Alternate History Map Thread
- Thread starter Basileus_Komnenos
- Start date
The 1884 US presidential election in a James Garfield Lives TL:
Red: James Garfield (Republican), 201 electoral votes, 48.2% popular vote
Blue: Grover Cleveland (Democrat), 200 electoral votes, 49.0% popular vote
After his failed 1881 assassination attempt in this TL, Garfield experiences an epiphany that causes him to veto any version of the Chinese Exclusion Act that reaches his desk. This ends up costing him the western states, Indiana, and the nationwide popular vote in 1884, with Garfield only barely winning New York and thus the electoral vote and the 1884 election in this TL.
Red: James Garfield (Republican), 201 electoral votes, 48.2% popular vote
Blue: Grover Cleveland (Democrat), 200 electoral votes, 49.0% popular vote
After his failed 1881 assassination attempt in this TL, Garfield experiences an epiphany that causes him to veto any version of the Chinese Exclusion Act that reaches his desk. This ends up costing him the western states, Indiana, and the nationwide popular vote in 1884, with Garfield only barely winning New York and thus the electoral vote and the 1884 election in this TL.
The 1884 US presidential election in a James Garfield Lives TL:
Red: James Garfield (Republican), 201 electoral votes, 48.2% popular vote
Blue: Grover Cleveland (Democrat), 200 electoral votes, 49.0% popular vote
After his failed 1881 assassination attempt in this TL, Garfield experiences an epiphany that causes him to veto any version of the Chinese Exclusion Act that reaches his desk. This ends up costing him the western states, Indiana, and the nationwide popular vote in 1884, with Garfield only barely winning New York and thus the electoral vote and the 1884 election in this TL.
That is a tight election and it could well be deeply divisive.
Oh, certainly! Garfield would be portrayed as a Chinese-lover and an enemy of the working class in the Western US states in this scenario. But he'll barely be able to win New York because he wasn't perceived as being as corrupt as Blaine was in real life and also because on the East Coast Garfield pro-Chinese stance will garner more sympathy (helped by the fact that there were few Chinese in the East Coast US states and thus much less labor competition from them). Garfield of course loses the popular vote to Cleveland but wins the electoral college and thus the election by just one electoral vote. I suspect that in 1888 Cleveland makes a comeback against Blaine (Garfield's Secretary of State), with Cleveland winning this time around with the same electoral map that he had in 1884 in real life. So, basically, the map above is for 1884 in this TL while our TL's 1884 map gets moved to 1888 instead--though there is also the possibility that some US states, such as the Dakotas, Montana, Idaho, Washington, and Wyoming, get admitted to the Union several years earlier if there is a Republican US President in office between 1885 and 1889.
The 1876 US presidential election: Samuel Tilden vs. James Blaine:
Blue: Samuel Tilden (Democratic), 231 electoral votes, 52.3% popular vote
Red: James Blaine (Republican), 138 electoral votes, 46.6% popular vote
Blaine is perceived as being much more corrupt than Hayes is and thus decisively loses the election to Tilden.
Blue: Samuel Tilden (Democratic), 231 electoral votes, 52.3% popular vote
Red: James Blaine (Republican), 138 electoral votes, 46.6% popular vote
Blaine is perceived as being much more corrupt than Hayes is and thus decisively loses the election to Tilden.
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
I've got two stories here, so lets start with the Mexican American one.
In an alternate Mexican Civil War, the war ends in a Habsburg-Bonaparte victory, Mexico is successfully turned into a Monarchy, at the hoot and hollering of America. Upon the death of Maximiliano I in 1889, his young son would take the throne, and Mexico would go on the Offensive. In many wars to the south of Mexico's borders would be waged, with little protest by any government, that was until Costa Rica's fall. with Mexican soldiers at the border, and with Mexico's own Alliance to Great Britain and France, America would surge to annex Panama and Cuba, both of which not having the political factor to oppose.
The Mexican-American Cold War is tenuous, and many be the powder keg to ignite the next war, between the Central Powers, and the Entente...
In an alternate Mexican Civil War, the war ends in a Habsburg-Bonaparte victory, Mexico is successfully turned into a Monarchy, at the hoot and hollering of America. Upon the death of Maximiliano I in 1889, his young son would take the throne, and Mexico would go on the Offensive. In many wars to the south of Mexico's borders would be waged, with little protest by any government, that was until Costa Rica's fall. with Mexican soldiers at the border, and with Mexico's own Alliance to Great Britain and France, America would surge to annex Panama and Cuba, both of which not having the political factor to oppose.
The Mexican-American Cold War is tenuous, and many be the powder keg to ignite the next war, between the Central Powers, and the Entente...
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
Number 2, or, Zoroastrian Seljuks.
Instead of falling, the Sasanid Empire does not crumble, instead it continues surviving, halting Islam's expanse to the East. Though it gave way to plenty of territory, it never collapsed, leaving India and Central Asia to fall under Zoroastrian influence.
The Sasanid Empire would be a broken shell, constantly defeating off the Byzantine Empire and Islamic Caliphs respectfully, yet it was a corpse walking. Never expecting a general of a conquered turk to take the empire from within. in 1055 a rising and honored general Muhammad bin Dawud Chaghri, later known as 'Alp Alslan' or 'Great Lion' would in a bloodless coup, take over the Empire. Bloodless due to him not spilling blood period, instead he used a noxious gas he discovered, later known as نفس شیطان, or Demon's Breath. It would be later termed by European's as 'Sarin' gas. How he discovered this gas is unknown, but it would be used quite unsparingly, although used often for assassination and conquest, he would take the gas to his Tomb, not to be used until British explorers would later discover his journal in the Seljuk burial grounds known as مقبره امپراطوران, or the Tomb of the Emperors in 1841.
Instead of falling, the Sasanid Empire does not crumble, instead it continues surviving, halting Islam's expanse to the East. Though it gave way to plenty of territory, it never collapsed, leaving India and Central Asia to fall under Zoroastrian influence.
The Sasanid Empire would be a broken shell, constantly defeating off the Byzantine Empire and Islamic Caliphs respectfully, yet it was a corpse walking. Never expecting a general of a conquered turk to take the empire from within. in 1055 a rising and honored general Muhammad bin Dawud Chaghri, later known as 'Alp Alslan' or 'Great Lion' would in a bloodless coup, take over the Empire. Bloodless due to him not spilling blood period, instead he used a noxious gas he discovered, later known as نفس شیطان, or Demon's Breath. It would be later termed by European's as 'Sarin' gas. How he discovered this gas is unknown, but it would be used quite unsparingly, although used often for assassination and conquest, he would take the gas to his Tomb, not to be used until British explorers would later discover his journal in the Seljuk burial grounds known as مقبره امپراطوران, or the Tomb of the Emperors in 1841.
Number 2, or, Zoroastrian Seljuks.
Instead of falling, the Sasanid Empire does not crumble, instead it continues surviving, halting Islam's expanse to the East. Though it gave way to plenty of territory, it never collapsed, leaving India and Central Asia to fall under Zoroastrian influence.
The Sasanid Empire would be a broken shell, constantly defeating off the Byzantine Empire and Islamic Caliphs respectfully, yet it was a corpse walking. Never expecting a general of a conquered turk to take the empire from within. in 1055 a rising and honored general Muhammad bin Dawud Chaghri, later known as 'Alp Alslan' or 'Great Lion' would in a bloodless coup, take over the Empire. Bloodless due to him not spilling blood period, instead he used a noxious gas he discovered, later known as نفس شیطان, or Demon's Breath. It would be later termed by European's as 'Sarin' gas. How he discovered this gas is unknown, but it would be used quite unsparingly, although used often for assassination and conquest, he would take the gas to his Tomb, not to be used until British explorers would later discover his journal in the Seljuk burial grounds known as مقبره امپراطوران, or the Tomb of the Emperors in 1841.
There's no Manzikert equivalent in this TL?
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
I would say they would have their hands tied with Islamic AND Christian invaders popping shots at them to the point I doubt they would be able to get into another Manzikert-esque situation. That is not including the shitfest we like to call inner nobility fucking around going full 'it's meh roight to this four foot square of land! I want my 2,000 men to fight your 2,000 men over it!'
Religion map of Europe and the Near East following successful Crusades:
Very interesting. Not sure about an Indian Hindu empire expanding out of the sub-continent itself? Both because it seemed very localized and also Islam was militarily and politically dominant across most of northern India during this period OTL and I can;t really see Christian successes in N Africa and the Levant changing that.
Also interesting that you have Orthodoxy rather than the Coptics or Catholics being the dominant religion in a non-Muslim Egypt, or is this representing the religion of the militarily dominant state and much of the population could still be Coptic/Muslim?
Guessing from Byzantium being so strong the PoD is in a better 1st crusade with the empire regaining secure control of most of Anatolia rather than the internal conflict of OTL?
What happened with the Mongols or are they butterflied?
Present-day world religion map without the creation of Islam:
No. Too much projection from OTL. For instance Sikhism may well not occur without the influence of Islam. There may or may not be a failed reformation that splits the Catholic church as OTL but the territories could well be substantially different both in Europe and also overseas. You do have all of Germany and the Netherlands as Catholic but that's about the only difference I can see from OTL. Similarly the Catholic/Protestant split across much of the rest of the world.
Whether the Reformation will eventually occur is very much an open question. On the one hand, there will still be issues with Catholic Church corruption, indulgences, et cetera, but on the other hand, I don't know how the lack of Muslim threat will affect things. And Yes, you are absolutely correct that the post-Reformation borders in Europe could be different if a Reformation will still eventually occur in Europe in this TL.
Also, what effect did Islam have on the development of Sikhism?
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
As said plenty is left to be seen. Firstly, without the Ottoman Empire, much of history would not have happened. Secondly, Protestantism can't exist without Martin Luther, without him it would likely never have happened, or instead be a much more bastardized version. Whilst still on the topic of Christianity, South Korea is Christian. They make up a large bulk of the religious population (27.6), with the only other group being the Buddhist (15.5%) and the Animist (0.8%), the rest tend to be of the Irreligious type. then there is the lack of Mormons. If Protestantism exists, then Mormons are bound to spring up.Present-day world religion map without the creation of Islam:
Then you have the Mazdaism, or Zoroastrian faith as it is. it would be MUCH larger than you have it, more than likely spreading into Afghanistan and Central Asia as a whole. I doubt it would be halted, as before Islam rose Zoroastrians were spreading quite quickly.
Sikhism can still exist, of more than like with a Zoroastrian flavor.
Protestantism can still exist but develop differently with different leaders due to the butterfly effect, obviously. The major grievances against the Catholic Church (corruption, the sale of indulgences, et cetera) might perhaps still eventually be there.
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
of course, but it likely won't be Protestantism. It'd more than likely share more with Hussites or Orthodoxy than Protestantism. To call it Protestantism is to call a chicken a goose.
I don't know the details but it emerged I think during the Mughal empire period as a merger of ideas from Islam and Hinduism and also was fairly drastically changed by persecution by Muslims. Before that IIRC it was fairly pacifist but became distinctly martial as a result. Basically just some of the things I've heard/read at assorted times in the past.
I would expect that like any large and powerful organisation there will be corruption and infighting. Think that basically the thing that made the reformation different in Catholic history was that it was a formation initially started for reforming the church that neither got suppressed/subsumed or became the dominant idea but ended up with a [or more than one given the multiple forms of Protestantism] separate organization with a clearly separate identity. As such in TTL the differences in doctrine and ideas could well be different but just as the Catholic and Orthodox branches will almost certainly separate there is likely to be some split in Catholicism and also a more widely spread Orthodox faith.
What about viewing it as being comparable with the Lollards?
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
Possible. I could most certainly see it.