Battletech BattleTech discussion thread: May the light of Hanse Davion guide us

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
I agree, clanners are visual people, you could get away with cloning the specs and changing the visuals, but not the other way around. What's next, renamed Wolverine II?

I'd imagine that OOU, the reason for that was practicality. The Osteon's signature design elements require a steep investment in tonnage and critical spaces, an investment no variant of the Aries can actually afford to pay. Most of them are already trading away heat sinks for more weapons and ammo, they really can't afford.

Speak of Aries, I decided to buy a few. Namely the M, L, and H. Might have gotten a prime, but they're out of stock.

The M is basically a super-Osteon, carrying the same weapon configuration but upgrading to iATM 12s rather than 9s, plus twin pulse lasers and a targetting computer. I'm not totally sold on the base config, and not just because it's got a ton of ATM ammo in the head (which is, granted, still bad, but you can burn through that in a few rounds of fire so it should be safe). It only mounts 15 DHS, which is not enough to use the missiles and lasers simultaneously. And given the sheer damage that can come from peppering someone with the long ranged ATM missiles and closing in, punching some holes in the damaged armor with the lasers and then following up with HE(or maybe worse, improved Inferno)....that sound like a big deal to me. I'm thinking of ripping out the computer and downgrading to ER lasers, and using the savings for more sinks and C3i.

The L, on the other hand, is something I've been trying to get working for a while, a quad ER large laser build. One of the first mechs I bought was a mad cat mkII 4, but I've never been happy with it, or rather with its inability to make use of its full firepower without serious heat issues. The Aries L still falls short of that, since it's twin HAGs take up too much tonnage to fit enough sinks for the lasers. However, it comes close. And by stripped out the mechs supercharger and the 5th ER laser it carries, it frees up enough space for both C3i and a radical heat sink, which will allow for at least intermittent alpha strikes.

And then there's the H, which is simply one of meanest designs I've seen. A mech with a headcapper typical commands a great deal of fear and respect, though not as much as the increasing number of models that mount two such weapons. The handful that mount more than that have become legendary for doing so, particularly those that use (some might say "abuse") clan tech in order to do so while dodging the more severe tradeoffs that comparable IS mechs have to make.

The Aries H mounts 6, and enough heat sinks to fire 5 of them on any given turn with only mild heat build up, or 4 of them indefinitely. I think it's one of the few cases where cramming C3i into it has made the mech worse, since it required dropping heat sinks in order to free up the weight, cuts that meant it can't fire more than 4 guns without significant heat issues. In either case it's a very mean design, essentially a clan tech devistator. It does have at least one weak point, namely the fact that all four of the guns in the side torsos explode when damaged, and the design lacks the CASE II which would mitigate the worst of the damage, a set of design flaws that I suspect are intentional one the part of the design team.


Speaking of Aries (both the mech and the company), they apparently had a issue with their original supplier destroying the master molds of the Aries mech and had to change manufacturers, so there will likely be a delay in restocking the store. Also, the order confirmation email I received mentioned that they have 5 new custom mechs in production that will be unveiled in the next few weeks. Vague on details, aside from that there's one from each weight class, save heavy which gets two.
 
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Culsu

Agent of the Central Plasma
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Like the great houses, it will be predatory help. The Taurian colonization fleet can be used to quickly evacuate planets that will no longer be inhabitable, including factories.

The SLDF will probably be put through twice as much of a meat grinder even if they manage to pull out of a conflict with the Concordat, the great houses would absolutely refuse to contribute their fleets into that mess.
Sorry for the late reply. See, the question is: would the Concordat be part of the plot? The way I understand it, your TC is still independant since it never lost space superiority. If it's not a territorial state, then it has no business being part of the Amaris Civil War other than "maliciously grinning from the sidelines while lining its pockets from war profits". That is, unless it actively wants to undermine the IS and side with Amaris.

Regarding the toll on the SLDF and the Hegemony, that all depends on the minutae of the plot, that is, how far does the coup succeed?
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
the question is: would the Concordat be part of the plot?
Ameris is a dick and needs to bloody the SLDF for his coup to work. The Concordat would get involved in the prologue, especially if they don't want to.

Right now I'm thinking of going back a bit as showing the Star leagues developments in response to the Concordat for my next chapter.
 

Battlegrinder

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So, I'm looking for some mech design advice. I want to get an Ares of some variety, but am having trouble picking one. Anyone have suggestions for which one, or a custom configuration (ideally one you make by mix and matching parts of the Canon configs)? The only thing I know for sure is I'll be installing C3i.

Right now, I have 3 ideas:
1. Standard Zeus.
2. Zeus right arm paired with the left arm of either the hera or the aphrodite.
3. The hera's right arm and the aphrodite's left arm. Not sure what to call that config, ideas right now are "giant enemy crab", "giantest enemy crab", or "OTP".
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
I don't think you can just swap arms as they have different payload weight in different configurations. If you take Zeus configuration and empty the left arm you get 18 tons and 10 crits to use, you can also delete the targeting computer, but can't really get the combo working, doing the other way around might be doable though.
 

Battlegrinder

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Main issue with keeping the streaks and dumping the PPCs is that even with C3i, it's going to be less than easy to get a mech this slow into range. I've also got loads of SRM mechs, so I don't really need more of those on the field.
 

Battlegrinder

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So, I'm still working on an ares config I like (it turns out the missile pods are not part of the arm assembly, so I can mix and match there as well....which as mad fine tuning a final build thst much harder), but I had another question come up in the process. How do you calculate BV if you have multiple pilots with varying skills?
 

Battlegrinder

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Ok, so I've got an idea for a config. 2 ERPPCs, two LRM 20s, plus the standard array of secondary weapons for the ares (aside from the small lasers, which I swapped for mirco pulse lasers). Decided to only carry one ton of extra ammo for the LRM5s and SRM 2s, which I'll take as inferno and mag pulse ammo to deal with infantry and try to compensate for the Ares being so easy to hit by handing out targetting penalties to enemies.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
I am rather underwhelmed by it, all the fixed equipment really crimps the choices, best I could think so far was a version with Long Tom Cannon and and HAG/20
 

Battlegrinder

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I'm not sure if it's the fixed equipment vs the armor and increased weight of the chassis. Even if you strip out all of the weapons, fixed and otherwise (which I don't generally do, if a model has a weapon I want the unit to have a weapon in the spot on its sheet) it only has 55.5 tons to work with. That's good, but a tomahawk II beats that by .5 tons, and that mech is 35 tons lighter.

The fixed equipment doesn't help, sure, but there's only about 10 tons of it, and maybr half that if you swap it out for clan grade gear.
 

Battlegrinder

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So, I finally finished painting the trio of Aries mechs I ordered, figured I'd write up a review of the models.


The casting on the main torso was good, which is great because it's the most visible, eye-catching part. However, the legs were a bit shaky with a very ackward connection between the model's sprue and the leg itself which needed a lot of sanding and filling, and there were some unslightly mold lines on both the legs and the arms. The worst part were the main guns, which had a big chunk of flash between them on the sprue that was about 3 or so mm thick, which was very, very difficult to work with and were very hard to sand down without losing detail on the guns themselves. It's from the worst cast model I've ever bought, but it's well below the best.

The model themselves are acceptably detailed, however at a few spots they're a bit grainy. I suspect this is because the orginal master model was 3D printed and then the mold was cast around it, instead of being sculpted, and that texture is a leftover from that. The guns fit into the torso very well, which I was worried about because it would be really easy for casting issues or dodgy design could have botched that, but they fit in level and parallel. The arms are a bit worse, they attach via ball and socket joints, and it doesn't quite perfectly. That might be intentional to give the arms a bit of an extra range of motion, but the same cannot be said about the legs, which do not smoothly fit into the hips and needed a lot of sanding to fit.

However, there is one design element that's executed amazingly well, which is the weapons themselves. Unlike a lot of canon mech designs (even ones from the same factory on the same planet), the weapons on all the aries variants remain consistent between models. A large laser on one variant looks the same as a large laser on another, a missile rack in one spot looks the same as another missile rack in another spot, etc. It's a fantastic design element and I can't praise them enough for it.

Overally, I'd give it a C+, though I reserve final judgement until I get my last aeries from the new supplier the company is working with, which might address some of these issues.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
So, curious as to what people think of this. I needed a LAM design for my Blood Spirit fic and wanted to take it in a different direction than I've seen in any of the canon models, and this popped out. It suits the normal four tenants of Blood Spirit design though it wasn't originally built by them. I was pleased at how well I kept the price down given how notoriously cheap Blood Spirits are, at six million it's mid-range to cheap for a non-LAM mech of it's tonnage.

It's essentially an Artillery Mech designed to be able to travel anywhere, pop up unexpectedly, and either set all the enemy's stuff on fire or hit them with Arrow artillery from a distance, then run away.

This is, of course, exactly as Kerensky envisioned 'mech combat should be, though only Blood Spirit understands that these days. Thank goodness they still remember how to adhere to tradition.

Rainbird (Bloodrain) BRN-1XB

Mass: 50 tons
Chassis: Standard LAM
Power Plant: 200 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
2 ER Medium Laser
1 Small Pulse Laser
2 ER Small Laser
1 Flamer
Manufacturer: Clan Blood Spirit
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: York Y-3 COM
Targeting & Tracking System: BloodShot Munitions E.Y.E.
Introduction Year: 3004
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 6,322,750 C-bills

Code:
Type: Rainbird (Bloodrain)
Technology Base: Mixed (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: 1,187

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    5
LAM Conversion Equipment                            5.0
Engine                        200 Fusion            8.5
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6
    Jumping MP: 4
    AirMech Cruising MP: 12
    AirMech Flanking MP: 18
    Safe Thrust: 4
    Max Thrust: 6
Double Heat Sink              10 [20]                 0
Gyro                                                  2
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor                  160                    10

                          Internal   Armor  
                          Structure  Value  
     Head                    3         9    
     Center Torso            16        24   
     Center Torso (rear)               7    
     R/L Torso               12        18   
     R/L Torso (rear)                  5    
     R/L Arm                 8         15   
     R/L Leg                 12        22   


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo              Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage   
Jump Jet                 LL        1        -       0.5  
Flamer                   CT        1        3       0.5  
Small Pulse Laser        RT        1        2       1.0  
BattleMech Turret        RT        1        -       0.0  
5 Bomb Bays              RT        5        -       5.0  
Jump Jet                 RT        1        -       0.5  
ER Medium Laser          RT        1        5       1.0  
Double Heat Sink         LA        2        -       1.0  
2 ER Small Lasers        LT        2        2       1.0  
BattleMech Turret        LT        1        -       0.0  
5 Bomb Bays              LT        5        -       5.0  
Jump Jet                 LT        1        -       0.5  
ER Medium Laser          LT        1        5       1.0  
Jump Jet                 RL        1        -       0.5  
Double Heat Sink         RA        2        -       1.0

Quirks: Low Profile, Compact 'Mech, Cooling System Flaws
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
It's essentially an Artillery Mech designed to be able to travel anywhere, pop up unexpectedly, and either set all the enemy's stuff on fire or hit them with Arrow artillery from a distance, then run away.

This is, of course, exactly as Kerensky envisioned 'mech combat should be, though only Blood Spirit understands that these days. Thank goodness they still remember how to adhere to tradition.
R.A.W. LAMs need to use an internal bomb bay to be able to carry bomb munitions.
 

UltimatePaladin

Well-known member
So, curious as to what people think of this. I needed a LAM design for my Blood Spirit fic and wanted to take it in a different direction than I've seen in any of the canon models, and this popped out. It suits the normal four tenants of Blood Spirit design though it wasn't originally built by them. I was pleased at how well I kept the price down given how notoriously cheap Blood Spirits are, at six million it's mid-range to cheap for a non-LAM mech of it's tonnage.

It's essentially an Artillery Mech designed to be able to travel anywhere, pop up unexpectedly, and either set all the enemy's stuff on fire or hit them with Arrow artillery from a distance, then run away.

This is, of course, exactly as Kerensky envisioned 'mech combat should be, though only Blood Spirit understands that these days. Thank goodness they still remember how to adhere to tradition.

Rainbird (Bloodrain) BRN-1XB

Mass: 50 tons
Chassis: Standard LAM
Power Plant: 200 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
2 ER Medium Laser
1 Small Pulse Laser
2 ER Small Laser
1 Flamer
Manufacturer: Clan Blood Spirit
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: York Y-3 COM
Targeting & Tracking System: BloodShot Munitions E.Y.E.
Introduction Year: 3004
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-F-F
Cost: 6,322,750 C-bills

Code:
Type: Rainbird (Bloodrain)
Technology Base: Mixed (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: 1,187

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    5
LAM Conversion Equipment                            5.0
Engine                        200 Fusion            8.5
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6
    Jumping MP: 4
    AirMech Cruising MP: 12
    AirMech Flanking MP: 18
    Safe Thrust: 4
    Max Thrust: 6
Double Heat Sink              10 [20]                 0
Gyro                                                  2
Cockpit                                               3
Armor Factor                  160                    10

                          Internal   Armor 
                          Structure  Value 
     Head                    3         9   
     Center Torso            16        24  
     Center Torso (rear)               7   
     R/L Torso               12        18  
     R/L Torso (rear)                  5   
     R/L Arm                 8         15  
     R/L Leg                 12        22  


Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand

Weapons
and Ammo              Location  Critical   Heat    Tonnage  
Jump Jet                 LL        1        -       0.5 
Flamer                   CT        1        3       0.5 
Small Pulse Laser        RT        1        2       1.0 
BattleMech Turret        RT        1        -       0.0 
5 Bomb Bays              RT        5        -       5.0 
Jump Jet                 RT        1        -       0.5 
ER Medium Laser          RT        1        5       1.0 
Double Heat Sink         LA        2        -       1.0 
2 ER Small Lasers        LT        2        2       1.0 
BattleMech Turret        LT        1        -       0.0 
5 Bomb Bays              LT        5        -       5.0 
Jump Jet                 LT        1        -       0.5 
ER Medium Laser          LT        1        5       1.0 
Jump Jet                 RL        1        -       0.5 
Double Heat Sink         RA        2        -       1.0

Quirks: Low Profile, Compact 'Mech, Cooling System Flaws
I also see you incorporated BattleMech Turrets into the side torsos? Interesting, what weapons are those attached to?

Otherwise, Bomb Bays also let it carry bombs (or rocket pods, but I think that the Blood Spirits would draw the line there,) as well, which gives it a degree of versatility without the full range of costs associated with an OmniMech.

Doctrine-wise, though... do the Blood Spirits consider LAMs to be Aerospace Fighters or 'Mechs when it comes to formations? Basically, two to a Point or one to a Point?
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I also see you incorporated BattleMech Turrets into the side torsos? Interesting, what weapons are those attached to?

Otherwise, Bomb Bays also let it carry bombs (or rocket pods, but I think that the Blood Spirits would draw the line there,) as well, which gives it a degree of versatility without the full range of costs associated with an OmniMech.

Doctrine-wise, though... do the Blood Spirits consider LAMs to be Aerospace Fighters or 'Mechs when it comes to formations? Basically, two to a Point or one to a Point?
Let me note this is specifically for the Blood Spirit SI I'm writing (first three chapters are in the Plot Bunny Thread) so actual Blood Spirit doctrine won't apply (I suspect the canon Blood Spirits would Recoil In Horror from a LAM), a major recurring joke is that the Blood Spirits in-story couch everything in terms of how it's tradition and Kerensky would obviously approve while doing stuff that he literally would commit genocide against them for (This part is canon, for instance he specifically and personally told the Blood Spirits to knock off that ilChi diplomacy stuff but they went ahead and re-instated the program later, similarly they train their non-combat castes to fight and will promote people from lower castes to warrior castes which similarly got the Wolverines Annihilated).

As far as Doctrine the Blood Spirits are going to recognize that these LAMs are no match for an Aerospace fighter or 'mech in combat and call them two to a point, helped by the fact that these LAMs have the Compact 'Mech quirk (They have a fourth mode, "fold up into a small box for storage" mode) so you can slap two in every 'mech bay. A standard Lion can carry an Aerospace Binary of them which improves flexibility. LAMs, however, won't be regarded as wonder weapons so much as specific niche weapons.

The Turrets allow it to make up for it's anemic speed by having firing arcs that are defined as "where ever the enemy is" so they don't have to actually waste fuel turning in dogfights nor mount rear-facing weapons, they just rotate the turrets and unload the entire arsenal into anybody who thinks getting in a Bloodrain's six is a good idea. The Right Torso turret carries an ER Medium Laser and Small Pulse Laser. The Left Torso turret carries an ER Medium Laser and two ER Small Lasers. The last weapon is the center-torso flamer.
 

UltimatePaladin

Well-known member
Speaking of LAMs...

Would there be any merit to trying to build an independent AirMech? As in a Mech permanently stuck in that mode?

On one hand, it would have slow speed when walking or running on the ground, and be unable to independently enter or leave atmosphere.

On the other, not needing to convert from mode to mode may open up more weight saving technology (I believe the reason given was that the conversion gear interferes with such technology.) Pilots would only need to learn how to use one machine (versus 3,) and would still be able to put out impressive speeds with AirMech Cruise/Flank. Thoughts?
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Speaking of LAMs...

Would there be any merit to trying to build an independent AirMech? As in a Mech permanently stuck in that mode?

On one hand, it would have slow speed when walking or running on the ground, and be unable to independently enter or leave atmosphere.

On the other, not needing to convert from mode to mode may open up more weight saving technology (I believe the reason given was that the conversion gear interferes with such technology.) Pilots would only need to learn how to use one machine (versus 3,) and would still be able to put out impressive speeds with AirMech Cruise/Flank. Thoughts?
Eh, a pure AirMech would be only so-so. The devs have heavily nerfed Airmech mode so it's not as overwhelming as before, being as it has stiff penalties to hit and also can't torso twist so it has to waste a decent chunk of it's fast movement turning around if it wants to shoot anything.

As a full 'mech design, eh, you can practically do it with a partial wing and improved jumpjets. You can pull out a 5/8 'mech at 50 tons with a 10-hex jump and have 35 tons left for armor and weapons before adding space-saving things like endo-steel or an XLFE. Probably better than a pure AirMech design would be anyway.

The other issue is that if you have an AirMech you basically have no reason to every use the legs, so you can remove them at which point you have a WiGE vehicle with arms, basically it kinda ruins the paradigm and makes it much easier to see that yes, the rules just deliberately hose vehicles for no reason. This is the same reason I rather dislike QuadVees, you have a tank that never gets motive hits like normal tanks, it's turret has zero weight compared to the massive weight a tank expends, and it has six hit locations for it's body, so it kind of ruins the narrative of 'mechs being better. Why not just make a tank out of a QuadVee torso and take out the legs and transformation gear?
 

gral

Well-known member
The other issue is that if you have an AirMech you basically have no reason to every use the legs, so you can remove them at which point you have a WiGE vehicle with arms, basically it kinda ruins the paradigm and makes it much easier to see that yes, the rules just deliberately hose vehicles for no reason. This is the same reason I rather dislike QuadVees, you have a tank that never gets motive hits like normal tanks, it's turret has zero weight compared to the massive weight a tank expends, and it has six hit locations for it's body, so it kind of ruins the narrative of 'mechs being better. Why not just make a tank out of a QuadVee torso and take out the legs and transformation gear?

I think the Battletech mech/vehicle building system is all kinds of fucked up, but I don't know how to fix it without scrapping the game together with it.
 

UltimatePaladin

Well-known member
I think the Battletech mech/vehicle building system is all kinds of fucked up, but I don't know how to fix it without scrapping the game together with it.
One time I ended up running an experiment in regards to the heat-management aspect of Vehicles.

Basically, I decided to see what would happen to a vehicle design if it only required as many heat sinks as the minimum required to fire the highest heat-generating weapon. A compromise between "Vehicles need more shielded reactors due to crew proximity*," and common sense. I decided to use the Schrek PPC.

What I ended up was that the Schrek could fire a PPC [10 heat] a turn... or...
  • 1 Large Laser [8 heat]
  • 3 Medium Lasers [9 heat]
  • 3 Flamers [9 heat]
  • 10 Small Lasers [10 heat]
(or some combination of the above if heat allows)

Ended up trading sustained long-ranged firepower for a lot more versatility. All those combined equaled to 16 tons (assuming they are not on the turret,) which, coupled with the above premise, meant that I still had 19.5 tons leftover for other things.

I decided to put the remaining weight into armor: Adding 13 tons of armor maxed it out, at 320 armor points. Leaving me still with 6.5 tons to allocate. However, I decided that this was getting silly and decided to stop there. So yes, vehicles would be OP if you allow for a modicum of heat management.

Of course, there are more issues with vehicle construction than that. I'd argue that if you were to allow for heat management as I ran through above, then ballistic and missile weapons would need to worry about heat management too for vehicles (when they don't need heat sinks in the rules.)

In addition, vehicles also get freebies in terms of space - slots are far more forgiving for vehicles than they are for BattleMechs, and they also don't have to pay space costs for heat sinks or ammo.

I'm still a novice at tabletop rules and meta. But it looks like trying to rationalize everything (with the points above) would end up breaking a vast majority of the designs already in play. Which, of course, only makes me more curious as to how things would turn out with a more rationalized/standardized ruleset (using quadvees as a base?)

*IIRC, this is the reasoning why vehicles must need as much heat sinks as they do maximum heat generated by weapons fire.

EDIT: Flubbed my calculations. Forgot about 1 small laser, meaning I have 6.5 tons left instead of 7.
 
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