK C/34. Bismarck is a large and powerful ship, but she's fundamentally a minor evolution of WWI capital ship design, featuring none of the breakthrough advances that characterized the ultimate battleships of the "true" WWII generation.

In other words -- while Bismarck is individually superior to any warship in the world when ISOTed, her margin of superiority against the best WWI ships is actually dangerously thin. For the most part, what makes her alarming is that no other warship can match *both* her speed and her firepower. However, an "improved Queen Elizabeth" class would provide the Royal Navy with a vessel on par with Bismarck, and the cancelled G3 and N3 classes would be dramatically superior.

In a world where Bismark is ISOTed in 1912, the Washington Naval Treaty is off the table entirely, and the United States and Great Britain will build Germany into the poorhouse in rather short order. If anything, this might make history even worse for Germany, as the threat of the German super-battleship could induce Great Britain to actively maintain better relations with Japan, making any future naval war a battle of one great and two major naval powers against one major power.

So,Germany need war quickly,before that happened ? Japan in 1912 have no reasons to forsake alliance with England,after all.
Allies in theory should win,but....
But- there is major problem - France.
If war start quickly,they would charge in their red pants into german trap,and all german need is execute Schielffen plan and take Paris.Russia alone would be crushed in next year,and war would end with german Europe.Unless they fuck it just like in OTL.
 

Buba

A total creep
the United States and Great Britain will build Germany into the poorhouse in rather short order
Yes, please, build three or four battleships for every one of ours.
Maybe five? Even better!
Pretty please?
Meanwhile we pour money into more howitzers and machineguns for the army as that is what really matters ... :)
Or, to keep things nautical, one hundred U-Boots a year for three years ... and acustic homing torpedos ...
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Yes, please, build three or four battleships for every one of ours.
Maybe five? Even better!
Pretty please?
Meanwhile we pour money into more howitzers and machineguns for the army as that is what really matters ... :)
Or, to keep things nautical, one hundred U-Boots a year for three years ... and acustic homing torpedos ...

That might be a problem for Great Britain, but the United States has the economy to literally build more everything in all categories, and better quality designs to boot.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Yes, please, build three or four battleships for every one of ours. Maybe five? Even better!

Keep in mind that from the end of the nineteenth century until WWI started, Great Britain and Germany were already in an active naval arms race over dreadnought construction. Germany actually tried to call the race off in 1912, proposing a deal in which Germany would cease new dreadnought construction and concede naval superiority to Great Britain in exchange for Britain's promise to remain neutral if Germany went to war and was not the aggressor. The British refused this deal because they felt that they could afford a continued arms race and Germany could not, and also because the British Foreign Secretary (Sir Edward Grey) was strongly anti-German.

By 1914, Germany recognized that further dreadnought construction was simply not economically viable and switched to a submarine-centric naval strategy. Nonetheless, going into World War I they still had the second-strongest navy in Europe, with 15 dreadnought battleships and 7 battlecruisers -- far less than Britain's staggering 20 dreadnoughts and 9 battlecruisers, but far more than anyone else.

The appearance of Bismarck in this ISOT would cause the British to conclude that German diplomatic overtures to end the arms race were obviously part of deception efforts intended to help conceal the construction of this new German super-battleship. But perhaps even more significantly, gaining such a powerful battleship for free, gaining having access to considerable technical insight from her, and now knowing that the submarine warfare of WWI was a failed strategy -- will certainly lead Germany to stick to a surface warship strategy.
 
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Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
Germany - light shell, high velocity, more accurate at shorter ranges
Britain - heavy shell, medium velocity, more accurate at longer ranges

The KM (regardless if the K stood for Kaiserliche or Kriegs) was certain that it will be fighting its battles in poor visibility in the North Sea. Because it never has good visibility and the British will always fight on German terms. Both guns and the armour scheme were tailored to short range fights.
Setting itself up as a one trick pony ...
The British were more flexible.
Still, until the RN spams QE's and then 4x2x18" ships the Bismarck is the most powerful ship afloat.

BTW - was the Kiel Canal expanded between 1914 and 1940? The Bismarck barely fitted in 1941. She certainly does will not fit in 1912, as the Kanal is undergoing dredging/expansion, a project will be concluded in 1914.
Any dredging needed in e.g. Wilhelmshaven? The Bismarck doubtlessly cannot enter (or exit) the base at low tide (see slaughter of German light cruisers in 1914) at present, the approaches need to be deepened.
I might had asked about this before - sorry for sclerosis :)

The Bismarck could, if barely, enter Wilhelmshaven even without using the so called Raeder lock (which was IIRC not complete in 1941). Also the Kiel Canal was not widened after 1914, so Bismarck could pass the Canal and the locks.

@ShadowArxxy :

Also the Bismarck was quite good at relative great ranges. At about 16.650 m HMS Hood was sunk with the fifth salvo; and there are, IIRC, only two incidents, where ships were hit at a range of over 20 km, once by HMS Warspite, the other by Gneisenau.

The 38 cm SK C/34 of Bismarck could fire up to 3 800 kg (AP) shells per minute. A shell could hit, at least theoretical, a target up to 36.650 m away. At 18.000 m it could penetrate 419 mm belt armour or 75 mm deck armour. She had a belt armour of 22 to 32 cm and a deck armour of 5 to 12 cm. As for all battleships she was not built to cope with heavy bombs.

The British 15" Mk. I could fire a 871 kg shell (AP) up to twice a minute at a maximum range of about 26.500 m. As noted before the advantage of the German gun in range is de facto not given. Anyway, at about 18.000 m 279 mm belt armour could be penetrated. The QE had a maximum belt of 330 cm and a deck armour of up to 76 mm.

Sources: navweaps.com, Wikipedia

The farther away the opponents fight, the more the deck armour is threatened, the nearer the belt armour.

Starting the battle at about 22 km Bismarck could penetrate 393 mm belt and 104 mm deck armour, the QEs a little less than 229 mm belt armour. A QE needed to be near as about 13.000 m to endanger the main belt armour protecting the vital areas. Bismarck did so since over 25.000 m!

Also, there was no real arms race, that was more a British admiralty propaganda to get more toys, err, ships. The Germans built to have a fleet strong enough to deter Britain, but not to reach the numbers. By 1912 the Germans had not given this up, as the German plan 2/3 of the British fleet was considered as sufficient, wanted this quota. And guess what, the British even accepted! That the deal didn't succeeded, was the British fault, as they didn't want to give a mutual pact of non aggression in the case of an Entente attack. Even if France attacked Germany, they didn't want to guarantee the neutrality. Therefore the deal was useless.

But indeed, the British will now build more BBs (as will do many other nations) and therefore neglect other important arms investments. The Germans will build only SOME BBs but concentrate on cruisers, destroyers and uboats. And indeed, the real treasure is not the ship, but the plans and the knowledge.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I like the story overall, but I do have a bit of constructive criticism for you. One is that you might want to come up with a proper title for the story and/or to explain what ISOT means to the less savvy like myself (I did go and look it up, but it would be better if you made a note of it in your intro). Also, you should really avoid internet slang in your dialog (like IIRC), and since you aren't making a script, there's no need for you to say you're starting in media res, you could just do it. You also might want to be more descriptive of how things look (also characters), where people are in relation to each other when they're standing or sitting in a room talking, etc.
 

Tyr Anazasi

Well-known member
I like the story overall, but I do have a bit of constructive criticism for you. One is that you might want to come up with a proper title for the story and/or to explain what ISOT means to the less savvy like myself (I did go and look it up, but it would be better if you made a note of it in your intro). Also, you should really avoid internet slang in your dialog (like IIRC), and since you aren't making a script, there's no need for you to say you're starting in media res, you could just do it. You also might want to be more descriptive of how things look (also characters), where people are in relation to each other when they're standing or sitting in a room talking, etc.

Good ideas. I will try to follow them. But be a bit patient, as the next updates are already written.
 

Buba

A total creep
That might be a problem for Great Britain, but the United States has the economy to literally build more everything in all categories, and better quality designs to boot.
The pre-WWI world is very different to that after it. The USA may be quite rich but has a smaller economy than the British Empire and is chiefly an exporter of farm produce.

It was WWI - with accompanying self-destruction of European Powers - which put the USA on the road to world domination.
The Bismarck could, if barely, enter Wilhelmshaven even without using the so called Raeder lock (which was IIRC not complete in 1941). Also the Kiel Canal was not widened after 1914, so Bismarck could pass the Canal and the locks.
Good to know, thanks!

and there are, IIRC, only two incidents, where ships were hit at a range of over 20 km, once by HMS Warspite, the other by Gneisenau.
I'm fairly sure Italian and Japanese heavy cruisers accomplished similar feats, of hitting opponents at c.20K metres.

The 38 cm SK C/34 of Bismarck could fire up to 3 800 kg (AP) shells per minute. [SNIP
The British 15" Mk. I could fire a 871 kg shell (AP) up to twice a minute [SNIP]
I've already explained that things do not work that way. Both sides would be shooting three times every two minutes.

Also, there was no real arms race, that was more a British admiralty propaganda to get more toys, err, ships. [SNIP]
the real treasure is not the ship, but the plans and the knowledge.
2xYes
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Yes, please, build three or four battleships for every one of ours.
Maybe five? Even better!
Pretty please?
Meanwhile we pour money into more howitzers and machineguns for the army as that is what really matters ... :)
Or, to keep things nautical, one hundred U-Boots a year for three years ... and acustic homing torpedos ...
All true.

But Germany still have main problem - stupid generals.They have one plan to end war quickly - good one - but they fucked it up becouse Russians send 2 armies to East Prussia,which they have no chance to take,and even if they have,there is nothing in East Prussia worh fighting anyway.
Which means,that after their good plan failed becouse of their own stupidity,they must lost.And of course blame anybody but prussian idiots who failed.

French generals were stupid,too,and almost win war for germany with elan and red pants - but they eventually learned.
Which mean,that even with superweapons germans could still lost,or at least not win.Which,as long as Russia remain normal state,mean lost next war.
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
England would attack anybody who could dominate Europe - and they always were too late.First they still attacked Spain when real hegemon was France,then they keep trying attacking France when real danger become Prussia.
Considering their lack of awareness,they probably still keep see Germany as main enemy even when Russia become world superpower.
In 1912 nothing short of abadonning fleet by Germany would change their mind.And if Germany do not attack Belgium,they would find a pretext to attack them anyway.
Forcing the UK to declare war on Germany without the Belgian pretext is a propaganda move aimed at America. If the US embargoes arms sales to all of the belligerents Britain and France have to pull a lot of men off the front to make guns they OTL bought from America. Russia is just stuffed. They don't have the infrastructure. The Belgians won't be on the lines or selling guns to the Entente either because they aren't protected from the consequences of breaking their neutrality by an ocean.

Combined with the Americans not coming to replace the Russians, Entente morale may collapse in 1918. With clever propaganda against the British blockade with physical materials like photographic plates smuggled to America by U-boat the Entente may feel under pressure to settle before America joins on the German side by that point.
 

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