The Americas 'Anti-racist grading' coming to a school near you

The studies that show bad life outcomes from spanking are worthless, because they can’t isolate variables, they find correlations and not causation. To have a useful study, the would have to randomly divide children into spanking and non-spanking groups and not allow parents to decide which discipline method to use.

I know that anecdotal evidence probably isn’t any better, but children who get spanned sure seem to behave a lot better than those who do not.
 
Is there some psychological trauma? Even in just a child is afraid of say a belt? Or gets tense when entering their parent’s bedroom, due to the affects? Probably.

I was spanked as a child. Though, I don’t think it’s the most effective punishment, at least in terms of inculcating moral attitudes. It always seemed cathartic, for the parents more than anything.

I would only say spanking should be banned if it could be irrefutably proven it had lasting trauma that negatively affected a child’s life and health into adulthood.

And even then, that’s a massive trade off as you have far less behaved kids as a result.

There’s also the issue of what discipline is supposed to do. If it’s just a form of Skinnerian negative feedback stimuli, then it ought only be used in limited situations.

I don’t think spanking a child with a hand or belt or paddle makes them virtuous or inculcates good virtues. If it’s used without doing teaching them why they should act a certain way, they’ll either turn out bad or simply not respect their parents.

Spare the Rod, spoil the child is true, but unless the child is taught right, then there just going to resent their parents as an adult while not having learned anything.
 
I was spanked a few times as a kid. I preferred it over being denied video games and TV or my mom yelling at me.

Then again, I have a high pain tolerance.
 
I got it all, denied things, yelled at, spanked, grounded.

At a certain point, a child’s mind is their own though. And if they have already decided against following what their parents teach, punishment simply becomes something they endure until they can emancipate themselves from their parents’ authority.

At that point, no discipline is really effective.
 
At a certain point, a child’s mind is their own though. And if they have already decided against following what their parents teach, punishment simply becomes something they endure until they can emancipate themselves from their parents’ authority.

At that point, no discipline is really effective.
From reading the studies I cited above, it appears that light spanking (two-swat method is listed as most effective) works up until around 5-6 and needs phasing out then which fits pretty well. As a child develops more cognitive function, they become better able to reason on their own and "I'll spank you if you touch the stove" is less needed for their safety.
 
You can impose meaningful consequences on children without resorting to corporal punishment, so I'd argue that the idea that no corporal punishment equals no discipline at all is a complete strawman.

I generally oppose corporal punishment not because I think children are "entitled" to act as they please, but because developmental psychology studies consistently show that corporal punishment causes increased aggression, antisocial behavior, and long term mental health issues. I think it should be *at most* a last resort for the most severe situations, and certainly never applied by anyone other than parents.

Yeah, that's crap, as others have already linked to studies demonstrating.

Even at a young age, it is true that corporal punishment is unwise with some children. Each child is unique, and reacts to different stimuli in different ways. Learning your children's nature and learning what means of discipline are effective, which are not, and which are outright counter-productive, is important.

Bluntly put, failing to properly discipline one's children, whatever form properly may mean, is a form of neglect, abuse, or both.

It can be a very difficult line to walk, between teaching children the importance of fair treatment, and that the world is all too often unfair.
 
If you see people today it's not bizarre at all to think they weren't hit enough it's very natural.


Indeed. Growing up I got my ass whooped as a kid. My Dad made it clear he was in charge, these were the rules and if you broke them, out came the belt. So learned to fall in line fairly quick though I did push it on occasion. My sisters though? Nah, not them. They didn't get the belt. They got grounded or privileges' revoked. All that did was make them spiteful or just uncooperative in the future. Ore they just lied and blamed whatever they were in trouble for, on me. I've noticed a serious difference in me and them in our outlooks. At first I thought it was just a difference between boys and girls growing up. Nope, I've met other people who were spanked vs those who were not. There is a noticeable difference.
 
If you see people today it's not bizarre at all to think they weren't hit enough it's very natural.

For many, I don’t think they simply weren’t hit, in fact they may have outright been encouraged and maybe the parents even supported them the whole way

Which is how they were allowed to go do all those non-STEM courses in college for so long
 
Sadly most people don't learn how little they know about childcare until the moment their actually in charge of small children.

After doing childcare for awhile I learned to hate surprises.

I can see why parents would be against Home Schooling

It would mean having to deal with their kids for the whole day and not having the patience themselves to teach said kids or watch over their education and such

Hell, aside from having to go to work and clean the house, not having to deal with the kids is probably why they send em to daycares
 
Don't really care much about corporal punishment one way or another. I mean its probably the easier way to have a disciplined classroom but in the end bad students are bad students and bad teachers are bad teachers.

The same way if a teacher sucks at their job or is interested more in teaching stuff other than the actual course material I would advocate they really should not be there or the parents should look into what they can do about it.

I also don't think its the job of the school or especially other students to prop up the failing students performance at the cost of their own. Because that kinda is what it is. Devaluing the weight and value of test scores and certifications in general either to cover for failing teachers or failing students. Sometimes and likely too often both.
 
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The idea that corporal punishment is the foundational key to Western civilization such that it inevitably falls into complete and absolute collapse if you use any other form of discipline is pretty bizarre.

If you abadonn corporal punishment,then mafia,gangs and any other groups which actually always used it would gradually take over.And becouse they belong not to one cyvilisation,but many,we would have cyvil war which lead to mafia/tribal states fighting each other.
Unless China,which also always used such punishment,would take over Eart.Or Caliphate...if muslims united.which mean never.
 
To return to the actual topic of the thread:

I'm sure my employer, who wants some calculations done, will be very happy with an interpretive African dance. Who the fuck needs spreadsheets? Lots of white cells - reeks of white supremacy.

I would point out here that he is literally talking about kindergarten level math. It is not at all inappropriate, at this grade level, to say that teachers should focus on whether or not the child actually understands the math operation 2+2=4 and can communicate this in some manner, as opposed to writing in letters on a worksheet, "2+2=4". That does not translate to accepting interpretive dance in the workplace.

(Here's a relevant personal anecdote: I was fully capable of reading by kindergarten, yet the school I was in placed me in a pre-reading group because when we were given a standardized assessment, I marked all the bubbles to the *left* of the correct answer instead of the ones to the *right*. My parents pointed that out in a parent-teacher conference; the school refused to even consider revising the grade or the placement because "the answers are the answers". And that was an expensive Christian private school, not even an overworked public school.)

As for the rest of the criticized article, I would absolutely fucking hope that no one disagrees that a teacher should not give students a lower grade or denying a student needed help due to the teacher disliking the student, which is literally the bottom line argument of the article. The article simply points out that teacher behavior in this matter *is* implicitly tied to cultural stereotypes, because guess which students the teacher is likely to think are "just having a bad time" and need a little extra help and flexibility, and which students the teacher is likely to write off as "bad students" and deserve to be "taught a lesson" by hammering them harshly for the slightest offense?
 
Math is math. Any attempts to apply racial justice on it as is dangerous and violent as any attempts to apply racial justice to anything. Only, far more violent as it actively erodes civilization by politicizing the one universal constant.
 
Math is math, sure, but teaching is teaching. You don't try to teach kindergarteners in a college lecture setting and then proclaim that they're stupid and lazy troublemakers for not being able to follow along.

You're reverting to ideological truisms against "racial justice" to non-specifically oppose an article which says that teachers should treat students with both fairness and kindness, and provides examples that are completely sensible.
 
Math is math, sure, but teaching is teaching. You don't try to teach kindergarteners in a college lecture setting and then proclaim that they're stupid and lazy troublemakers for not being able to follow along.

You're reverting to ideological truisms against "racial justice" to non-specifically oppose an article which says that teachers should treat students with both fairness and kindness, and provides examples that are completely sensible.
But who decides what form that fairness and kindness takes? The people who usually complain about stuff like this are ones i wouldn't want around children. I can easily see that 'fairness and kindness' in practice being the teacher only helps non whites and little billy can go be a colonizer elsewhere.

For the past several years anytime a good sounding euphemism about how to have equality with regards to race has come up the pratical result has near always been fuck whitey. The ideas themselves may be good i don't know enough to say if they are good or bad. However i do know the people selling this have 0 stars and a history of labeling cancer as a free blowie on Amazon. Mark my words in a few months we will here about how the teachers never help the white kids. Coincidentally dey'quantrus's grades will still be shit and we will all be told that we have more work to do with ''structural racism'' i:e tear whitey down to they're level.
 
If the article's premise of "poor grades are caused by faulty grading metrics and bad attitudes on the part of staff", we should see statistical evidence of that, and on a quick skim of google that doesn't appear to be the case, on average US test scores have been rising for decades. There are certainly districts and demographics where that is not the case, but there's no reason (or at least, no cited reason) why this sort of different learning thing should be clustered back on race or location.

Regarding the proposed ideologies that need to be eliminated, I have some issues with all of them.
The first is the ideology of should know. There's this false belief that if a 2nd grader walked into my classroom, there are certain things she should know. Rather, it's our job as teachers to discern what students do know and then move them forward.

That's not a false ideology, that's how the system is supposed to work. To graduate from one grade to the next, you must show proficiency to a certain degree in certain subjects. If you don't, you don't graduate, or you do but sorted into some sort of remedial program. Does it always work like that? No. Does it work like that in the overwhelming majority of cases? Yes. More importantly, is it practical to do otherwise? Also no.

Teachers cannot create an individualized lesson and learning plan for all of the students they have. Let's say you have, oh, 30 or so students per class, which is a fairly small number. That's still at least 120 people if they have 4 classes per day, which is also a fairly light workload. That's too many people to do this for. It's probably too much to expect them to do this for the lowest performing ten or fifteen percent of the class.

The second thing I would eliminate is the ideology of transactional gratitude. In most academic spaces, there is a silent pact that teachers make with students: I will agree to teach you well if you demonstrate to me that you are thankful for it. And if you do not demonstrate to me that you are thankful for it, I will withhold quality teaching from you. A teacher will be in the lounge and say something like, "You know, I've done everything to make sure that McKibben kid understands how to add. But all she does is yell. She's not thankful. So I'm not doing it no more." Or, "Can you believe I stayed after school for two hours to help Sarah with her essay and she still didn't turn it in? That kid can forget about it from me." We expect students to show up with gratitude because we do our jobs.

People are not going to put in 100% effort on something if that effort is not appreciated, not just in academic fields, in every field. That's just human nature. Small children are capable of basic courtesy and respect towards others, and it is entirely reasonable to expect that of them. Everyone on earth expects gratitude for doing thier jobs and will not respond well to ungratefulness.

The cited examples undermine this point even more. If I stayed after school for two hours trying to help a student, who then demonstrated that the extra effort on my part was wasted, there's no way I'd do that again.

The third is the ideology of deservedness. Even though grading is about proficiency, it often gets conflated with behavior. You can have a student who is proficient at calculus, but if the teacher doesn't like the fact that they are consistently late to class, that kid gets marked down. Again, there's an unspoken pact teachers have with their children: I will agree to teach you well if you demonstrate to me that you deserve it.

Again, this applies to every job and every person on earth. If you can do you all of job requirements, but are late, difficult to work with, or otherwise troublesome, you will be lucky if you're still employed. Merely getting dinged on a performance review (or classroom grade) is incredibility generous.
 
Very well put Battlegrinder. It is entirely appropriate for a teacher to be treated with respect by the students, and in point of fact, people rarely are willing to learn anything from people that they do not respect, and even when they are, such learning is generally less effective.

If your school is teaching students that they don't need to treat anyone with respect, that'll sabotage their life just as much as shoddy academics will.
 

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