United States Are Democrats still for poor people?

[CarlManvers2019]

The simple way to provide the poor help in a way that is morally redemptive, that encourages their participation in society, and that gives them "skin in the game" and a connection to support, to camraderie, and other morally positive things, is to directly link welfare to work.

You mean actually giving them a job where even if the pay isn’t exactly so high, their meals and uniforms and tools are part of their employee package?

The company I’m working at that surprisingly enough does that, when I mentioned that I thought we required employees to pay for all those stuff from their own wages he said something along the lines of not being THAT stupid and cruel

That said, I think there’s a problem with you Westerners having high minimum wage and a combination of unemployment and lots of illegal migrants you can’t exactly get rid of

 

[Deleted member]

The idea would be, yes, either the businesses or the government through stamps you can buy gives you access to low-cost goods so you can live on the salary that you make. It would be funded by the taxpayer, sure, but it avoids creating a chattel class psychologically dependent on government aid. The best and most effective government programs were and are social insurance schemes that create a sense of investment and ownership.

Of course noncitizens would be ineligible and work requirements for immigrants strictly enforced.

 

[Lanmandragon]

A good portion of the left doesn't care for the poor, but rather, hates the rich and uses caring for the poor as a justification. What it really boils down to is hatred rather than care.

Now, this is a generalization and I know plenty of liberal leaning people who do genuinely care for the poor. The former is not a small amount of people, though

There's crossover to as in folks who both care about the poor and hate the rich. With different levels of care and hate depending on the person. Folks are complex who knew?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

There's crossover to as in folks who both care about the poor and hate the rich. With different levels of care and hate depending on the person. Folks are complex who knew?

Plus, the Champagne Socialists types don’t really have hate, they are just in on a sort of trend

 

[CarlManvers2019]

While employee benefits that are sort of a cheap expense for the employers sounds like a nice practical idea

I do have to point out the problem of there being enough jobs in the first place, it would be even harder given that you guys have so many illegal migrants to deal with too

Also, the problem of needing psychological help, people who live on welfare checks and are somehow only satisfied with Barely Living and being in frankly horrible living conditions may have given up on life to varying degrees

 

[Deleted member]

While employee benefits that are sort of a cheap expense for the employers sounds like a nice practical idea

I do have to point out the problem of there being enough jobs in the first place, it would be even harder given that you guys have so many illegal migrants to deal with too

Also, the problem of needing psychological help, people who live on welfare checks and are somehow only satisfied with Barely Living and being in frankly horrible living conditions may have given up on life to varying degrees

Getting those people back into the workforce is a critical part of social regeneration. Simply mandating a work requirement or even implementing my stamp program won’t do it alone, sure, but that’s because the community bonds which hold together society and motivate people have been ruined.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Getting those people back into the workforce is a critical part of social regeneration. Simply mandating a work requirement or even implementing my stamp program won’t do it alone, sure, but that’s because the community bonds which hold together society and motivate people have been ruined.

There’s also the problem of keeping track and seeing if a person really is trying to get a job or not

And while Government Intervention is talked like a miracle cure, even government employees can be incompetents or not so devoted to the job and just be hurrying along the way due to too many people to catch up with

Man, Republicans are kinda sounding like the “hands off, it will maybe deal with itself better, without constant intervention” sort of guys

 

[Deleted member]

There’s also the problem of keeping track and seeing if a person really is trying to get a job or not

Creating a system where you buy stamps and the stamps can be redeemed for greater their purchase value in basic goods and services eliminates that constraint; the person simply has to have enough money to buy the stamps with. They can bring income verification with them to the post office and the number of stamps they can buy for x-amount of money is based on that. But no money, no stamps.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

But no money, no stamps.

THIS is the biggest problem with your idea, even if it would actually work in practice, it would face a LOT of opposition

Conservatives in fiction are already repeatedly called to be hypocrites who believe in hardwork but have rich guys who got their business through inheritance saying the same hard work=success whilst not everybody, especially the working class manages to reach for the top or get much

 

[Deleted member]

THIS is the biggest problem with your idea, even if it would actually work in practice, it would face a LOT of opposition

Conservatives in fiction are already repeatedly called to be hypocrites who believe in hardwork but have rich guys who got their business through inheritance saying the same hard work=success whilst not everybody, especially the working class manages to reach for the top or get much

By eliminating the minimum wage, we eliminate any barriers to even very casual day labourer employment to guarantee people have money to buy the stamps. It's about promoting a culture of work and self-responsibility, even if, in reality, government intervention is still required to meet our social duties to our fellow-citizens. The advantage is that doing that way avoids a culture of dependence, eliminates artificial pressures for automation and outsourcing, and is more efficient, because the program is self-regulating.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

By eliminating the minimum wage, we eliminate any barriers to even very casual day labourer employment to guarantee people have money to buy the stamps. It's about promoting a culture of work and self-responsibility, even if, in reality, government intervention is still required to meet our social duties to our fellow-citizens. The advantage is that doing that way avoids a culture of dependence, eliminates artificial pressures for automation and outsourcing, and is more efficient, because the program is self-regulating.

Again, there is the problem of people’s preconceptions

By abolishing minimum wage, people will think that most or every single businessman will be an asshole who will pay everybody slave wages due to being extremely cheap

They will then talk about Robber Barons and Bioshock’s Andrew Ryan, saying that we/you want the world to turn out like Bioshock’s Rapture

An Anarchocapitalist World, where the rich are those in power and making what amount to laws

Pragmatism as a limiter or something to ward businessmen off being extreme douchebags is not something people think of so much. If anything they think tbe ONLY way to get them in line isn’t pointing out things of Enlightened Self-Interest, but through government force.

The government is the solution to all problems, centralization is the solution to all problems, is probably what they all believe to varying extents

 

[Lanmandragon]

There’s also the problem of keeping track and seeing if a person really is trying to get a job or not

And while Government Intervention is talked like a miracle cure, even government employees can be incompetents or not so devoted to the job and just be hurrying along the way due to too many people to catch up with

Man, Republicans are kinda sounding like the “hands off, it will maybe deal with itself better, without constant intervention” sort of guys

That's because in reality the only one who can help you. Is in fact you no amount of assistance will helpi if YOU aren't willing to work for it.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

That's because in reality the only one who can help you. Is in fact you no amount of assistance will helpi if YOU aren't willing to work for it.

Not just be willing to work, but also be smart at it, like NOT going to college and getting a horrible college debt or going to college to get a degree for something that’s NOT related to STEM or something

You would still be subject to outside forces like bosses being assholes or being let go for economic reasons though, but the likelihood is lessened and you may be more likely to get by with an accumulation of skill and knowledge from the internet

That said, as I pointed out before, much of Hollywood and the Left will keep on going about how there are people who inherit their money or receive it from their parents to start up their money like Trump getting two million to start up his business

Though funnily enough, I see this sort of hypocrisy on the Right being more villified than the presence of MANY champagne socialists going kn about how capitalism is evil whilst consuming so much product

 

[Lanmandragon]

Not just be willing to work, but also be smart at it, like NOT going to college and getting a horrible college debt or going to college to get a degree for something that’s NOT related to STEM or something

You would still be subject to outside forces like bosses being assholes or being let go for economic reasons though, but the likelihood is lessened and you may be more likely to get by with an accumulation of skill and knowledge from the internet

That said, as I pointed out before, much of Hollywood and the Left will keep on going about how there are people who inherit their money or receive it from their parents to start up their money like Trump getting two million to start up his business

Though funnily enough, I see this sort of hypocrisy on the Right being more villified than the presence of MANY champagne socialists going kn about how capitalism is evil whilst consuming so much product

It's also important to understand you are going to fail. Then fail again and again. If you actually want to succeed you have to get the hell back up when you fall. Far to many folks fail and stop. Without the awareness that failing is literally the key to success.

 

[Deleted member]

Again, there is the problem of people’s preconceptions

By abolishing minimum wage, people will think that most or every single businessman will be an asshole who will pay everybody slave wages due to being extremely cheap

They will then talk about Robber Barons and Bioshock’s Andrew Ryan, saying that we/you want the world to turn out like Bioshock’s Rapture

An Anarchocapitalist World, where the rich are those in power and making what amount to laws

Pragmatism as a limiter or something to ward businessmen off being extreme douchebags is not something people think of so much. If anything they think tbe ONLY way to get them in line isn’t pointing out things of Enlightened Self-Interest, but through government force.

The government is the solution to all problems, centralization is the solution to all problems, is probably what they all believe to varying extents

People would still have a right to organise, and also a right to look for another job.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

People would still have a right to organise, and also a right to look for another job.

For the first, I think plenty believe that in a close to Ancap society, the corporations would murder those unions

Also, they’d be cynical about the availability of the latter

 

[Deleted member]

For the first, I think plenty believe that in a close to Ancap society, the corporations would murder those unions

Also, they’d be cynical about the availability of the latter

If we hadn't engaged in market distortion by forcing wage growth, we would have plenty of jobs. The premier time of American prosperity--the 50s and 60s--was a period where we didn't have a minimum wage...

 

[CarlManvers2019]

If we hadn't engaged in market distortion by forcing wage growth, we would have plenty of jobs. The premier time of American prosperity--the 50s and 60s--was a period where we didn't have a minimum wage...

I’m pretty sure most people who have been indoctrinated by Hollywood see those times as being frankly HORRIBLE times full of Robber Barons and people being so Anti-Communist that they allowed corporations to exploit lots of people

Again, it doesn’t matter what happened before or how things actually work, it matters how people’s preconceptions work

Too many have been indoctrinated by their “relevant” entertainment which goes anything remotely Right Wing=Nazi, Getting Rich&Capitalism=Evil and Free Market Unregulated Capitalism=Rapture

They will also even connect that stuff, especially those eras, with racism

 

[Lanmandragon]

For the first, I think plenty believe that in a close to Ancap society, the corporations would murder those unions

Also, they’d be cynical about the availability of the latter

The problem with this is very few folks are arguing for an ancap Society. There's a difference between lowering regulations and not having any. What your talking about is basically a strawman.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

The problem with this is very few folks are arguing for an ancap Society. There's a difference between lowering regulations and not having any. What your talking about is basically a strawman.

Yeah, but the strawman is something they believe in, a slippery slope of sorts as well