49ersfootball
Well-known member
Ok. I'll check it out!No, I meant what I said, the literal East Indonesia of history. There's a clickable link right there...
Ok. I'll check it out!No, I meant what I said, the literal East Indonesia of history. There's a clickable link right there...
Alright then, here’s a slightly more plausible one.
What if France comes of the better in what is essentially the second “Hundred Years War?” (Otherwise known as the long 18th century, from Blenheim to Waterloo). Basically, the wars against Britain that France lost, it wins in this timeline.
My first prediction is there’s no Napoleonic Age as, if Royal France keeps on clapping everyone’s cheeks, then there’s not nearly as much impetus for revolution. Indeed, if Louis XIV achieves his dream of uniting the crowns of France and Spain, we will have “Pax Francia” instead of “Pax Britannica.”
Could perhaps see the rise of a Catholic 'Latin' bloc across the Mediterranean between this Fascist Italy, Salazar's Portugal and the Spain of Franco (or another caudillo, such as Mola Vidal) if the Nationalists still win there, plus Dollfuss' Austrofascist regime (which Mussolini tried to protect against Hitler IRL) too. Just need Charles Maurras' Action Francaise to turn the February 6 Crisis in 1934 into their March on Rome moment and these Latins may well vault from 'Mediterranean annoyance' to 'actual contender for interwar continental hegemony', methinks.PC: Fascist Italy in a No Nazi Germany world.
In a scenario where the Nazi Party remains an obscure movement, or if Hitler was killed off during WWII, how would Fascist Italy function? Would they remain a Mediterranean pariah with its own collection of puppet states? I'm thinking that perhaps in this scenario, the Germans have their own successful socialist revolution, but in the midst of this kind of chaos, someone out there would replace Karl Liebnecht and Rosa Luxemburg with some left wing nutjob who's basically the communist version of Hitler and Stalin combined.
Your scenario involving a sane, vanilla flavored right-wing German government coming to a rapprochement with Britain would be a lot more plausible than a Red Germany, given that the way the Freikorps had suppressed the socialist uprising was rather efficient in its own right. The inter-European squabbles would be something the communists would gladly take advantage of. Scandinavia on the other hand, might be vulnerable to Soviet antics, given that Finland almost fell to communist rule during the Finnish Civil War.Could perhaps see the rise of a Catholic 'Latin' bloc across the Mediterranean between this Fascist Italy, Salazar's Portugal and the Spain of Franco (or another caudillo, such as Mola Vidal) if the Nationalists still win there, plus Dollfuss' Austrofascist regime (which Mussolini tried to protect against Hitler IRL) too. Just need Charles Maurras' Action Francaise to turn the February 6 Crisis in 1934 into their March on Rome moment and these Latins may well vault from 'Mediterranean annoyance' to 'actual contender for interwar continental hegemony', methinks.
As to Germany, I don't necessarily think 'no Hitler' = 'Red Germany'. The Freikorps certainly didn't need the Nazis (who did not exist at the time) to stomp out the 1919 commie revolutionaries. I think the Prussian military aristocracy (Junker dudes like Von Schleicher, basically) supplanting the Weimar Republic with a non-Nazi but still hard-right, militarist and revanchist regime in the '30s is likelier than the KPD taking over, perhaps also coupled with a monarchist restoration as the likes of Von Papen tried to engineer. Ernst Thälmann, the historical KPD leader for much of the Weimar period, was a Stalinist lickspittle who prioritized fighting the 'social fascists' - the SPD, still hated by German Communists for suppressing the Spartacists - and thus made a united left-wing front impossible: I see no reason why he or his bosses in Moscow & the Comintern would've changed that strategy if confronted by ascendant Prussian militarists (as seemed the much likelier outcome for most of the Weimar years) than ascendant Nazis, who didn't exactly make a secret of not liking & actively fighting the KPD either.
A sane far-right Germany might find grounds for rapproachment with Britain against the Latin Fascist-Integralist team - a Protestant Anglo-German alliance (with some Balkan oddballs standing in the way of Mussolini's expansion, like Yugoslavia and Greece, thrown in - the former was a Little Entente member historically, but would no longer be such since Italy has ambitious designs on its territory and France would probably have to throw it under the bus to make nice with Mussolini) perhaps, or at least British acquiescence and quiet support for them in their quest to overturn Versailles to keep the Latins from screwing up Europe's balance of power? (Other Slavic countries, such as Czechoslovakia & Poland, will probably gravitate to the Latins to oppose Germany's territorial designs instead of course.) If they come to blows, Stalin waits to pick off the winner...
However if you must have a Red Germany, then I think you'd just end up with WW2 being fought between the Communist German-Soviet alliance and everyone else, including Italy, possibly as early as the mid-20s depending on how certain leadership struggles go (namely, whether Trotsky takes over the USSR and consequently is in a position to go all-in on his world revolution with the help of this Red Germany). Assuming Team 'Everyone Else' wins, you might then see the inversion of Fascism's and Communism's reputations in mainstream opinion, with the former being thought of as 'our (liberal democracies') ally in WW2' and the more 'acceptable' authoritarian/totalitarian extremist ideology for them zany youths to indulge in while the latter becomes thought of as utterly reprehensible & beyond the pale like Nazism/Fascism is today.
All german democratic goverment were mad enough to made secret deals with soviets,becouse they hated Poland.PC: Fascist Italy in a No Nazi Germany world.
In a scenario where the Nazi Party remains an obscure movement, or if Hitler was killed off during WWII, how would Fascist Italy function? Would they remain a Mediterranean pariah with its own collection of puppet states? I'm thinking that perhaps in this scenario, the Germans have their own successful socialist revolution, but in the midst of this kind of chaos, someone out there would replace Karl Liebnecht and Rosa Luxemburg with some left wing nutjob who's basically the communist version of Hitler and Stalin combined.
Didn't read all that, but why the fuck would we Bulgarians want to embroil ourselves in another mess, in particular a mess cooked up by Prodigious Albion which fucked us over after the Russo-Turkish war of 1878, right after BW1 and 2 which cost us dearly to the point where the post war situation was referred to a "national catastrophe"?Here's an idea I had, which probably won't manage to develop as soon as I wanted because of the lawsuit my father did against me, my sister and my mother but here it goes :
Part 1 : Endear
Entente : (last minute) and rebelling nationalities in the AH empire
Alliance : (plus the colonies/dominions)
POD :Bulgaria barely manages to win the 2nd Balkan War. Last minute Anglo-German Alliance of convenience and they still piss off the US because there is no stop to the unrestricted submarine warfare. Wilson dies before OTL.
The premise of this story are different set of WW1 alliances done when I was studying a summary of Wolfang Reinhard's book :
Treaty of Marseille : The defeat of powers of the Quintuple Alliance of the German Empire, British Empire, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria and the Netherlands was considered perhaps the biggest power shift and shock the world had seen.
The victorious powers of the United States, France, Greece, Romania, Serbia, Portugal, Italy and Japan immensely rewarded themselves with the bounties of the the "Nordic" empires supposedly possessed. Africa saw the British colonies pass to an US administration in the case of Southern (Christian) Nigeria, Gold Coast and the Union of South Africa (which would incorporate Botswana and South Rhodesia), while it would also annex Uganda and Tanganyika it would also split a third of British East Africa (modern day Kenya/Chenia) with the Kingdom of Italy, who was also getting British Somaliland and the whole of Abyssinia (whose last king had betted on a swift Entente defeat), meanwhile the "young" Portuguese republic would avenge the humiliation of the Pink Map (as well as the proposed Anglo-German partition of Portuguese colonies) and get Northern Rhodesia as well German South West Africa, which together with Mozambique and Angola would be merged into the new colony of Portuguese Zambezia. The other republic, France, was instead given Gambia to merge with its colony of Senegal and British Guinea would be merged with French Guinea (today the Republic of Sierra Guinea) even though it took concessions with the administration of now president Thomas Riley Marshall (who succeeded Wilson after his lethal stroke before the conference).
Asia was also a big place for change : Anglo-German-Austro-Hungarian concessions in China were given mostly to Japan, with the exception of Hong Kong and Shangai who were taken to the United States, but it got compensated with most of the Dutch East Indies with the notable exception of West Timor who was unified into Portuguese East Timor and turned into Portuguese Timor. Malaysia was a whole topic of debate between the Japanese Empire and the United States, because even though the Empire of the Rising Sun already occupied British Malaysia the US administration wanted something as well, the Japanese relented and offered Sabah, a region long claimed by irredentist Filipinos and Dutch Guinea, like Australian and German Guinea was given to the US as a protectorate. Australia and New Zealand were likewise in a similar condition, with calls of total annexation from both a part of the US public and US Congress, but the president was disuassed from actually annexing the two entities just like with Canada and would instead become territories at least temporarily.
The former Ottoman Empire was very shaken to say the least, because it had suffered a serious defeat and subsequent occupation by Anglo-Austro-Hungarian-German-Bulgarian troops and fought a brutal war of independence against them and lost Konstantinye to Greece and a good portion of Eastern Anatolia to the First Republic of Armenia (which would be invaded by the Russian Soviet Socialist Union and turned into an "autonomous" "republic"), and could only mantain clearly Kurdish (at the time categorized as "Mountain Turks") Turkish-majority areas which could be connected with what would become the First Syrian Republic. Jerusalem and the land of Palestine remained a hotbed for heated discussion because of the differences between the victors and it was settled on being an international mandate with rotating "governors" with duties being split among American, French and Italian diplomats and with the Armenian, Christian and Jewish quarters of Jerusalem becoming the "Tangiers of the Levant" and the Muslim quarter of Jerusalem attached to the French-mandate Syrian Federation.
Europe was shaken up as well because of the amount of bloodshed had costed for to the French, Italians and the rebellions : Poland was reborn as a nation, Czechoslovakia became its own country, Italy gained the promised lands in the east that France had promised such as Istria,Dalmatia,Laibach,Kotor,Fiume and Trieste much to the dismay of the new Yugoslav government. France had planned to totally partition Germany but managed to only establish a Rhenish-Baden-Wuttenberghian buffer-puppet state republic in order to not border directly with Germany and take back Alsace-Lorraine as well as adding the Dutch-British Caribbean and South American possessions to its colonial empire, Brazil would gain the British and German Atlantic islands.
I haven't touch Canada or India for the simple reason I have no goddamn what would happen with them, India I can see the Kingdom of Afghanistan nabbing Kashmir, West Punjab (maybe even East Punjab?), Sind and Balochistan (or at least a land corridor that will connect them to the sea).
Canada for me would be awesome turning into a republic and not be annexed Harry Turtledove style (maybe only loosing access to the Pacific Coast?).
Yeah that's a point where I didn't think about it much. Probably would make more sense if Bulgaria had gotten everything it wanted in the first Balkan War and then still allied with Germany.Didn't read all that, but why the fuck would we Bulgarians want to embroil ourselves in another mess, in particular a mess cooked up by Prodigious Albion which fucked us over after the Russo-Turkish war of 1878, right after BW1 and 2 which cost us dearly to the point where the post war situation was referred to a "national catastrophe"?
The only reason we were fighting in those wars was to get territories inhabited by Bulgarians and return ourselves to the state of the Bulgaria as per the San Stefano treaty territories where the Bulgsrian Exarchate already had primacy and that were ethnically Bulgsrian already.
Why the hell do we need to play more stupid games and win more stupid prizes?
Especially in a situation where we will be massively stretched and exhausted by the rprvious wars and in need to hold on to and consolidate whate we already have?
Neutral Bulgaria!
FIFYNeutral Bulgaria for teh win!
Portugal had been a British protectorate practically since the Restoration in 1640 ...Portugal did the same even after the disgrace of the Pink Map 30 years prior.
There is people who have done giga-Bulgaria already... Most notably was the Footprint of Mussolini but that was an enormous Italu-wank and USSR screw for no reason...not to mention how convenient some characters became madly inept or villainous or how one too many were LITERALLY nuke trigger happy there.FIFY
Yeah but they could have said no or joined the other side... Because of Africa...I distinctively remember how in theory WW1 in Africa wouldn't have fronts...until the Germans fucked around and found out invading Portugal and South Africa or other regions.Portugal had been a British protectorate practically since the Restoration in 1640 ...
London: Jump!
Lisbon: How high?
"No" or "neutral". Joining the Central Powers is a no-no.Yeah but they could have said no or joined the other side...
FIFY
No wonder it is known as the most western of the eastern European shitholes.Portugal had been a British protectorate practically since the Restoration in 1640 ...
London: Jump!
Lisbon: How high?
The Central Powers were far from the evil monsters the entente described them as."No" or "neutral". Joining the Central Powers is a no-no.
Have you checked my list? Portugal is clearly on the Entente side...just an English-less Entente"No" or "neutral". Joining the Central Powers is a no-no.
PLC and HRE launches Long Turkish War with a random Polish Lord as King of Bulgaria or a random Ruthenian Lord as King of Serbia? Since the PLC did have at one point held some control over Moldavia, they could also have vassalized Wallachian as well.The Central Powers were far from the evil monsters the entente described them as.
Austria-Hungary, as bad as it was, was a much more advanced place vs. Serbia.
Now, I want a few ideas regarding how San-Stefano Bulgaria comes into existence.
Maybe there is some huge scandal in the UK which takes down the Disraeli government, Gladstone was actually very much pro-our side.
And since a lot of people on the forum are anti-Russia simps I propose you write some scenarios where Bulgaria gets liberated from Turkey by someone other than Russia.
Unlikely.PLC and HRE launches Long Turkish War with a random Polish Lord as King of Bulgaria or a random Ruthenian Lord as King of Serbia? Since the PLC did have at one point held some control over Moldavia, they could also have vassalized Wallachian as well.
Nope, we are keeping the Orthodoxy.There’s also the option of a Uniate Bulgaria that is more or less an Austrophile (pro-Austrian), plus a Uniate Serbia that keeps its pro-Western stance.
And let us not forget that this was the age of Empire, so it might be possible for some less romantic and humanitarian interests to come into play, like for example some nascent Italian desire for colonial expansion into Africa and the eastern med.In a 6 October 1875 letter from Caprera, "To my brothers of the Herzegovina and to the oppressed of Eastern Europe", Garibaldi wrote:
The Turk must go away to Broussa. He descended like a wolf, passing the Bosphorus, devastating, murdering, and violating those populations who gave us the Pelasgi, who were, perhaps, the first civilisers of Europe. He must no longer tread upon that part of the world kept by him in misery. At Broussa, with his vices, depredations, and cruelties, he will find enough people of Asia Minor to torment and plunge into desolation. Rise, then, heroic sons of Montenegro, Herzegovina, Bosnia, Servia, Therapia, Macedonia, Greece, Epirus, Albania, Bulgaria, and Roumania! All of you have a most splendid history. Among you were born Leonidas, Achilles, Alexander, Scanderbeg, and Spartacus. And today even, among your robust populations, you may still find a Spartacus and a Leonidas. Do not trust to diplomacy. That old woman without a heart certainly deceives you. But with you are all the men of heart throughout the world. England herself, till today favourable to the Turks, has manifested to you by means of the obolus and sympathy of one of her great men that she ought to prefer the alliance and gratitude of a confederation of free peoples to the decrepit confederation of The Empire of the Crescent. Then to Broussa with the Turk! Only thus can you make yourself independent and free. On this side of the Bosphorus the fierce Ottoman will always be under the stimulant of eternal war, and you will never obtain the sacred rights of man.[58][59][60][61]