ATL where Mongolia adopts Nestorianism

[VictortheMonarch]

AS the title says, instead of continuing with Tengrism (a rather awesome god tbf) the Mongols instead convert to Nestorianism. Nestorian Christianity had a decent hold over Mongolia, such as the Kerait clan who's women were often married to such esteemed individuals such as Hulagu Khan of the Ilkhanate. Nestorianism is often referred to as Syriac Christianity or the Syriac Orthodox Church (not to be confused with the Syriac Catholic Church). For whatever reason Nestorianism would fade following the collapse of the Mongol Empire.

The question is, what would happen if the Mongols were Nestorian? I highly doubt muslims would take well to being ruled by christians (as we've found out, it never works out well, without viciously massacring them) what would a map of religion look like? what would history look like?

 

[stevep]

AS the title says, instead of continuing with Tengrism (a rather awesome god tbf) the Mongols instead convert to Nestorianism. Nestorian Christianity had a decent hold over Mongolia, such as the Kerait clan who's women were often married to such esteemed individuals such as Hulagu Khan of the Ilkhanate. Nestorianism is often referred to as Syriac Christianity or the Syriac Orthodox Church (not to be confused with the Syriac Catholic Church). For whatever reason Nestorianism would fade following the collapse of the Mongol Empire.

The question is, what would happen if the Mongols were Nestorian? I highly doubt muslims would take well to being ruled by christians (as we've found out, it never works out well, without viciously massacring them) what would a map of religion look like? what would history look like?

Its something I've considered as there were possibilities of such a conversion happening under Genghis himself IIRC. [Think that early in his career when he was still a relatively minor warlord he tried to gain a marriage alliance with one of the large Mongol tribes that was ruled by a Nestorian Khan but it fell through because the Khan wanted him to convert to Nestorianism] As you say there were latter opportunities with a number of Nestorian Christians being significant figures in the early Mongol leadership.

I think a lot would depend on their attitude to other faiths and sects. As long as they didn't get too dogmatic - at least for a century or so - that could greatly boost their ability to work with assorted other cultures. [Which also opens up what happens if a Kublai Khan is Nestorian and still conquers China?]

Muslims won't like being under foreign rule but the Mongols are will and in many cases would be capable of doing some vicious massacres which would suppress open revolt for a while. Plus if they introduced the same sort of system the Muslims had, with different faiths or sects being allowed to worship openly but paying an additional tax and being denied the right to carry weapons - as well as access to the higher levels of government you might see a gradual conversion of many pf their subjects to their rulers faith. Which would set up some interesting possibilities. In this scenario the Nestorian church could - at least ignoring the effects of discovery of the Americas - become the richest and most populous Christian church of all.

 

[History Learner]

AS the title says, instead of continuing with Tengrism (a rather awesome god tbf) the Mongols instead convert to Nestorianism. Nestorian Christianity had a decent hold over Mongolia, such as the Kerait clan who's women were often married to such esteemed individuals such as Hulagu Khan of the Ilkhanate. Nestorianism is often referred to as Syriac Christianity or the Syriac Orthodox Church (not to be confused with the Syriac Catholic Church). For whatever reason Nestorianism would fade following the collapse of the Mongol Empire.

The question is, what would happen if the Mongols were Nestorian? I highly doubt muslims would take well to being ruled by christians (as we've found out, it never works out well, without viciously massacring them) what would a map of religion look like? what would history look like?

The Russian Steppe and Central Asia goes Christian, likely ultimately converting formally into Orthodox due to realpolitik vis-a-vis the Rus. Ties are made with the Crusader States, helping them to stabilize and maybe expand albeit while paying homage to their new Mongol overlords. Egypt, which is still majority Coptic here, might be taken and the Mongol administration there will in the long term become Coptic most likely. There's no Timur and with centuries of Mongol patronage, the Nestorian and other native Christian communities in places like Mesopotamia and Persia will likely thrive and grow; Persia might go Christian.

 

[WolfBear]

The Russian Steppe and Central Asia goes Christian, likely ultimately converting formally into Orthodox due to realpolitik vis-a-vis the Rus. Ties are made with the Crusader States, helping them to stabilize and maybe expand albeit while paying homage to their new Mongol overlords. Egypt, which is still majority Coptic here, might be taken and the Mongol administration there will in the long term become Coptic most likely. There's no Timur and with centuries of Mongol patronage, the Nestorian and other native Christian communities in places like Mesopotamia and Persia will likely thrive and grow; Persia might go Christian.

Imagine an eventual Christian fundamentalist "Taliban" coming to power in Afghanistan in this TL!

 

[VictortheMonarch]

Imagine an eventual Christian fundamentalist "Taliban" coming to power in Afghanistan in this TL!

rather unlikely. the Taliban is an Islamic Military Organization, Christian Military Organizations are generally forbidden now.

 

[stevep]

rather unlikely. the Taliban is an Islamic Military Organization, Christian Military Organizations are generally forbidden now.

They are now but in TTL that could be a considerably different issue.

 

[WolfBear]

rather unlikely. the Taliban is an Islamic Military Organization, Christian Military Organizations are generally forbidden now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

 

[VictortheMonarch]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

thats an exception that generally is looked down upon. Besides that it only has like what? 100 members?

 

[Ricardolindo]

The Russian Steppe and Central Asia goes Christian, likely ultimately converting formally into Orthodox due to realpolitik vis-a-vis the Rus. Ties are made with the Crusader States, helping them to stabilize and maybe expand albeit while paying homage to their new Mongol overlords. Egypt, which is still majority Coptic here, might be taken and the Mongol administration there will in the long term become Coptic most likely. There's no Timur and with centuries of Mongol patronage, the Nestorian and other native Christian communities in places like Mesopotamia and Persia will likely thrive and grow; Persia might go Christian.

I don't think Egypt was still Coptic majority at the time of the Mongol invasions. The fact that the Copts didn't revolt against the Mamluk persecutions clearly indicates they were a minority by then. There is a huge tendency on the Internet to exaggerate how long it took for the Middle East to become Muslim majority. I don't think this is surprising, though, as several modern ideologies benefit from exaggerating the number of Christians in the pre-modern Islamic world.

 

[WolfBear]

I don't think Egypt was still Coptic majority at the time of the Mongol invasions. The fact that the Copts didn't revolt against the Mamluk persecutions clearly indicates they were a minority by then. There is a huge tendency on the Internet to exaggerate how long it took for the Middle East to become Muslim majority. I don't think this is surprising, though, as several modern ideologies benefit from exaggerating the number of Christians in the pre-modern Islamic world.

Would you say that Egypt became Muslim-majority around the year 1000?

Interestingly enough, it's the lower Egyptian classes that converted to Islam the most:

Explaining Coptic Success

It has been noted in the HBDsphere that the Christian Arabs sorry N.N. Taleb, I meant Phoenicians, Copts, Maronites, Alawites, etc., have been rather successful relative to their Muslim neighbors. This is true for economic achievement (e.g. Carlos Slim, Steve Jobs) and for intellectual...

www.unz.com

 

[History Learner]

I don't think Egypt was still Coptic majority at the time of the Mongol invasions. The fact that the Copts didn't revolt against the Mamluk persecutions clearly indicates they were a minority by then. There is a huge tendency on the Internet to exaggerate how long it took for the Middle East to become Muslim majority. I don't think this is surprising, though, as several modern ideologies benefit from exaggerating the number of Christians in the pre-modern Islamic world.

Most modern estimates believe that Egypt remained majority Christian until somewhere between the 10th and 12th Centuries, but some suggest as late as the 14th Century and that their loss of majority status was tied into the Mamluk persecutions. As late as ~1900, ~10% of the population was Coptic; it's why I lean towards somewhere in the 12th to 14th.

 

[WolfBear]

Most modern estimates believe that Egypt remained majority Christian until somewhere between the 10th and 12th Centuries, but some suggest as late as the 14th Century and that their loss of majority status was tied into the Mamluk persecutions. As late as ~1900, ~10% of the population was Coptic; it's why I lean towards somewhere in the 12th to 14th.

Do you believe that this 1914 Ottoman Empire religion map is accurate and reliable?

The Christian percentage in the Ottoman-ruled Middle East in 1914:

 

[Atarlost]

Imagine an eventual Christian fundamentalist "Taliban" coming to power in Afghanistan in this TL!

Doctrine matters.

Mohammed made perfidy not only acceptable but potentially mandatory against nonbelievers when he betrayed his treaty with Mecca and required his followers to break any oaths they had with the non-muslim citizens of Mecca. Mohammed made brigandage acceptable by raiding caravans during his time in Medina. And Mohammed endorsed conversion by the sword. Thus fundamentalist Islam is naturally perfidious, thieving, and violent.

Christianity calls all of those things sins. Secular states claiming to be Christian have done them, but fundamentalist Christianity rejects them and they have become less acceptable in Christendom since the printing press joined with the vulgate (ie. written in the non-Latin language of the people) Bible and widespread vulgate literacy.

Christian fundamentalist Afghans would send agents to sermonize in Central Park, not crash airliners into the WTC. The only ones who might possibly have to fear violence would be those working in the baby murder industry or groomers sufficiently notorious to be identified and targeted by foreigners. And the for profit megachurches. Jesus did drive the money changers from the Temple with a scourge after all.

 

[Ricardolindo]

Most modern estimates believe that Egypt remained majority Christian until somewhere between the 10th and 12th Centuries, but some suggest as late as the 14th Century and that their loss of majority status was tied into the Mamluk persecutions. As late as ~1900, ~10% of the population was Coptic; it's why I lean towards somewhere in the 12th to 14th.

Note the Copts didn't revolt against the Mamluk persecutions. That makes it very likely that they were a minority by then. As for ten percent of Egyptians being Coptic in 1900, that might still be the case today and you shouldn't assume the Coptic population never grew again through higher birth rates.

 

[VictortheMonarch]

I don't think Egypt was still Coptic majority at the time of the Mongol invasions. The fact that the Copts didn't revolt against the Mamluk persecutions clearly indicates they were a minority by then. There is a huge tendency on the Internet to exaggerate how long it took for the Middle East to become Muslim majority. I don't think this is surprising, though, as several modern ideologies benefit from exaggerating the number of Christians in the pre-modern Islamic world.

The copts were mostly massacred during the Rashidun-Umayyad respective caliphates. They revolted plenty, I think the last major one was in the 900's. At that point they had killed so many men that there were quite few left, and even then it was really only in the southern Egypt. So all it took was a few forced conversions, marrying the widows to new arabs and tada, the new Arab Egyptians are born.

 

[History Learner]

Note the Copts didn't revolt against the Mamluk persecutions. That makes it very likely that they were a minority by then. As for ten percent of Egyptians being Coptic in 1900, that might still be the case today and you shouldn't assume the Coptic population never grew again through higher birth rates.

I don't see a rational connect between rebellion and population size; after the Bashmurian Revolts, there was no more Coptic revolts despite most historians agreeing they remained a majority for somewhere between another century and three. As for their modern day population, I think they've stayed around 10%; Muslim fertility is higher and has been for sometime outside of Upper Egypt. They match in fertility in the aforementioned place but Muslims compose 60% of the overall population there.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

At the very least, a Nestorian Mongol state would find itself as either a natural ally of the Kara Khitans, or as another enemy. However, if the Nestorian Mongols do end up absorbing the Kara Khitans peacefully, you'd probably have a Nestorian superstate stretching from the borders of what is now OTL Eastern Kazakhstan to the Jurchen lands in the east. Heck, a Nestorian Mongol state could also proselytize to the Jurchens by improving on their writing system, which may make conversions a bit easier.