Bad Worldbuilding of Westeros

[Aldarion]

Worldbuilding problems – Westeros

POPULATION DENSITY Technology depends a lot on population density. Without enough people, there will not be enough concentration of resources for certain societal and thus technological development…

fantasyview.wordpress.com

POPULATION DENSITY

Technology depends a lot on population density. Without enough people, there will not be enough concentration of resources for certain societal and thus technological developments. And in Westeros, that is a problem.

Seven Kingdoms have 40 million people at maybe 3 600 000 square miles. If North is removed, that is some 1,2 million square miles and 4 million people, remaining are 36 million people and 2,4 million square miles, for 15 people per square mile. England in 1500 had population of 3 million at 50 345 square miles, for 60 people per square mile. Hungary in 1500 had population density of 30 people per square mile – and it was one of the countries which imported plate armour from abroad. In fact, Croatian nobles imported it from Italy and Austria, while Hungarian nobles imported from Austria and Germany. Ottoman Empire, similar in density to Hungary, did not have either feudalism or plate armour to begin with. Even at smaller size of 3 000 000 square miles, Seven Kingdoms without North still have population density of 18 people per square mile, which is similar to medieval Byzantine Empire – which had been facing constant plagues, invasions and territorial losses.

What does this mean for Westeros? It means that Martin's military and technological level is not appropriate. Nobody should be marching around laid in full plate, organized in feudal banderies. When it comes to technology and societal organization, Westeros is in fact an early Modern society, yet its population density is closer to Dark Ages.

Fact that plate armour exists means that Westeros is a relatively high-technology society. This means cities and high urbanization, which simply does not fit with the Dark Age population densities of Westeros. Yet urban population is unlikely to be above 3 million, which is below 10% (7,5% actually). This urbanization level is below 10th century Byzantine Empire, which was between 10% and 15%. Yet King's Landing may have population of around 500 000, which is only achievable with either a) extremely high population density or b) extremely high political centralization. This can be addressed by assuming that most castles mentioned in the books in fact have adjacent towns.

If Westeros is similar to England of 1500, then total population should be 144 million people in the south, or 72 million if we take Hungary (which is too low). North should then have 16 million people (or 8 million for Hungary estimate), for total Westeros population of either 160 million or 80 million. This means that standing, professional forces of Westeros should be at least 800 000 for whole of Westeros, possibly much more. Or else Martin should be writing about fryd militia fighting against Vikings, not about Wars of the Roses. For comparison, populaton of Europe was 25 million in 800, 56 million in 1 000 and 78 million in 1300.

Read More

 

[DarthOne]

@Aldarion how would you feel about being recruited for helping me world build a setting I’m creating? It seems like it would be right up you alley and I could certainly use the help.

 

[Aldarion]

@Aldarion how would you feel about being recruited for helping me world build a setting I’m creating? It seems like it would be right up you alley and I could certainly use the help.

Sounds nice.

 

[DarthOne]

Sounds nice.

Excellent. I will set up a PM so I don’t clutter up the thread further.

 

[ATP]

@Aldarion how would you feel about being recruited for helping me world build a setting I’m creating? It seems like it would be right up you alley and I could certainly use the help.

He is right man for such task.

Sounds nice.

Help him,it should be good.
I have no good ideas,but read some interesting books,so maybe i could help.
But - do not except anything great from me.

 

[evilchumlee]

I ask a question because I genuinely don't know, do the land area/people per square mile actually matter? Would large stretches of Westeros having essentially zero population affect that at all?

What of the existence of a fallen more advanced society? Could not at least some of that tech base been preserved?

What of Essos? The link posted suggest that we don't have the information to conclude the population of Essos, and we know that Westeros routinely trades with them to the point that their central bank is located there. Could Essos not support the population for the technology, and Westeros benefit that way?

I'm assuming i'm incorrect. I just want to know why

 

[Aldarion]

I ask a question because I genuinely don't know, do the land area/people per square mile actually matter? Would large stretches of Westeros having essentially zero population affect that at all?

As usual: it depends. Now, you could have situation similar to Arnor in Lord of the Rings where (in "modern day") you have few population centres with massive swathes of uninhabited land in between.

Thing is, that is not what we actually see. In such a situation, settlement - including settlements (as in, towns and cities) - would tend to concentrate in certain areas. Yet going by map and descriptions, Westeros seems to be settled rather equally.

What of the existence of a fallen more advanced society? Could not at least some of that tech base been preserved?

Maybe? But issue here isn't so much existence of certain technologies as their maintenance and utilization.

Existence of super-advanced ancients would do nothing to solve that particular issue.

What of Essos? The link posted suggest that we don't have the information to conclude the population of Essos, and we know that Westeros routinely trades with them to the point that their central bank is located there. Could Essos not support the population for the technology, and Westeros benefit that way?

Not really. Not if you want it to remain a medieval world.

At best, you would get the Amerindians situation, where Westeros would have certain pieces of advanced technology - but society itself would remain at low developmental level. Basically, you would have society akin to Wildlings from beyond the Wall, but using plate armor.

That is not what we actually see however.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

Not really. Not if you want it to remain a medieval world.

It should be renaissance, Once you have plate armour it's no longer the middle ages. I just wish George had introduced the sort of gunpowder weapons that would have existed in the early 1400's along with this glorious invention.

 

[Aldarion]

It should be renaissance, Once you have plate armour it's no longer the middle ages. I just wish George had introduced the sort of gunpowder weapons that would have existed in the early 1400's along with this glorious invention.

Blame Tolkien and movies.

Tolkien didn't want to introduce mass use of gunpowder weapons because gunpowder represents industrialization, which in turn leads to dehumanization of everything.

Fantasy movies, especially modern versions, found it easier to produce plate armor for numerous extras.

Thus... plate and no gunpowder.

Though to be fair, there is no law saying that gunpowder weapons and plate armor have to be contemporary.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

Blame Tolkien and movies.

Tolkien didn't want to introduce mass use of gunpowder weapons because gunpowder represents industrialization, which in turn leads to dehumanization of everything.

Fantasy movies, especially modern versions, found it easier to produce plate armor for numerous extras.

Thus... plate and no gunpowder.

Though to be fair, there is no law saying that gunpowder weapons and plate armor have to be contemporary.

How is what GRRM does Tolkiens fault? No one in Lotr had plate armor they all exclusive wore mail. Anyways Westeros is suppose to be a big ass war of the roses expy so have the same sort of gunpowder weapons they would have used in the setting to match the rest of their technology. Most fantasy until more recently did show the sort of more primitive gunpowder weapons where it would have been generally correct to do so.

 

[Captain X]

No one in Lotr had plate armor they all exclusive wore mail.

In the movies they did. The opening scene shows both humans and elves with it, King Theodin has a set, and the soldiers of Gondor also had it.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

In the movies they did. The opening scene shows both humans and elves with it, King Theodin has a set, and the soldiers of Gondor also had it.

Yeah the movies took a lot of liberties, I don't see much point in even acknowledging them. Especially when people are talking about what Tolkien did directly.

 

[Aldarion]

How is what GRRM does Tolkiens fault? No one in Lotr had plate armor they all exclusive wore mail. Anyways Westeros is suppose to be a big ass war of the roses expy so have the same sort of gunpowder weapons they would have used in the setting to match the rest of their technology. Most fantasy until more recently did show the sort of more primitive gunpowder weapons where it would have been generally correct to do so.

Because Tolkien literally created modern fantasy, and GRRM, for all his big talk about "subverting the tropes" is in fact very dedicated to playing said tropes straight. But as I clearly stated, Tolkien's part was "no gunpowder", not "plate armor everywhere".

Plate armor was fault of the movies. This:

Fantasy movies, especially modern versions, found it easier to produce plate armor for numerous extras.

When you read about production of Lord of the Rings, people literally wore out their fingerprints and even bled fingers due to how many rings had to be made for all that mail. And that was after most of the armor in the movies was changed to plate.

By contrast, plates for plate armor can simply be stamped out by machines from cheap plastic and spray painted. A full suit of (plastic) plate can probably be produced in less time and for less effort than a single mail glove.

But fantasy movies - especially Lord of the Rings but not exclusively - had significant impact on new generations of fantasy authors. Hence plate everywhere, plus it also looks cleaner.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

When you read about production of Lord of the Rings, people literally wore out their fingerprints and even bled fingers due to how many rings had to be made for all that mail. And that was after most of the armor in the movies was changed to plate.

Kingdom of Heaven pulled it off, That movie had some of the GOAT costumes.

 

[Aldarion]

Kingdom of Heaven pulled it off, That movie had some of the GOAT costumes.

Agreed. I really liked seeing mail as primary armor in a movie.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

Agreed. I really liked seeing mail as primary armor in a movie.

The only thing the movie got wrong was the coif's, It's kind of annoying since the movie got everything else so damn right.

 

[Simonbob]

Honestly, the thing that got me was 8 thousand year old families, and lordships.

Sure, with magic, I can see it. Well, kinda, sorta. Still nuts, but unequal magic, I can deal. But..... Westeros pretty much don't have that kinda magic, so it's just not going to happen. Worse, the moment canon begins, said impossible noble familys start vanishing.


Somehow, that pisses me off more than the complete lack of understanding why honor would be at least somewhat respected.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Kingdom of Heaven pulled it off, That movie had some of the GOAT costumes.

WETA Workshop did the chain mail for both movies, and had improved its production techniques substantially which allowed for much larger amounts to be made. In particular, they gave up on the economical technique of cutting PVC rings from appropriately sized pipe and went to having a high speed PVC injection molding rig to make the rings directly.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Kingdom of Heaven pulled it off, That movie had some of the GOAT costumes.

Say what you will about that film, but Scot was in his element with the costume design of the 12th century. He really did get the importance of pageantry and banners to such armies, and the scene where Jerusalem’s forces arrive at Kerak is utterly breathtaking.

But more to the point, God would it not be lovely to see more chain mail in fantasy. Although, quick question for the medievalists on here, what sort of armour would a standard levee or man at arms wear at the time? As I understand it, it was a sort of gambeson?

 

[ShadowArxxy]

But more to the point, God would it not be lovely to see more chain mail in fantasy. Although, quick question for the medievalists on here, what sort of armour would a standard levee or man at arms wear at the time? As I understand it, it was a sort of gambeson?

Extremely variable as men at arms typically had to bring their own gear, but typically a gambeson, mail shirt, and a basic helmet of some form.