Alternate History Anglo Saxon reconquest of England from Byzantium

[Deleted member 88]

New England (medieval) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Everyone loves a good “exiled monarch reclaims their throne” story. Anyways, after 1066 quite a few English nobles and apparently their retinues fled to Constantinople and many served in the Varangian guard.

So here’s an idea, sometime in the 11th century or so-roughly 1100-1200 AD, a group of Anglo Saxons elect a king, amongst themselves, or I dunno Harold Godwinson has some bastard child that flees to Constantinople if we want to make it more dramatic.

Anyway, this Anglo Saxon restorationist party petitions the Byzantine emperor to return to their homelands, possibly with a promise of a conversion to Orthodoxy, the emperor magnanimous accepts, and gives them ships and perhaps more men and resources.

They return to England, and in a decisive battle smash the descendant of William the Conqueror, and reinstall the Anglo Saxon kings.

A few main points, how could such an an above scenario be achieved and what preconditions would be necessary?

Also what the consequences be?

Thoughts? Ideas? Commentary?

 

[Deleted member]

I'd push back and suggest the more interesting scenario is the New England colony in the Crimean actually prospering and ending up culturally dominating the entire peninsula and attracting more refugees from the Harrowing of the North...

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

I'd push back and suggest the more interesting scenario is the New England colony in the Crimean actually prospering and ending up culturally dominating the entire peninsula and attracting more refugees from the Harrowing of the North...

I'd honestly agree on that, I am interested in that little historical footnote myself. Would be interesting to see how it develops, would they remain catholic, or would they eventually become protestant or some Western Rite Orthodox.

 

[Deleted member 88]

That’s an interesting scenario in its own right. To survive New Anglia would need to be able to endure attacks from the Rus, Pechenegs, Tartars, Mongols, and any future Islamic presence in the region.

Not to mention, the Anglo Saxons were an infantry style force, in a cavalry centered region.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

That’s an interesting scenario in its own right. To survive New Anglia would need to be able to endure attacks from the Rus, Pechenegs, Tartars, Mongols, and any future Islamic presence in the region.

Not to mention, the Anglo Saxons were an infantry style force, in a cavalry centered region.

Mounted Infantry wasn't it? If I am not mistaken the Anglo-Saxons preferred to use horses to bring their elite infantry to the battlefield.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Mounted Infantry wasn't it? If I am not mistaken the Anglo-Saxons preferred to use horses to bring their elite infantry to the battlefield.

Mostly yes. Cavalry was not something they were particularly good at. And the Varangians fought on foot.

In the OP, I could see them having cavalry supplements from Byzantium or other parties-perhaps knights from Serbia or somewhere.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Mostly yes. Cavalry was not something they were particularly good at. And the Varangians fought on foot.

In the OP, I could see them having cavalry supplements from Byzantium or other parties-perhaps knights from Serbia or somewhere.

Probably. And they might adapt infantry tactics to use against it, even pioneering some form of shield, pike, shot to protect against cavalry, especially cavalry archers.

I'll see if I can't discuss OP plus the other scenario.

 

[Deleted member 88]

I don’t see why in theory you couldn’t combine them, a Saxon state in New Anglia and an attempt
perhaps later in the 11th century to reconquer England.

 

[Arch Dornan]

That looks fun. Worth a story to write or a game.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Perhaps Nova Anglia forces (now seperate from Varangian Guard) are crucial in defending the Constantinople from the forces of the Fourth Crusade and therby the emperor agreed to finance their expedition.
However I can't see how enough people could reach the Constantinople from England, to make the colony viable. There would be significant intermarriage with the locals so it is important the return happens before they completely lose their English identity.

 

[Deleted member]

That’s an interesting scenario in its own right. To survive New Anglia would need to be able to endure attacks from the Rus, Pechenegs, Tartars, Mongols, and any future Islamic presence in the region.

Not to mention, the Anglo Saxons were an infantry style force, in a cavalry centered region.

Well, the peninsula has a narrow neck which could be fortified, if you held the entire thing. The problem is that it's mostly open plains, except in the south, so there's plenty of grazing land for nomads' horses south of the neck.

Perhaps Nova Anglia forces (now seperate from Varangian Guard) are crucial in defending the Constantinople from the forces of the Fourth Crusade and therby the emperor agreed to finance their expedition.
However I can't see how enough people could reach the Constantinople from England, to make the colony viable. There would be significant intermarriage with the locals so it is important the return happens before they completely lose their English identity.

Instead of William buying off the Danes during Sweyn's expedition to the north, they fight alongside the Anglo-Saxons as planned, and when finally defeated by William, the Danes take aboard their allies, who are allowed to depart down the "Varangian Road" for the Crimean, substantially increasing their numbers.

Then, Edgar Aetheling, who was elected King by the Witengamot in resistance to William, leads another band in Scotland, which historically was invited to settle in France along the border of Normandy by the King of France. However, their ship was wrecked historically; here it isn't (butterflies from the above event) and they settle in France. There, after William dies, Edgar actually became an advisor to his son Robert Curthose, the Duke of Normandy (separate from the Norman King of England).

Here we imagine that during the negotiations for the mortgage of the Duchy of Normandy to receive funds for his participation in the First Crusade, he is allowed to further recruit Anglo-Saxons in England for the Crusade (no better way to get rid of troublemakers, right?). Edgar Aetheling, with more power having actually an fair number of followers and then later escapees who joined him (a larger group has a more magnetic effect for emigres), follows along with Curthose and fights under his command in the First Crusade, but is not able to seize one of the fiefs in the Holy Land for himself and his followers.

At the end of the expedition, Curthose allows him and his men to return to Constantinople, instead, where the Emperor welcomes them and allows them to settle in New Anglia, becoming a vassal regime to Byzantium. With this force in place, he has enough troops to conquer the peninsula to the neck and begin fortifying it, though he doesn't rule all of it, because of the Principality of Teodoro in the south, but both are Imperial vassals. His men intermarry with the locals, but the first waves included enough Anglish women to influence the culture, and more arrive from Edgar's briefly held fief in France once the situation is settled, anyway.

That gives us about a century of Imperial prosperity for trading and growth of New Anglia before 1204.

 

[stevep]

New England (medieval) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Everyone loves a good “exiled monarch reclaims their throne” story. Anyways, after 1066 quite a few English nobles and apparently their retinues fled to Constantinople and many served in the Varangian guard.

So here’s an idea, sometime in the 11th century or so-roughly 1100-1200 AD, a group of Anglo Saxons elect a king, amongst themselves, or I dunno Harold Godwinson has some bastard child that flees to Constantinople if we want to make it more dramatic.

Anyway, this Anglo Saxon restorationist party petitions the Byzantine emperor to return to their homelands, possibly with a promise of a conversion to Orthodoxy, the emperor magnanimous accepts, and gives them ships and perhaps more men and resources.

They return to England, and in a decisive battle smash the descendant of William the Conqueror, and reinstall the Anglo Saxon kings.

A few main points, how could such an an above scenario be achieved and what preconditions would be necessary?

Also what the consequences be?

Thoughts? Ideas? Commentary?

Lord Invictus

Interesting idea and a lot of Anglo-Saxon's did end up in the Varangian Guard, suffering terrible losses in the defeat at the Battle of Dyrrhachium, after early losses. Possibly if that had gone the other way then its possible that some basis for those forces to return and liberate England but the Normans did get a tight grip and bring in a lot of mercanaries very quickly so it really needs something in the late 60's to be likely to work.

King Harold did have a number of son's by his 1st wife Edyth Swanneck. In Jan 1066 he married Edith, daughter of Aefgar, the previous Earl of Mercia, possibly to try and establish a connection with his son's who now ruled both Mercia and Northumbria. She had a son, Harold born after the king's death but gained no protection from her brothers who initially made their peace with William and was forced to flee abroad.

Harold's older son's fled to Ireland- as his family had in the early 1050's when briefly exiled and later returned, raising recruits in the SW and holding Exeter for a while but were eventually defeat. Probably that would be the best option for an English liberation, combined with other uprisings elsewhere.

In terms of the spin off idea of an English colony in the east then possibly if Dyrrhachium had been an imperial success, which it could easily have been then the English forces survive and gain a fair amount of fame. As well as helping the empire a lot as the defeat caused the empire some serious problems. This could mean that they end up being settled, say in the Crimean as suggested and their faith and the plight of England mean that others are persuaded to flee eastwards.

If such a state survived for a while, possibly even until some equilavent of the Mongol invasions then it would very likely become Orthodox in faith but could maintain a fair amount of other English language and culture. Serving as a buffer between the Rus and then assorted nomad groups and the empire. Definitely an interest possibility.

Steve

 

[ATP]

New England (medieval) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Everyone loves a good “exiled monarch reclaims their throne” story. Anyways, after 1066 quite a few English nobles and apparently their retinues fled to Constantinople and many served in the Varangian guard.

So here’s an idea, sometime in the 11th century or so-roughly 1100-1200 AD, a group of Anglo Saxons elect a king, amongst themselves, or I dunno Harold Godwinson has some bastard child that flees to Constantinople if we want to make it more dramatic.

Anyway, this Anglo Saxon restorationist party petitions the Byzantine emperor to return to their homelands, possibly with a promise of a conversion to Orthodoxy, the emperor magnanimous accepts, and gives them ships and perhaps more men and resources.

They return to England, and in a decisive battle smash the descendant of William the Conqueror, and reinstall the Anglo Saxon kings.

A few main points, how could such an an above scenario be achieved and what preconditions would be necessary?

Also what the consequences be?

Thoughts? Ideas? Commentary?

I am from Poland - and in Poland one of our provinces,Mazovia,use old sign as heraldy - Wyvern exactly like that used by Wessex.Why? after 1066,some anglo saxons becomes important gentry there.
They relatively quickly forget their roots,but what if they not ? Mazovia after 1138 become independent princedoom,and was till 1526.
What if there would be saxon prince,who would support re-conqest of England,and hold close ties with them after that?
And since mazovia made alliances/and wars/ with russian princes, they could made contact with saxon Crimea that way.

 

[stevep]

I am from Poland - and in Poland one of our provinces,Mazovia,use old sign as heraldy - Wyvern exactly like that used by Wessex.Why? after 1066,some anglo saxons becomes important gentry there.
They relatively quickly forget their roots,but what if they not ? Mazovia after 1138 become independent princedoom,and was till 1526.
What if there would be saxon prince,who would support re-conqest of England,and hold close ties with them after that?
And since mazovia made alliances/and wars/ with russian princes, they could made contact with saxon Crimea that way.

ATP

Interesting idea. I suspect that after a couple of generations in exile and having put down roots and marrying into the local population I can't see there being the will and capacity to send a large proportion of military strength to invade England and seek to depose the Normans, or by this time one of their successor dynasties. After all apart from anything else can they afford to send so many men away from their home base?

Never near about the settlement of some refugees in Mazovia. Knew that the sons of Edmund Ironside saw exile in Hungary at the start of the 11thC, after Canute's victory but not that. Shows how much people and families could get about even with relatively limited transport abilities. Thanks.

Steve

 

[ATP]

ATP

Interesting idea. I suspect that after a couple of generations in exile and having put down roots and marrying into the local population I can't see there being the will and capacity to send a large proportion of military strength to invade England and seek to depose the Normans, or by this time one of their successor dynasties. After all apart from anything else can they afford to send so many men away from their home base?

Never near about the settlement of some refugees in Mazovia. Knew that the sons of Edmund Ironside saw exile in Hungary at the start of the 11thC, after Canute's victory but not that. Shows how much people and families could get about even with relatively limited transport abilities. Thanks.

Steve

Well,Mazovia was still ruled by Piast dynasty,and must fight against other polish princes,prussian,lithuanian and russian raids.
They would never have resources for retaking England,even if that Piast prince was replaced by saxon one.

P.S some oldest gentry in Mazovia had crest looking like saxon sigils,but apparently most of them forget about their roots.
Althought gentry using Korab crest remembered that they come from England.
There have even old legend about english knight who come there after defeating some sea monster.