Scooby Doo
Well-known member
The Fallout of Shady Sands does not mean the destruction, you do know that Falls in Historical terms are not instantaneous?
Did the Roman Empire fall immediately? No
Amazon Prime Amazon Fallout series.
- Thread starter Carrot of Truth
- Start date
Did the Roman Empire fall immediately? No
Oh shit what was that!?
Right but it'd also be nonsensical to have rome explode in a nuclear firestorm but claim it's 'real fall' was some twenty years earlier or some such.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
By your same argument it'd be idiotic to call a nuking of a city "A Fall" instead of "The Destruction".
It's a very clear and obvious reference to the events leading up to New Vegas with it running low on water to sustain their population
You cannot have 'the fall' of the capital city of the NCR take place before NV, without it being mentioned in NV.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
Guess you never spoke to Chief Hanlon lol
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
This argument is still ongoing?
TyrantTriumphant
Well-known member
While Chief Hanlon states that the NCR has problems they are not on the verge of imminent collapse. The NCR is still strong. Shady Sands is still strong. Any event that could be called the "fall of Shady Sands" would have contradicted New Vegas even if it involved a nuke or not.Guess you never spoke to Chief Hanlon lol
As of the 2281 Shady Sands is still getting water from Hoover Dam thus your idea of a water crisis fails to work. Even in the show itself shows Shady Sands pre-nuke as a perfectly livable city. Your explanation, just like every other one you come up with is just a bunch of baseless speculation and cope.
This discussion of the Fall of Shady Sands reminds me of how several months ago we were talking about the Fall of Fallout on Amazon before it was even released. Looks like that'll be averted for awhile now as well.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
This series would have been a lot better if it was Legion instead of Vault-Tec who destroyed NCR's capital. Hell they even did something like this in the game to Camp Searchlight with a dirty bomb.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
The NCR is not strong, they literally fall like a house of cards if the Courier doesn't side with them.
They're a steadily failing nation in New Vegas that's why they needed Hoover Dam they were declining without it.
The NCR was getting water from the dam but it wasn't enough to starve off famine, just like most of you anti Bethesda Stans don't bother reading the Obsidian lore
Literally the NCR Office of Science and Industry says they were going to get a famine and that was with Hoover Dam support.
IMO this is the one thing I agree with, I'd prefer if the canon reason was a Independent aligned Courier nuked the NCR and Legion.
It'd make sense and choose one of the canon endings
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Warmaster
Well-known member
It makes no sense either way. Whether it was nuked or it was a political collapse. If your capital went through a "fall" 4ish years ago then why would you engage in imperialism, trade and tourism in Nevada? Infrastructure projects as well. Someone must be really detached from reality to defend that.
If it was nuked then it obviously retcons FNV. More so than a political collapse at the capital already does.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
A political collapse doesn't begin immediate it just marks the beginning of its fall, getting to New Vegas could have temporarily revitalized them and delayed its fall but it was still falling regardless.
We're just gonna act like they weren't suffering from massive water shortages BEFORE they got to New Vegas?
Warmaster
Well-known member
"The Fall of Shady Sands"... with a friggin arrow pointing to a mushroom cloud. Its pretty clear what it means to me. I'm just arguing from your side because its obvious you think it was nuked after 2277.
A "Fall" would be mentioned in FNV. And if it was only the beginning in 2277 then obviously by 2281 it would be touched upon in FNV since its years later. Especially if New Vegas had something to do with its revival. Honestly it would be smarter for you to argue that its a clerical error instead of justifying it.
You're just going to pretend this isn't a massive change combined with moving Shady Sands, ghosting Boneyard and then nuking the Capital of the place we spent three games building up?
Oh and your completely right btw. The NCR had plenty of chances to return to the apocalypse. I love how FNV adds ways for the West Coast to return to the apocalypse but instead we get Vault-Tec nuking Shady Sands. Just enhanced the flavor of stupid.
The show stands well on its own. Its a decent show. But for old gamers like me the show falls short and feels almost malicious.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
With Bethesda 5000 years later people in the Fallout verse will still be living in rubble and eat pre war food.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
If you watched the show you'd know the arrow points at the last thing in the chain
The boxes are events that happened, noticed that there's boxes for each "past" event.
1. "A Fall" wouldn't be mentioned so widely in such a brief period, the Roman Empire fell over the course of decades if not centuries you think everyone in their population was made aware of this in the first few years?
2. Despite it not being blatantly mentioned there was always hints of it in the game from the NCR running out of water in the West to potential famine in the next decade, not mentioning the fact the NCR war (One that they're struggling to sustain a couple of miles from their borders) was unpopular to begin with, you think a society that was the opposite of collapsing wouldn't have issue devoting better equipment and troops to the Mojave campaign
The Boneyard change is the only one that bothered me but I don't care about the NCR capital getting nuked anymore than the Enclave Base getting nuked lol, it's just a city the faction still exists.
You didn't hear anyone crying and pissing themselves when the Enclave got destroyed in Fallout 3 like you guys are
Obsidian lore would have had the Tunnlers wipe out the NCR so I think a nuke makes more sense in destabilizing them instead of a bunch of lizard people
Obsidian lore is just as stupid as Bethesda lore honestly just one you turn the blind eye to instead of judging both fairly.
Nah you're just coping tbh
TyrantTriumphant
Well-known member
The NCR is weak in the Mojave. They are still strong as a whole. It is mentioned multiple times that most of their best troops are deployed elsewhere do to political considerations.
The NCR wasn't facing immediate famine in New Vegas. They were facing a potential famine in the coming decades. There is a big difference. And one of the whole points of the quest in which this is mentioned is that the NCR and the OSI are aware of the issue and are taking steps to mitigate it. Thus they want the research from Vault 22.The NCR was getting water from the dam but it wasn't enough to starve off famine, just like most of you anti Bethesda Stans don't bother reading the Obsidian lore
Literally the NCR Office of Science and Industry says they were going to get a famine and that was with Hoover Dam support.
You accuse me of not knowing the lore? You have consistently taken lore out of context, made ridiculous assumptions not supported even in Bethesda lore, and then screamed insults at anyone who points out you're wrong.
Arguing with you is like arguing with a leftist.
That Walton Goggins... he's a good actor isn't he.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
NCR was facing a potential famine due to a rapidly increasing population.
Warmaster
Well-known member
Yeah and look how there's no date for the mushroom cloud and right next to it is "The Fall of Shady Sands". There's no box for the nuclear event either. Surprising how its easy to assume that it means it was nuked in 2277.If you watched the show you'd know the arrow points at the last thing in the chain
The boxes are events that happened, noticed that there's boxes for each "past" event.
1. Why not put "Fall of the NCR" if it was a general fall of a country? The Capital being mentioned with a direct date implies something far different.1. "A Fall" wouldn't be mentioned so widely in such a brief period, the Roman Empire fell over the course of decades if not centuries you think everyone in their population was made aware of this in the first few years?
2. Despite it not being blatantly mentioned there was always hints of it in the game from the NCR running out of water in the West to potential famine in the next decade, not mentioning the fact the NCR war (One that they're struggling to sustain a couple of miles from their borders) was unpopular to begin with, you think a society that was the opposite of collapsing wouldn't have issue devoting better equipment and troops to the Mojave campaign
2. Thanks for arguing my point. None of that was mentioned and Vault-Tec still nuked Shady Sands.
"This doesn't matter to me so I gotta compare it to other things that didn't matter to me." Why even include this in your rebuttal?The Boneyard change is the only one that bothered me but I don't care about the NCR capital getting nuked anymore than the Enclave Base getting nuked lol, it's just a city the faction still exists.
You didn't hear anyone crying and pissing themselves when the Enclave got destroyed in Fallout 3 like you guys are
I get that this conversation is opinionated but saying you don't care about something isn't a valid way to convince me of your point. Especially considering that a lot of people do care about the NCR. You missed the entire point of us bitching about the show dunking on the older games.
You know why you missed it? Because you don't care. You just said it outright.
I love how my moderate takes go nowhere. I don't shit on any Bethesda game. I don't give any scorn to anyone having a different opinion than me. I think the show is decent by itself. Yet I am the one being accused of coping for not liking it.Obsidian lore would have had the Tunnlers wipe out the NCR so I think a nuke makes more sense in destabilizing them instead of a bunch of lizard people
Obsidian lore is just as stupid as Bethesda lore honestly just one you turn the blind eye to instead of judging both fairly.
Nah you're just coping tbh
You mentioned a water crisis yet forgot about it here in your comparison of Bethesda/Obsidian lore. You forgot about Ulysses as well. Nice.
You accuse me of turning a blind eye instead of judging both fairly. Obviously when I said the show stands well on its own and its decent...
This is partially why debating on a forum is hard. Some people legit won't be convinced. Instead ad hominem's roll out.
I could easily discuss how to improve the show without deleting it wholesale. Maybe even add things that I personally would think are cool. I can be fairly positive about things that aren't garbage.
I'll leave my moderate take here again for anyone who likes the show and sees its flaws as an non-casual fan. "The show stands well on its own. Its a decent show. But for old gamers like me the show falls short and feels almost malicious."
If you don't care about the things I care about then obviously my points wouldn't convince you.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
It's obvious where the plot of this series is headed. MC's are going to get the cold fusion technology and NCR will spring back up and the Brotherhood will probably get decimated in the process since they are basically Enclave lite these days.
EDIT: Also Vault-Tec will get wiped out but that's a forgone conclusion.
EDIT: Also Vault-Tec will get wiped out but that's a forgone conclusion.